MGTOW A Culture Killer?

[rockfox]

Lead by example. If they don't how can expect change. Show that the current opinion of marriage is wrong. Teach that the current marriage is wrong. Don't hide and cry about things they're not willing to do actually do something about.

They are teaching marriage is bad. They are teaching that having children is bad. So if G-d says marriage is good and children are a blessing but MGTOW is teaching the opposite, are they not committing a sin? MGTOW is a philosophical beleif that denies G-d and promotes the self sovereignty of man, but there is no sin in that?

Again, MGTOW is not a homogeneous movement, but from what I've seen of it their problem isn't the historical concept of marriage but the present legal regime. You may point to some objecting to marriage period, but the bottom line is the movement would not exist if it were not for the current legal regime and the abysmal quality of modern women.

And there is no way to 'example' around the bad laws surrounding marriage. I agree marriage and children are supposed to be a blessing. But for far too many men that is no longer true. You can argue to the contrary but they've seen too many men run through the grinder of the divorce industry to believe pie in the sky claims.

As much as we try to live a Biblical marriage today, it no longer exists. It's illegal. When you marry you sign up for the anti-God corrupted form with a 50-80% chance of you and your children's lives being destroyed in divorce.

I don't agree with the anti-God or the 'fiddle while it burns' strains within MGTOW. But it is perfectly reasonable within both the scriptures and church history to avoid marriage and devote oneself to God. If doing so allows them to utilize their resources to help family who are raising the next generation while also tipping the sex ratio balance by their choice to drive an Isaiah 4:1 repentance, they've done a good thing.

I don't go around condemning them because it does no good and sounds to me like self righteous posturing. These are people who are hurting, who are victims; thats why all the anger and vitriol. They need love, understanding, engagement. Their prescription may be wrong they're correct about the diagnosis which means their eyes are more open to the truth of reality than the average women worshiping Christian. I prefer to meet them on common ground with understanding and point them in the direction of the truth.

[no offense taken Kevin, I will debate issues with boldness and take what I dish out. Its not personal, iron sharpens iron.]

 

[rockfox]

My interpretation stage would have to account for the additional fact that there are women in existence who do not accept the feminist position (at whatever level) and who truly want a Biblical head of household. Thus, in application, the first two facts listed means that I must be ‘ware that there are dangerous women out there, and the last fact means that not all of them are dangerous. So I must choose carefully the latter.

Therein lies the rub. There are not enough quality women to go around, not even a fraction of what is necessary. And even among so-called good women, she still lives in a culture that encourages rebellion and rewards divorce. There is no way to legally prevent her from burning it all down and the divorce rate within the church is no different than that in the world.

I badly want solutions to this quandary but I haven't seen many. Some have advocated game, or religion or polygamy as a solution to stronger marriages but I've yet to see any statistical evidence proving a particular approach would work.

 

[Verifyveritas76]

I'm not saying that I have the answers, but my approach has been to make the grass greener inside the fence than anywhere else. Not monetarily, but emotionally and spiritually

A woman who knows that she is truly loved and her contributions are appreciated and that her role within the family is critical and has meaning, coupled with a man , under authority, whose intentions and character and vision and fidelity to the family she can rely on, and trust in, is the beginnings of a stable long term marriage.

 

[Verifyveritas76]

There are not enough quality women to go around, not even a fraction of what is necessary.

I have to say that I'm not too concerned about this aspect. Just like in hunting deer, it's not the abundance of deer or the lack of other hunters that increases your success. These only increase the likelihood of perhaps seeing these elusive creatures in their natural habitat.

The prepared alert hunter may not bring home a deer every time, but all it takes is one that fits his criteria for him to be successful - and everybody else can just keep hunting and telling stories about how many deer they saw that day but just couldn't get a shot at (cause they were running away) or the ones they shot at and missed - or wounded.

 

[Verifyveritas76]

There is no way to legally prevent her from burning it all down

Not necessarily true, but most men are either unaware or unwilling to operate their lives within the legal framework that gives the most protection to their family unit

While there is no legal way to guarantee the success of a marriage, I'm not sure that it's a bad thing. Ezekiel 16 presents the case that even God, with a ketubah of 613 'legal' boundaries and the best husband possible could not guarantee a successful marriage.

Perhaps our focus should be more on the imperfect husbandman side of the equation than the quality or quantity of imperfect plants that he's given us to nurture and perfect.

 

[Nikud]

I don't agree with the anti-God or the 'fiddle while it burns' strains within MGTOW. But it is perfectly reasonable within both the scriptures and church history to avoid marriage and devote oneself to God. If doing so allows them to utilize their resources to help family who are raising the next generation while also tipping the sex ratio balance by their choice to drive an Isaiah 4:1 repentance, they've done a good thing.

The thing is theres no strain's of anti G-d when it comes to MGTOW. The core doctrinal Statement (that ALL MGTOW sites claim even though they have diffrent flavors and are a veritable rainbow of personal beleifs) of self-ownership, where the modern man preserves and protects his own sovereignty above all else denies G-d. I have no problem with men remaining celibate to devote themselves to G-d, but you can't put MGTOW in that grouping.

These are people who are hurting, who are victims; thats why all the anger and vitriol. They need love, understanding, engagement

Lets say Israel retaliates to a suicide bombing by Hamas with a missile strike. There will be collateral damage. A son of a person who was unitendely killed is a victim. That victim is in pain, hurting, full of anger and vitriol. That victim is approached by Hamas who pats him on the head tells him he's justified and before you know it you got another suicide bomber participating in a war of attrition.

I agree that they need love and engagement but not their philosophy. That doesn't mean coddle them and blow smoke up there A## about what they are doing. I understand that alot of the MGTOW guys have suffered horrible in relationships or got screwd by the system. So have a lot of men who went on to have good if not great marriages because they didn't surrender to despare and take refuge in hatred. MGTOW is a philosophical beleif that doesn't benifit any one. Especially the disenfranchised.

As for my statements being Self righteous Posturing, by defintion No because they're not unfounded statements. Yes because I do hold the belief that any train of though from a Beleif system that denys G-d is morally deficient therefore any train of though that is inspire by scripture is morally superior.

Perhaps our focus should be more on the imperfect husbandman side of the equation than the quality or quantity of imperfect plants that he's given us to nurture and perfect.

I agree with VV76 about where the focus should be. It's a sad fact but Men have not been vigilant in watering the garden or pruning the vines. The current state of affairs is because to many Men abandoned following scripture or twisted it to pursue their own intrest.

Never once have I heard anyone on the MGTOW sites man up and be accountable for any failure of marriage it was always her or the current legal sytems fault. History repeats over and over.

Genesis 3:12

The man said, “The woman whom you gave to be with me, she gave me fruit of the tree, and I ate.”

 

[Nikud]

Again, MGTOW is not a homogeneous movement, but from what I've seen of it their problem isn't the historical concept of marriage but the present legal regime. You may point to some objecting to marriage period, but the bottom line is the movement would not exist if it were not for the current legal regime and the abysmal quality of modern women.

What's the ratio of abysmal quality of modern women to abysmal quality of modern man.

How many self righteous MGTOW and Christian men, are blaming women for their failure to lead? How many Men are actually willing to put in the hard work to make a marriage work?

Typical responses and true meaning of those responses.

It cant be done the system is against us. Hard work won't do any good, its not fair, she's the one not doing any work, so ill just remove my self from the situation. I'll call it abstaining so my pride won't be wounded any futher. Though what I'm really saying is I just surrender, I cede the battle, I forgo any attempts to make a change, I relinquish any authority I have, I capitulate to the will of the secular government I cry out agaisnt, I buckle under the weight of responsibility because I'm too weak willed to fight and ask G-d for strength, I'll submit to what I call tyranny and sit by and let other Men fight......but it's not my fault it's hers because women are bad.

G-d created man for conflict, whether your a believer or not, and instead of resolving conflict too many men are taking their toys home to play in their room by themselves.

To address MGTOW's beleif that's there's no point in fighting when when your going to be slaughtered. I''ll leave that to William Shakespeare.

“A coward dies a thousand times before his death, but the valiant taste of death but once. It seems to me most strange that men should fear, seeing that death, a necessary end, will come when it will come.”

 

[Nikud]

That can't be done with broad, nebulous, semi-autonomous internent cultures and cliques. No leader, no centralized meeting board, and no real hierarchy means anyone who calls themselves MGTOW kind of is. It's like you trying to police anyone on the Internet that calls them a Christian Polygynist. You can control Biblical families, but you can't control being vaguely associated with random individuals who call themselves pro-poly Christians on the internet.

That's one of my points about no accountability.

Let's take BF for an example they have statement of beleif and a code of conduct. The Administrators and moderators keep us accountable. I know because I've been asked to censor myself, rightful so, I was making statements that were confusing to others and could reignite a hot topic agruement (which has nothing to do with the mission of BF) that had raged on the site before. They still give us the leeway to discuss a wide variety of topics in a civil manner regardless if it is a widely held beleif or not. They will challenge those beleifs and make statements from time to time about controversial statements identifying them as those of individuals and not of BF.

It's up to the individuals who run the MGTOW sites to do the same. Yet they dont. In fact it doesn't matter if your civil or not any who question the validity of defined MGTOW doctrine (man's self governance, and seperation from women) is acussed of being a woman, mocked, and booted from the forums. It's not that they can't police themselves, it's that they only choose to police those who aren't suckling from the same soured teat.

MGTOW folks could possibly use some sympathy, depending on where they're at, but their views are not tolerable.

I can empathize with being hurt by bad relationships. I can empathize with being screwed over by a broken system. I can never sympathize with them.

Sympathize-
agree with a sentiment or opinion.
synonyms: agree with, support, be in favor of, go along with, favor, approve of, back, side with

Here's a little back story on me before I met my wife.

I was in a "Toxic" relationship. My high school girlfriend. I was a soilder on active duty and had full time job and one part job trying to support the spending habits of a girlfriend who had no concept of budget struggling to keep from going into debt. I did this for years. During which I found out she cheated on me with numerous men and aborted a child which the circumstances would say was mine. (The guy she was cheating on me at the time had an accident involving a bull years before that made it impossible to be his) All throughout our relationship she accussed me of cheating. It all accumulated one night and resulted in me getting stabbed 9 times in the arm with an ice pick. The female police officer wrote it up as self defense because she (the officer) felt threatened by my anger. When it was said and done the system and army regs meant I had to continue paying for the apartment for her because of the lease even though I lost my BAQ and I moved back into the barracks.

That being said. I was not living for G-d. I was not fulfilling my responsibility to lead her. I never attempted. I just tried to please her, while she needed me to guide her spiritually. Yes she is accountable for her actions, but would her actions have been the same if I had been doing what I was suppose to do? The most likely out come if I had been living for G-d and willing to accept responsibility to lead her is we would have broken up in highschool, thus avoiding everthing that happened.

Years later....I meet my wife.

The funny thing is two months before I met my wife I decided I wasn't meant to be married not because what happened with my ex or me being angry with all women and a screwed up system. I just felt that it would be easier to be on my own and I wasnt was meant to be around people in general. I got a job on a fishing boat in Alaska. My plan was to live out in the Bush by myself except durring fishing season. I missed crab season and I was waiting for cod season. The day before I was suppose to leave my friend says he'll give me 300 dollars to help him with a side job. I needed the spending money and agreed. We get to the job and I found out he lied it was his ex's moms birthday and he didn't want to show up alone. After I made him pay me the 300 dollars we went in. That's where I met my wife. That night at 2 am I called my mom she asked me if I was on the bus to Seattle. I told her no there was no way I could leave now I just met the woman i was going to marry. That was 13 years ago, 4 children (we lost one) ,built a plumbing company lost it, ended up in a wheelchair for a few years got out, built a farm lost it, tough times, lean times, good and rough. None of it possible without G-d and my wife. All a blessing. I could have pissed it away if I had the MGTOW mind set and surrendered. I think of all the guys out there buying into the MGTOW BS and wonder how many are losing out on the chance to find their Jessica, their families, their blessings.

All because they judge all women by of the actions of some. Because they allowed hate to fill them up, they surrendered to self pitty, they gave up.

Nothing good can come from anything that denies G-d. How can anyone expect something good without G-d.

 

[Verifyveritas76]

All because they judge all women by of the actions of some.

Loved it Kevin. Thanks for sharing.

I think a lot of these guys have misdiagnosed alpha behavior with lone wolf behavior. The alpha leads the pack, protects it, guides it to success and reproduces, all for the benefit of the pack. These guys are more lone wolf than alpha.

 

[Mojo]

Here's a little back story on me before I met my wife.

Dude, how do we follow up that????

If ever there was a mic drop this was it.

Thanks for sharing.

 

[Grey]

It's up to the individuals who run the MGTOW sites to do the same. Yet they dont. In fact it doesn't matter if your civil or not any who question the validity of defined MGTOW doctrine (man's self governance, and seperation from women) is acussed of being a woman, mocked, and booted from the forums. It's not that they can't police themselves, it's that they only choose to police those who aren't suckling from the same soured teat.

Well yeah, they don't have Christian grace being that they're not Christians. We are also adamant about our doctrines, but we have grace.

I can empathize with being hurt by bad relationships. I can empathize with being screwed over by a broken system. I can never sympathize with them.

Sympathize-
agree with a sentiment or opinion.
synonyms: agree with, support, be in favor of, go along with, favor, approve of, back, side with

I do agree with their sentiments about feminism, and about the problems with the current system. To me it goes beyond that, but I stand by my words.

Here's a little back story on me before I met my wife.

I was in a "Toxic" relationship. My high school girlfriend. I was a soilder on active duty and had full time job and one part job trying to support the spending habits of a girlfriend who had no concept of budget struggling to keep from going into debt. I did this for years. During which I found out she cheated on me with numerous men and aborted a child which the circumstances would say was mine. (The guy she was cheating on me at the time had an accident involving a bull years before that made it impossible to be his) All throughout our relationship she accussed me of cheating. It all accumulated one night and resulted in me getting stabbed 9 times in the arm with an ice pick. The female police officer wrote it up as self defense because she (the officer) felt threatened by my anger. When it was said and done the system and army regs meant I had to continue paying for the apartment for her because of the lease even though I lost my BAQ and I moved back into the barracks.

The manosphere as a whole would have warned you off of this, even before she cheated.

The manoshpere is kind of a gateway to understanding deeper things about society, nature, and life. It's not good to stay there, but it has some good insights.

That being said. I was not living for G-d. I was not fulfilling my responsibility to lead her. I never attempted. I just tried to please her, while she needed me to guide her spiritually. Yes she is accountable for her actions, but would her actions have been the same if I had been doing what I was suppose to do? The most likely out come if I had been living for G-d and willing to accept responsibility to lead her is we would have broken up in highschool, thus avoiding everthing that happened.

Contrarily, if you were doing what you were supposed to do you would not have been so eager to please, and would not have allowed her to drag you along so far.

Possibly you could have changed her, but the likelihood is small and not really worth thinking about.

Years later....I meet my wife.

The funny thing is two months before I met my wife I decided I wasn't meant to be married not because what happened with my ex or me being angry with all women and a screwed up system. I just felt that it would be easier to be on my own and I wasnt was meant to be around people in general. I got a job on a fishing boat in Alaska. My plan was to live out in the Bush by myself except durring fishing season. I missed crab season and I was waiting for cod season. The day before I was suppose to leave my friend says he'll give me 300 dollars to help him with a side job. I needed the spending money and agreed. We get to the job and I found out he lied it was his ex's moms birthday and he didn't want to show up alone. After I made him pay me the 300 dollars we went in. That's where I met Jessica. That night at 2 am I called my mom she asked me if I was on the bus to Seattle. I told her no there was no way I could leave now I just met the woman i was going to marry. That was 13 years ago, 4 children (we lost one) ,built a plumbing company lost it, ended up in a wheelchair for a few years got out, built a farm lost it, tough times, lean times, good and rough. None of it possible without G-d and Jessica. All a blessing. I could have pissed it away if I had the MGTOW mind set and surrendered. I think of all the guys out there buying into the MGTOW BS and wonder how many are losing out on the chance to find their Jessica, their families, their blessings.

Ah, so you were one blessing away from being something like a MGTOW yourself. Possibly you are more angry at them because were once closer to them?

I've also been married a dozen years with four children, and just got a girlfriend we wish to add to our family last month. But I never gave time of day to a girl like your high-school girl. Options like her arose when we looked for a second wife and I somewhat wondered if there where any more pure and precious daughters of Christ around to find as a second. But the foolish, strange, odious, and contentious woman Proverbs says to avoid, not to rehabilitate. You may at most provide her with pastoral care if the situation arises, but its folly to think that a good husband will fix her.

I'm very glad you received a virtuous women as a prize from God. There is nothing better.

All because they judge all women by of the actions of some. Because they allowed hate to fill them up, they surrendered to self pitty, they gave up.

Nothing good can come from anything that denies G-d. How can anyone expect something good without G-d.

Over-generalization is folly. But the hate is good. Hate the wicked. Hate unrighteousnesses. Hate those that hate Christ. One who will not hate what he ought to hate cannot be trusted to love what he ought to love.

MGTOW does not hate enough, that is its folly. It suffices itself to hate feminism but fails to hate humanism. Hating humanism as a whole is tantamount to hating the sin in humanity as a whole, it makes one hate the sin in ones self. And that is where the Gospel begins. That is where desperate repentance begins. This is the parable of the mote and the log.

If MGTOW even managed to hate properly it would be something good. But it doesn't even do that. Like you said, it just surrenders.

 

[rockfox]

Not necessarily true, but most men are either unaware or unwilling to operate their lives within the legal framework that gives the most protection to their family unit.

VV can you expound more about this legal framework? Privately or in another post? I've read hints of such and have some hunches myself but haven't seen anything firm on the matter. As a father of fast growing children who would like to see them one day form stable marriages this is of extreme interest to me.

 

[Verifyveritas76]

VV can you expound more about this legal framework? Privately or in another post? I've read hints of such and have some hunches myself but haven't seen anything firm on the matter. As a father of fast growing children who would like to see them one day form stable marriages this is of extreme interest to me.

Sure. I'll pm you

 

[Nikud]

The manoshpere is kind of a gateway to understanding deeper things about society, nature, and life. It's not good to stay there, but it has some good insights.

It might be good for pointing out flaws in societital beleifs as long as you remember that its a product of a specific group's social convention. I've read alot of the blogs and the post of forums that pop up under the manosphere tag, like at manosphere.com. You have guys like Roosh V who make statements like it should be legal to rape women on private property (despite much later ,after problems arouse from it, claimed he was trying to make a parody) ,that train of thought and those types discussions which perminates throughout the blogs and forums, to me, discredits pretty much anything there or attached to it. You can dig through a pile of sh*t and find a kernel but then your covered in sh*t afterwards. If you need a place to start i guess theres worst places as long as you dont linger there. When it comes to issues relating to men, masculinity, and life, I believe it's best to look to scripture for Authority.

Possibly you are more angry at them because were once closer to them?

There but for the grace of G-d go I. I see how I could of gone down that path, but my anger wasn't directed at women. It was at society for a wide variety of reasons, everybody ,and myself. It's the things that are too close for comfort that anger us the most. Looking at MGTOW I see a fun house mirror reflection of what I could have become and that's close enough.

But I never gave time of day to a girl like your high-school girl

When we were in highschool, she wasn't like that. She changed during/after my first deployment. She tried to fill the loneliness with stuff then.....well.....in the end it was for the best it helped make understand the value of a good woman.

 

[Grey]

It might be good for pointing out flaws in societital beleifs as long as you remember that its a product of a specific group's social convention. I've read alot of the blogs and the post of forums that pop up under the manosphere tag, like at manosphere.com. You have guys like Roosh V who make statements like it should be legal to rape women on private property (despite much later ,after problems arouse from it, claimed he was trying to make a parody) ,that train of thought and those types discussions which perminates throughout the blogs and forums, to me, discredits pretty much anything there or attached to it. You can dig through a pile of sh*t and find a kernel but then your covered in sh*t afterwards. If you need a place to start i guess theres worst places as long as you dont linger there. When it comes to issues relating to men, masculinity, and life, I believe it's best to look to scripture for Authority.

Seriously though, did you look at Darlocks work? https://dalrock.wordpress.com/

It's top notch. He's a married Christian that bases his views on sound theology and roundly critiques both secular and feminized-christian culture. There's quite a lot more in the Christian wing of the manosphere and it's not really all that hard to find. Even Vox Day is right 3/4ths of the time, and a Christian. Once you understand the PUA leanings (not that he actually endorses it) and stuff like that the 1/4th garbage is easy to see through. I wouldn't link the fellow but he's not bad.

Roosh is a trash PUA, there's no doubt about that.

The issue with the authority of scripture is this: Most people really aren't capable of rightly dividing the word of truth on their own. They will go to the feminized-churches for their interpretations, they might see through lesbian-Anglican priestesses but they will fall for the idea of following womens whims as if it was the holy spirit, because the case is made just so and they have corrupted notions of chivalry that lead them to pedistalize women in ways they shouldn't be. The manosphere is for normal men, laymen, common people. They don't go out of their way to read and understand complex issues stringing out on their own, they look for people who already have answers and they go with that.

As far as it goes I am not capable of rightly dividing the word of truth on my own. I understood the basic idea of polygamy when I first read scripture, to be sure, but without the works of Madan and Ochino, without the incident with Luther and Philip de Hesse, without honest commentators and without folks like Augustine explicitly giving their reasons for monogamy (which are wrong, the fact that he was honest with he promoted it was important) I would not be able to walk with confidence in my stance. I DO set out and study on my own and stand on the authority of Scripture and the Saints. But even I need more than scripture alone to make that stand and properly understand the why and how polygamy is ok and the why and how it has been banned.

There but for the grace of G-d go I. I see how I could of gone down that path, but my anger wasn't directed at women but at society for a wide variety of reasons, everybody ,and myself. It's the things that are too close for comfort that anger us the most. Looking at MGTOW I sees fun house mirror reflection of what I could have become and that's close enough.

I understand what you mean. Your reaction is entirely natural. And like I said, I stand with you in saying they are intolerable.

When we were in highschool, she wasn't like that. She changed during/after my first deployment. She tried to fill the loneliness with stuff then.....well.....in the end it was for the best it helped make understand the value of a good woman.

Ah, that's too bad. Do you think if she had your child before then it would have been different? Oh well, such things are past. You have your proper gift from God now, and He knows best who is best for you. I'm glad you have your Jessica, and that your family is blessed through good and hard times.

 

[Red4252]

Ok just having spoken to Kevin on this topic yesterday all I have to say is wow

 

[rockfox]

It is common in and out of the church to place all the blame of divorce on men. I reject that. It takes two to make a marriage work and 70-90% of the time it is the wife who is filing divorce in violation of her vows before God and the scriptures teachings on divorce and marriage.

 

[andrew]

A woman who knows that she is truly loved and her contributions are appreciated and that her role within the family is critical and has meaning, coupled with a man , under authority, whose intentions and character and vision and fidelity to the family she can rely on, and trust in, is the beginnings of a stable long term marriage.

Nailed it. I need to find a place for this out on the website somewhere. And virtually every clause in that 'mission statement' could be the seed of a separate thread in the mens section of the site. How do we do this IRL and thus secure the long-term viability of our families?

 

[andrew]

VV can you expound more about this legal framework? Privately or in another post? I've read hints of such and have some hunches myself but haven't seen anything firm on the matter. As a father of fast growing children who would like to see them one day form stable marriages this is of extreme interest to me.

And now for a word from our sponsors....

Next summer's retreat may turn out to be the Best BF Retreat Ever, and one of the topics that's going to receive some serious teaching and roundtable discussion and workshop attention "legal formalities and practicalities for the plural family" (including information presented by VV76, Ron, and me, at least). Stay tuned for more information on this year's summer conference and retreat as plans come together. Further bulletins as events warrant.

We now return to our regularly scheduled programming....

 

[eye4them]

serious teaching and roundtable discussion and workshop attention "legal formalities and practicalities for the plural family"

Perhaps this could include a video or audio recording, or maybe just a transcript (from an audio recording) for interested parties that shan't be in attendance.