Alright! Hey guys. So, here I am. 6:06 AM, after being woken up 4 times to comfort my daughter (as my wife takes care of our newborn), having pretty much given up hope on getting any sleep tonight haha. So instead, I'm finally taking the plunge and registering an account to participate on the forum! I've definitely been a lurker for at least a year now.
So I guess I'll just share a little bit of what brought me here..but be prepared, this is gonna be a long one. Go big or go home, right?
I was raised Roman Catholic, attended mass and partook of the sacraments of my own volition till I was in my sophomore year of college... asked a lot of questions of a lot of priests (that I never could get good answers to) and eventually fell away completely, having never truly believed in the first place.
I became a pretty passionate agnostic, borderline Bible-basher. I would publicly mock Biblical claims/positions on social media and in person when the opportunities presented themselves (whether it be creationism or the idea that homosexuality was sinful....that was a hyge stumbling block for me having several gay family members). Of course, I had never actually read the Bible (surprise, surprise!)
Shortly after I left the Catholic church, though, I stumbled on 9.11 truth. Let's just say that absolutely flipped my world upside down and dramatically changed me as a person. From that time on--even though I was just beginning the period of my life as a completely rebellious pagan--I deeply cared about and valued truth.
Needless to say, after some years of regrettable, sinful debauchery in college (mainly drunkenness/ promiscuity), I made my way down every truther rabbit hole you can IMAGINE...damaging/ruining many relationships along the way as a result of my unsaved, spiritually empty behavior when discussing such things (let's just say I called a lot of people "sheep" over the years, to put it mildly). But one thing persisted--ultimately my pursuit was truth, and my goal was to share the truth that I found with others.
Finally one day in 2013 I found myself on a facebook thread with a female truther friend who happened to also be a Christian. Is was basically arrogantly and rudely scoffing at her for not believing in evolution. Thankfully, God used her to intellectually backhand me and basically torch me in a debate. I had no answers tl her claims/questions and was left looking foolish. So, being a naturally prideful person, I don't like being wrong and made sure to study and seek to prove her wrong. ...the rest, you could say, is history. Once you realize molecules-to-man evolution is a lie, Genesis stops reading like a fairy tale and starts reading like exactly what it is--the true account of creation. Of course I started learning about Biblical archaeology and how science actually confirms creation, etc... Also I had some very real demonic encounters (things crawling on me while im awake in bed/re-occuring nightmares where succubi would try to rape me and would change from a woman to a demon right in front of me right before it happened...very disturbing).
Well, as the months wore on, I was living in sin my girlfriend at the time (now my wife). One night of May 2014 I was watching a YouTube documentary called "Age of Deceit" (highly recommend), and it literally put all the pieces of the puzzle together for me. Everything I had learned about in various rabbit holes but never could quite connect to a bigger picture, had been made prefect sense of by the Biblical worldview presented therein. At the end of it, I knew it in my spirit--the Bible is the ultimste source of all truth. And that means Jesus is my Lord. I didn't know much of anything else at that point, but those foundational truths I was certain of. So at 2 AM (with my live-in girlfriend asleep in the other room) I prayed a form of the sinners prayer and gave my life to Christ. Immediately upon finishing that prayer, when I was still speaking, the Holy Spirit came upon me. I had uncontrollable full body shivers from head to toe that just kept going for what felt like minutes--to the point where I was wondering if they were going to stop! It was the most surreal physical confirmation of truth that I have ever experienced.
Within days I had dragged Kelly out ao we could buy Bibles. She was a cautious participant, but probably just assumed this was another temporary rabbit hole I'd be spending some time in. But also, I was studying the reality of demonic possession and it was really freaking her out and upsetting her.
Not surprisingly, after only a couple weeks of reading the gospels and studying, I realized pretty quick I was living in sin, but I didn't know how to repent without risking losing Kelly forever (even though we lived in the same apartment, she and I grew unbelievably distant in the weeks after my new birth...like we instantly had nothinf of significance in common). So the first time I ever prayed and meant it, I went to bed next to Kelly and just told God, "Lord I just want to please you. Please help me. I love her and care about her and don't want to lose her. What am I supposed to do?"
That VERY night I was visited by God in a dream, and He was walking right beside me as I basically repeated my prayer (though I didn't look at Him). I just knew it was God, I could sense His authority but also He was so welcoming and warm)...as I was asking "what am I supposed to do", He kind of cut me off with a laugh that a dad would aim at a son who asked a silly question...and said, "It's really sinple Paul. All you have to do is turn away from your sin."
I immediately woke up and sat up in bed. I had gotten my answer! Within days Kelly had moved out and I had broken up with her (which was extremely hard, as I was almost certain that would be the end of our story). But I promised her that we would not be talking at all, this was a real breakup. I said if we were mesnt to be together, I trusted that God would make it happen.
About four months later (after finding comfort one time by reaching out to God in a moment of sorrowful desperation) she had a dream of her own...she was running toward God and felt the greatest love she had ever experienced...like the love one would have for their father but infinately more. And as she ran to His open arms He went to grab her and hug her but she slipped right through his grip snd fell to the darkness as He faded out of view. She immediately woke up and knew she never wanted to feel that again, and submitted herself to Christ, and believed.
Shortly thereafter, hen she indicated to me her faith was genuine through a couple conversations that blew my mind, I finally agreed to have her over for dinner. Little did she know that I promised myself I wouldn't see her again unless I knew I'd make her my wife
. We were engaged three months later and married 6 months after that! God is SO GOOD. He honored my obedience by grsnting Kelly the new birth (completely apart from my influence) and uniting us together again.
Now we've got two beautiful children, a home a wonderdul marriage and are blessed beyond measure. The Lord has been so, so gracious to us.
Now that my (our) testimony is out of the way--let's get to what brings me to this forum. I am HUGE into apologetics. Apologetics helped bring me to Christ. I have spent the bull of my free time since becoming a Christian studying the Word and listening to sermons/lectures/podcasts/debates about various topics of biblical doctrine and study. Truth seeking is my passion.
Well, I worked midnights the first two years of our marriage, and would often walk to the corner of a mains street by our apartment and get breakfast and bring my Bible and read. The main street is a bastion of liberalism in the city, with pride flags hanging from the street poles almost the entire summer. Every kind of whacky belief system you could find represented on any given day on Elmwood ave.
So one day I was alone reading my Bible having breakfast, and the tables behind me were all pulled together like a meeting room and there were like 12 people around it. I couldn't help but overhear their discussion as I was only a few feet from them. It was the local chapter of a polyamory meetup! They were talking about all kinds of sexual immorality...spouse swapping, rsndom encounters, homosexuality...you name it. I immediately started praying for an opportunity to witness to these lost souls (even though I had no idea what that could look like and was actually pretty nervous). Sure enough...a few minutes after praying, I overhear one of the girls say she was a Christian. And then someone else chimes in and says they are too. I immediately felt the conviction of the Spirit like "there's your opportunity--the time is now!" So...terrified and shaking, I stand up (with other people eating at tables around us btw) and say something to the effect of, "I'm sorry, I couldn't help but overhear some details of your conversation for the last twenty minutes, and--correct me if I'm wrong--I thought I just heard a couple people say they were Christians. Well...I'm a Christian too *held up my Bible* and I would really like to know how exactly you reconcile your behavior with what is written in this book."
Oh boy...the one girl immediately made a totally unbiblical defense and I don't even remember what I said but the Spirit gave me utterance and I politely shot it down with a scripture real fast. Then another person attempted.. Shot that too. It was very evident that these two were nominal false converts. But then a man near me at the table was respectfully pleading with me that there are biblical arguments and so i started getting into it with him.
Now the lead organizer was visibly frustrated as peiple began murmuring and muttering to themselves and basically yelled "this isn't why we're here, so if you could mind your own business that would be great!" So I apologized for interrupting, said I meant no offense and sat back down and opened my Bible, even though I was shaking so bad I couldn't concentrate lol. I truly believe God used me to csst His righteous judgement on those people because people started frustratedly getting up to leave right after that and within minutes I had broken up their entire sin celebrating party.
But the allegedly Christian guy--I still say he hsd no business being there and encouraging them-- and the lead organizer (atheist) ended up coming up to my table. He apologized for getting frustrated and we actuslly sat together and talked for almost 2 hours. I was witnessing to the atheist and the christian guy was trying to reason with me through the scriptures to show that polygyny was not a sin, and was Biblical (he had one wife amd two kids but was seeking another).
As expected, I thought God had placed me there not only to witness to this atheist, but also to rescue this guy from his grievous doctrinal error. But to my utter shock, disbelief and disappointment, I could notndefend forced monagamy. Like at all. Every passage I would turn to he would have a reasonable answer to. I had no real answers to any of his arguments. This was a mind bender for me. HOW could I not defend monagamy only from the Bible?! Surely I must be missing something. I was definitely skeptical when several of his arguments involved a "knowledge of the original language", but I was stumped nonetheless.
So that began a three year on and off journey of studying this subject and bouncing it off of my brothers in Christ who I respect. The forst year was spent mainly trying to prove this guy wrong. I had full confidence hw WAS wrong, I just thought I was missing something in understanding how he was wrong or why.
After two years of on and pff study, getting no good answers from ANYONE or anywhere, I was beginning to think that maybe I was indeed missing something...something I hadn't even imagined as a possibility yet.
Finally about a year ago I took a headlong plunge and devoted copious amounts pf time to understsnding and studying biblical marriage/divorce/adultery/polygyny. Eventually I became wholly convinced that it is quite obviously not a sin, but rather is a Biblically lawful and valid form of marriage that has never been prohibited in any way in Scripture (restricted for various reasons, yes..but never prohibited).
My wife knew that I had been studying this on and off for a while but obviously was put off when i really dove in. But she was willing to study it out with me over the span of like 6 months...we were constantly talking about polygyny and the Biblical arguments for and against. About 3 months ago, after being brought to tears one night because she knew it was true but didn't want to accept it..she finally mustered the coursge to pray to God to help her know His truth on the matter (she had been refusing to ask Him for peace about it because she knew if she did that He would make her ok with it, and she was afraid od that because she didn't want to be ok with it). Soon thereafter, she shared eith me that her wall hsd been torn down, and she knows that polygyny is acceptable in God's sight--likely even a blessing. Seeing God work in her like this and humble her was honestly besutiful--it made me love her even more. I am DO grateful to be married to a woman who desires to submit to God's truth even if it makes her uncomfortable.
I think that's a big problem in the church today...Christian's assume that once they are believers they are going to be comfortable with everything in God's Word; not so. But I digress...
Just the other day I handed her my phone with a long article by a Christian condemning modern polygyny trying to use the Bible to do so. I was so proud of her as she spotted almost all the fallacies and errors without my help. It assures me that we are truly on the same page in the Lord and she really understands this truth.
So after lurking these boards and absorbing perspectives for quite a while...I figured that I should probably join the community! Especially since my wife is fully on board as well now. Well, not in the sense that she wants a sisterwife in her heart yet. But the fact that she is open to it and accepts it as a morally permissible reality.
Two of four elders st my church now know my position on this. One of them was extremely unwelcoming to the discussion and refused to even walm through the scriptures with me. Basically indirectly accused me of being a horrible husband for even studying this subject. Very disheartening. The other is much more open and planning to meet with me to walk through the scriptures soon.
Although I am not financially stable at the moment to take on another wife if I were called to, it is a goal I am working toward. And I'm not sweating it, because I know if God wants me to tame on another wife, the finances will come in due time.
But I am all about spreading this truth. As an apologist at heart, I am pretty rock solid confident that I can prove to just about anyone that polygyny is not inherently a sin. I am SO grateful that God has reveales this precious truth to us. I've already stated my position publicly in a facebook live video recently, for better or worse. Only had a couple people block me after messaging me asserting that I'm basically a pervert struggling woth fleshly desires who is leading people astray. ...not as bad as I expected! And it actually generated multiple hours long discussions with various believers who eventually conceded that it's not a sin.
Guys...this is an easy position to convince believers with intellectual integrity who are ideologically consistent. But I'm sure you know that that's just the trouble...believers like that are few and far between.
I truly believe that God wants to use polygyny to restore the Godly family unit and combat the destruction of the progressive movement. Big families with multiple wives and many kids being raised as warriors for Christ. Exactly what the enemy DOESN'T want.
I am honored to be sharing in this precious truth eith all of you. And who knows...maybe one of you unmarried ladies out there will join my family one day! Haha jussst kidding...kind of?
Sorry for the novel! God bless you all, and peace of Christ be with you. Looking forward to getting to know you
So I guess I'll just share a little bit of what brought me here..but be prepared, this is gonna be a long one. Go big or go home, right?
I was raised Roman Catholic, attended mass and partook of the sacraments of my own volition till I was in my sophomore year of college... asked a lot of questions of a lot of priests (that I never could get good answers to) and eventually fell away completely, having never truly believed in the first place.
I became a pretty passionate agnostic, borderline Bible-basher. I would publicly mock Biblical claims/positions on social media and in person when the opportunities presented themselves (whether it be creationism or the idea that homosexuality was sinful....that was a hyge stumbling block for me having several gay family members). Of course, I had never actually read the Bible (surprise, surprise!)
Shortly after I left the Catholic church, though, I stumbled on 9.11 truth. Let's just say that absolutely flipped my world upside down and dramatically changed me as a person. From that time on--even though I was just beginning the period of my life as a completely rebellious pagan--I deeply cared about and valued truth.
Needless to say, after some years of regrettable, sinful debauchery in college (mainly drunkenness/ promiscuity), I made my way down every truther rabbit hole you can IMAGINE...damaging/ruining many relationships along the way as a result of my unsaved, spiritually empty behavior when discussing such things (let's just say I called a lot of people "sheep" over the years, to put it mildly). But one thing persisted--ultimately my pursuit was truth, and my goal was to share the truth that I found with others.
Finally one day in 2013 I found myself on a facebook thread with a female truther friend who happened to also be a Christian. Is was basically arrogantly and rudely scoffing at her for not believing in evolution. Thankfully, God used her to intellectually backhand me and basically torch me in a debate. I had no answers tl her claims/questions and was left looking foolish. So, being a naturally prideful person, I don't like being wrong and made sure to study and seek to prove her wrong. ...the rest, you could say, is history. Once you realize molecules-to-man evolution is a lie, Genesis stops reading like a fairy tale and starts reading like exactly what it is--the true account of creation. Of course I started learning about Biblical archaeology and how science actually confirms creation, etc... Also I had some very real demonic encounters (things crawling on me while im awake in bed/re-occuring nightmares where succubi would try to rape me and would change from a woman to a demon right in front of me right before it happened...very disturbing).
Well, as the months wore on, I was living in sin my girlfriend at the time (now my wife). One night of May 2014 I was watching a YouTube documentary called "Age of Deceit" (highly recommend), and it literally put all the pieces of the puzzle together for me. Everything I had learned about in various rabbit holes but never could quite connect to a bigger picture, had been made prefect sense of by the Biblical worldview presented therein. At the end of it, I knew it in my spirit--the Bible is the ultimste source of all truth. And that means Jesus is my Lord. I didn't know much of anything else at that point, but those foundational truths I was certain of. So at 2 AM (with my live-in girlfriend asleep in the other room) I prayed a form of the sinners prayer and gave my life to Christ. Immediately upon finishing that prayer, when I was still speaking, the Holy Spirit came upon me. I had uncontrollable full body shivers from head to toe that just kept going for what felt like minutes--to the point where I was wondering if they were going to stop! It was the most surreal physical confirmation of truth that I have ever experienced.
Within days I had dragged Kelly out ao we could buy Bibles. She was a cautious participant, but probably just assumed this was another temporary rabbit hole I'd be spending some time in. But also, I was studying the reality of demonic possession and it was really freaking her out and upsetting her.
Not surprisingly, after only a couple weeks of reading the gospels and studying, I realized pretty quick I was living in sin, but I didn't know how to repent without risking losing Kelly forever (even though we lived in the same apartment, she and I grew unbelievably distant in the weeks after my new birth...like we instantly had nothinf of significance in common). So the first time I ever prayed and meant it, I went to bed next to Kelly and just told God, "Lord I just want to please you. Please help me. I love her and care about her and don't want to lose her. What am I supposed to do?"
That VERY night I was visited by God in a dream, and He was walking right beside me as I basically repeated my prayer (though I didn't look at Him). I just knew it was God, I could sense His authority but also He was so welcoming and warm)...as I was asking "what am I supposed to do", He kind of cut me off with a laugh that a dad would aim at a son who asked a silly question...and said, "It's really sinple Paul. All you have to do is turn away from your sin."
I immediately woke up and sat up in bed. I had gotten my answer! Within days Kelly had moved out and I had broken up with her (which was extremely hard, as I was almost certain that would be the end of our story). But I promised her that we would not be talking at all, this was a real breakup. I said if we were mesnt to be together, I trusted that God would make it happen.
About four months later (after finding comfort one time by reaching out to God in a moment of sorrowful desperation) she had a dream of her own...she was running toward God and felt the greatest love she had ever experienced...like the love one would have for their father but infinately more. And as she ran to His open arms He went to grab her and hug her but she slipped right through his grip snd fell to the darkness as He faded out of view. She immediately woke up and knew she never wanted to feel that again, and submitted herself to Christ, and believed.
Shortly thereafter, hen she indicated to me her faith was genuine through a couple conversations that blew my mind, I finally agreed to have her over for dinner. Little did she know that I promised myself I wouldn't see her again unless I knew I'd make her my wife
. We were engaged three months later and married 6 months after that! God is SO GOOD. He honored my obedience by grsnting Kelly the new birth (completely apart from my influence) and uniting us together again. Now we've got two beautiful children, a home a wonderdul marriage and are blessed beyond measure. The Lord has been so, so gracious to us.
Now that my (our) testimony is out of the way--let's get to what brings me to this forum. I am HUGE into apologetics. Apologetics helped bring me to Christ. I have spent the bull of my free time since becoming a Christian studying the Word and listening to sermons/lectures/podcasts/debates about various topics of biblical doctrine and study. Truth seeking is my passion.
Well, I worked midnights the first two years of our marriage, and would often walk to the corner of a mains street by our apartment and get breakfast and bring my Bible and read. The main street is a bastion of liberalism in the city, with pride flags hanging from the street poles almost the entire summer. Every kind of whacky belief system you could find represented on any given day on Elmwood ave.
So one day I was alone reading my Bible having breakfast, and the tables behind me were all pulled together like a meeting room and there were like 12 people around it. I couldn't help but overhear their discussion as I was only a few feet from them. It was the local chapter of a polyamory meetup! They were talking about all kinds of sexual immorality...spouse swapping, rsndom encounters, homosexuality...you name it. I immediately started praying for an opportunity to witness to these lost souls (even though I had no idea what that could look like and was actually pretty nervous). Sure enough...a few minutes after praying, I overhear one of the girls say she was a Christian. And then someone else chimes in and says they are too. I immediately felt the conviction of the Spirit like "there's your opportunity--the time is now!" So...terrified and shaking, I stand up (with other people eating at tables around us btw) and say something to the effect of, "I'm sorry, I couldn't help but overhear some details of your conversation for the last twenty minutes, and--correct me if I'm wrong--I thought I just heard a couple people say they were Christians. Well...I'm a Christian too *held up my Bible* and I would really like to know how exactly you reconcile your behavior with what is written in this book."
Oh boy...the one girl immediately made a totally unbiblical defense and I don't even remember what I said but the Spirit gave me utterance and I politely shot it down with a scripture real fast. Then another person attempted.. Shot that too. It was very evident that these two were nominal false converts. But then a man near me at the table was respectfully pleading with me that there are biblical arguments and so i started getting into it with him.
Now the lead organizer was visibly frustrated as peiple began murmuring and muttering to themselves and basically yelled "this isn't why we're here, so if you could mind your own business that would be great!" So I apologized for interrupting, said I meant no offense and sat back down and opened my Bible, even though I was shaking so bad I couldn't concentrate lol. I truly believe God used me to csst His righteous judgement on those people because people started frustratedly getting up to leave right after that and within minutes I had broken up their entire sin celebrating party.
But the allegedly Christian guy--I still say he hsd no business being there and encouraging them-- and the lead organizer (atheist) ended up coming up to my table. He apologized for getting frustrated and we actuslly sat together and talked for almost 2 hours. I was witnessing to the atheist and the christian guy was trying to reason with me through the scriptures to show that polygyny was not a sin, and was Biblical (he had one wife amd two kids but was seeking another).
As expected, I thought God had placed me there not only to witness to this atheist, but also to rescue this guy from his grievous doctrinal error. But to my utter shock, disbelief and disappointment, I could notndefend forced monagamy. Like at all. Every passage I would turn to he would have a reasonable answer to. I had no real answers to any of his arguments. This was a mind bender for me. HOW could I not defend monagamy only from the Bible?! Surely I must be missing something. I was definitely skeptical when several of his arguments involved a "knowledge of the original language", but I was stumped nonetheless.
So that began a three year on and off journey of studying this subject and bouncing it off of my brothers in Christ who I respect. The forst year was spent mainly trying to prove this guy wrong. I had full confidence hw WAS wrong, I just thought I was missing something in understanding how he was wrong or why.
After two years of on and pff study, getting no good answers from ANYONE or anywhere, I was beginning to think that maybe I was indeed missing something...something I hadn't even imagined as a possibility yet.
Finally about a year ago I took a headlong plunge and devoted copious amounts pf time to understsnding and studying biblical marriage/divorce/adultery/polygyny. Eventually I became wholly convinced that it is quite obviously not a sin, but rather is a Biblically lawful and valid form of marriage that has never been prohibited in any way in Scripture (restricted for various reasons, yes..but never prohibited).
My wife knew that I had been studying this on and off for a while but obviously was put off when i really dove in. But she was willing to study it out with me over the span of like 6 months...we were constantly talking about polygyny and the Biblical arguments for and against. About 3 months ago, after being brought to tears one night because she knew it was true but didn't want to accept it..she finally mustered the coursge to pray to God to help her know His truth on the matter (she had been refusing to ask Him for peace about it because she knew if she did that He would make her ok with it, and she was afraid od that because she didn't want to be ok with it). Soon thereafter, she shared eith me that her wall hsd been torn down, and she knows that polygyny is acceptable in God's sight--likely even a blessing. Seeing God work in her like this and humble her was honestly besutiful--it made me love her even more. I am DO grateful to be married to a woman who desires to submit to God's truth even if it makes her uncomfortable.
I think that's a big problem in the church today...Christian's assume that once they are believers they are going to be comfortable with everything in God's Word; not so. But I digress...
Just the other day I handed her my phone with a long article by a Christian condemning modern polygyny trying to use the Bible to do so. I was so proud of her as she spotted almost all the fallacies and errors without my help. It assures me that we are truly on the same page in the Lord and she really understands this truth.
So after lurking these boards and absorbing perspectives for quite a while...I figured that I should probably join the community! Especially since my wife is fully on board as well now. Well, not in the sense that she wants a sisterwife in her heart yet. But the fact that she is open to it and accepts it as a morally permissible reality.
Two of four elders st my church now know my position on this. One of them was extremely unwelcoming to the discussion and refused to even walm through the scriptures with me. Basically indirectly accused me of being a horrible husband for even studying this subject. Very disheartening. The other is much more open and planning to meet with me to walk through the scriptures soon.
Although I am not financially stable at the moment to take on another wife if I were called to, it is a goal I am working toward. And I'm not sweating it, because I know if God wants me to tame on another wife, the finances will come in due time.
But I am all about spreading this truth. As an apologist at heart, I am pretty rock solid confident that I can prove to just about anyone that polygyny is not inherently a sin. I am SO grateful that God has reveales this precious truth to us. I've already stated my position publicly in a facebook live video recently, for better or worse. Only had a couple people block me after messaging me asserting that I'm basically a pervert struggling woth fleshly desires who is leading people astray. ...not as bad as I expected! And it actually generated multiple hours long discussions with various believers who eventually conceded that it's not a sin.
Guys...this is an easy position to convince believers with intellectual integrity who are ideologically consistent. But I'm sure you know that that's just the trouble...believers like that are few and far between
. I truly believe that God wants to use polygyny to restore the Godly family unit and combat the destruction of the progressive movement. Big families with multiple wives and many kids being raised as warriors for Christ. Exactly what the enemy DOESN'T want.
I am honored to be sharing in this precious truth eith all of you. And who knows...maybe one of you unmarried ladies out there will join my family one day! Haha jussst kidding...kind of?
Sorry for the novel! God bless you all, and peace of Christ be with you. Looking forward to getting to know you
