Pesach 5778 coming up!

[IshChayil]

It's that time of year again.
Pesach begins at sundown on Fri, 30 March 2018.
Shabbat & Passover, double the fun!

Please remember to get the chamets out of your houses; start early and get it done.
Let's use this thread as a general place to post ideas, ask questions, etc. about Passover Observance.
For any of you folks who literally slaughter your own food for this holiday, may I humbly suggest you reconsider if you aren't a pro-butcher?
I have a friend here who went up in the mountains with one group and the men decided to be manly men and slaughter their own and my buddy almost threw up. The animal IS NOT KOSHER if you don't kill him the right way, namely humanely. Eating a lamb or goat that had a horrible death is the same as eating pork.

OK back to positive mode! Please share recipes, music ideas, how your family does a seder, how you involve the kids and keep them from boredom, ask questions; this is arguably the most important chag of the year. If we start planning now we'll be so glad we did! If it's your first time celebrating Passover don't be shy, ask questions there are lots of folks here who can help.
chag sameach!
חג שמח

 

[The Revolting Man]

Well I will be butchering a lamb/goat. I'm no professional but it's very doable. I don't like slitting their throats but shooting them is bound to break bones so that's my only option.

And the point of this is that it's a little hard to "humanely" slaughter something. No matter how you do it you're killing it and there's no way to do that without some pain and discomfort.

I have to figure out the order of events. I don't plan on doing a seder per se but hope to replicate what's described in the Law. Which means I need to read what that is.

 

[mystic]

Temple Grandin says a few things about this in one of her books.

She was also the subject of a great movie.

 

[PeteR]

If I could tease you guys with some tasty recipes... A dozen or so recipes on my blog at: https://natsab.com/2015/03/26/pesach-delicacies-pics/

Here's a personal fav, Dark Chocolate and sea salt encrusted matzah truffles. Always a HIT!!

 

[Mojo]

I saw a kosher chef on television say that he slaughters with a super sharp knife to the throat. The animal seems to not know the throat was violated. The loss of blood causes it to faint first, then die.

Am I wrong? I's a city slicker and don't eat kosher....so who knows?

 

[PeteR]

I saw a kosher chef on television say that he slaughters with a super sharp knife to the throat. The animal seems to not know the throat was violated. The loss of blood causes it to faint first, then die.

Am I wrong? I's a city slicker and don't eat kosher....so who knows?

That's about right. Rapid major blood loss causes fainting. No time for psin or awareness.

 

[Mojo]

The key is the uber sharp blade, right?

 

[PeteR]

Yes. Uber sharp.

Kosher kill is one slice that severs jugular without cutting the spinal cord. Heart keeps beating while blood quickly bleeds out.

 

[IshChayil]

Well I will be butchering a lamb/goat. I'm no professional but it's very doable. I don't like slitting their throats but shooting them is bound to break bones so that's my only option.
And the point of this is that it's a little hard to "humanely" slaughter something. No matter how you do it you're killing it and there's no way to do that without some pain and discomfort.
I have to figure out the order of events. I don't plan on doing a seder per se but hope to replicate what's described in the Law. Which means I need to read what that is.

I understand many in the break-away Hebrew Roots movement these days ignores what brothers Judah/Levi have to say on torah observance; I understand the motivation is to"do it right" or be more true to the text or more literal but sometimes the older brother really knows what's best and the Hebrew roots guys are flying by the seat of their pants (unnecessarily).

It's not just about a sharp enough knife, it's about not hitting nerve clusters, or trachea, etc. Animal suffering is part of torah as well.
@Ancient Paths describes the theory great but really this is something that comes from experience. IMHO it's one of those mitzvahs that if you can't do it right for sure, then better not to do it at all, or to delegate because otherwise we'll be in violation of another mitzvah.
Not even to mention that "He is our paschal lamb" so do we really need to be killing animals today?

This is not just directed to Zec, I really really hope my Hebrew roots brothers will follow the older Messianic example in this case; there is wisdom here for those who will hear it and torah holds animal suffering in much higher regard than traditional Western Christian values.

Hope I didn't step on too many toes. I hope anyone considering to slaughter their own lamb/goat will prayerfully reconsider.
שלום šālōm!

 

[IshChayil]

The key is the uber sharp blade, right?

Über sharp and über skillful from years of practice...
There's a reason kosher butchers make bank...

 

[PeteR]

@IshChayil please understand, I do NOT do kosher kill or sacrifice. That's for Levites, in the Temple for the Altar. I answer purely for the academic.

As for daily neat consumption, even in the Land, I do not know of a requirement for "kosher" kill. Yes, we should want to be humane, but the only mitzvah I know is drain the blood and while there are ideal conditions to do this, if we butcher a goat we shoot it, immediately hang and perform several cuts to let gravity take over.

For Pesach, we'll be in Jerusalem this year, so things may be different, but out in the nations, we get lamb at the market and otherwise just do a simple Seder that meets the Exodus and Gospel remembrance passages.

 

[PeteR]

@IshChayil as to rabbinic rulings, there is a great deal of wisdom there, worthy of study, but apart from written Torah, I do not find it binding. It is a good guide, but like the long history of Christian sages, I think we can agree that both sides have gotten some things right, some things wrong and some things VERY wrong.

Christianity's rejection of Torah is an epic fail. Judaiam's rejection of the Messiah was an equally epic fail. Both groups can learn from the other.

As my most recent book articulates (happy to mail you a free copy, PM your address) I believe Abba's two witnesses in the earth are Jew and Christian. Each needs the other and both will be restored as we learn to walk together and learn from the other.... Christians need Torah, Judaism needs Messiah. We are halves of the whole, incomplete without the other.

 

[andrew]

Christianity's rejection of Torah is an epic fail.

Christians need Torah

Just a gentle reminder that AP speaks for himself in this matter, and this is not the position of Biblical Families.

 

[IshChayil]

@IshChayil please understand, I do NOT do kosher kill or sacrifice. That's for Levites, in the Temple for the Altar. I answer purely for the academic.

As for daily neat consumption, even in the Land, I do not know of a requirement for "kosher" kill. Yes, we should want to be humane, but the only mitzvah I know is drain the blood and while there are ideal conditions to do this, if we butcher a goat we shoot it, immediately hang and perform several cuts to let gravity take over.
.

Very cool you'll be in the land for pesach!
AS far as kashrut in the land, ABSOLUTELY humane slaughter is part of the requirement for hechsher symbol. All shocters are trained in the humane slaughter and this has long been part of kashrut for meats.
Bava Metzia 32A - Prohibits causing pain to animals and this is binding on Butchers. Any kosher food you buy in Israel or elsewhere will have followed by this ruling.

BTW: general place for deep torah discussion is over in the
Biblical Families: Messianic Jews/Hebrew roots Gentiles forum.

 

[IshChayil]

Just a gentle reminder that AP speaks for himself in this matter, and this is not the position of Biblical Families.

Gentle reminder or Gentile reminder? Bwaaah hahaha

 

[The Revolting Man]

I understand many in the break-away Hebrew Roots movement these days ignores what brothers Judah/Levi have to say on torah observance; I understand the motivation is to"do it right" or be more true to the text or more literal but sometimes the older brother really knows what's best and the Hebrew roots guys are flying by the seat of their pants (unnecessarily).

It's not just about a sharp enough knife, it's about not hitting nerve clusters, or trachea, etc. Animal suffering is part of torah as well.
@Ancient Paths describes the theory great but really this is something that comes from experience. IMHO it's one of those mitzvahs that if you can't do it right for sure, then better not to do it at all, or to delegate because otherwise we'll be in violation of another mitzvah.
Not even to mention that "He is our paschal lamb" so do we really need to be killing animals today?

This is not just directed to Zec, I really really hope my Hebrew roots brothers will follow the older Messianic example in this case; there is wisdom here for those who will hear it and torah holds animal suffering in much higher regard than traditional Western Christian values.

Hope I didn't step on too many toes. I hope anyone considering to slaughter their own lamb/goat will prayerfully reconsider.
שלום šālōm!

Here's my problem with all of that, and I want to say this with all due respect because I except that Judah is the older brother as you say and that I am a grafted in gentile. But, and Sir Mix-a-Lot would love this because it's a big ol' but....

As I read the text it seems pretty clear that most households should butcher their own lamb. It certainly seems to be the default if nothing else. Now I'm all for being kind to animals and doing things humanely and I even accept that it's a principle in line with scripture, but (and red rice and beans didn't miss this one either) is it a specific command? Is the method of butchering prescribed in scripture anywhere? It seems to me that raising the butchering of a butchery job to the same level as eating pork and then using that as an excuse not to conform to the simple instructions laid out in scripture as to the observance of the Passover would come close to making null the Word of God with the traditions of men.

Now I'm not saying it's wrong to not butcher your own lamb but I do have a problem with telling someone it is wrong to butcher your own lamb.

Christians aren't the only ones who have allowed layers of traditions to complicate the faith and I personally have no intention of doing the hard work of stripping out my father's traditions in order to adopt someone else's traditions.

I would like to end with something spiritual and conciliatory but I don't have anything. I will just quietly return to my cave until someone else rattles my chain.

 

[andrew]

Gentle reminder or Gentile reminder? Bwaaah hahaha

LOL!! Good one.

 

[andrew]

Bookmark: Acts 13:36 and God's purposes in our generation, fathers and sons

 

[IshChayil]

ב"ה

Here's my problem with all of that, and I want to say this with all due respect because I except that Judah is the older brother as you say and that I am a grafted in gentile. But, and Sir Mix-a-Lot would love this because it's a big ol' but....

As I read the text it seems pretty clear that most households should butcher their own lamb. It certainly seems to be the default if nothing else. Now I'm all for being kind to animals and doing things humanely and I even accept that it's a principle in line with scripture, but (and red rice and beans didn't miss this one either) is it a specific command?
Is the method of butchering prescribed in scripture anywhere?

Moses writes in the torah "You shall slaughter in the way that I have shown you" then it is never elaborated.
This is evidence for this particular tradition. The traditional method is well documented so it is the people preserved the "way that I have shown you".
This is (in this case) a fair warrant to appeal to Jewish tradition since Moses himself is establishing it as tradition.
When we consider the bible now is 66 books it is clear why every detail is not included and certain aspects were trusted to tradition.

I'm not saying the current state of the "oral torah" is binding; I'm only saying it's quite evident that this is a case where it is since Moses himself appeals to it.
If you don't trust the rabbis, as I know many Hebrew roots teachers don't even if they have never studied the rabbies, we can use good sense.
There are numerous verses in the bible which appeal to treating animals humanely.
Leaving a baby animal with it's mother for the first week, not cutting a leg off a living animal (preservation before refrigeration), not taking eggs away from a mother bird in the bird's viewing of the action (scare away the bird first then take the eggs), not yoking animals of different strengths to plow (one animal will push the other to exhaustion), not working your beast on the Sabbath, etc...
So even if we have no tradition passed down through the ages we can still derive that we must be as humane as possible so if Judah/Levi have a method that works, why reject that?

It seems to me that raising the butchering of a butchery job to the same level as eating pork and then using that as an excuse not to conform to the simple instructions laid out in scripture as to the observance of the Passover would come close to making null the Word of God with the traditions of men.

This would be true if the bible wasn't crystal clear about treating animals humanly. This is why hunting is illegal in Judaism because you can not be certain you'll kill it instantly.
For my own halachik advise, I have given permission in the past to expert marksmen to hunt where they could guarantee me a kill shot every single time but bow hunting was still out.

Now I'm not saying it's wrong to not butcher your own lamb but I do have a problem with telling someone it is wrong to butcher your own lamb.

This is the nature of following the command "yachoach tichoach et achikha ani Hashem..." "you shall indeed rebuke your brother I am Hashem..."
We are just watching out for one another.

Christians aren't the only ones who have allowed layers of traditions to complicate the faith and I personally have no intention of doing the hard work of stripping out my father's traditions in order to adopt someone else's traditions.

While this is true to some extent, the pandemic is that the vast majority of "Hebrew roots" teachers like "Michael Rood" or "Nehemia Gordon" (not even a believer),
don't have a clue about the traditions except for 1: blessing of candles before shabbat and 1 other one they love to taught. (though I love how they'll say the hamotzi and hagafen pharisaical blessings on bread and wine without blinking, presumably because they are easy to learn...).
It's quite simply the blind leading the blind. So ... it seems it's best to have a default position with the guys who have been doing torah for eons out of love for Hashem rather than the guys who are just figuring it out as they go. Case in point, who among Hebrew Roots would have a clue to start Shabbat on Friday night if the tradition of jews had not been passed to them? yes yes it's super clear AFTER you learn the tradition and the explanation from Genesis but nobody would have come to that conclusion separated from the continuous chain of torah observance for the past several thousand of years...

My point, Hebrew Roots guys don't have to figure this out by yourselves; you're Israel now, you've got family that knows about this stuff...
I sure would like it if the default position among Hebrew roots wasn't "the Jews are wrong" (not saying this is you Zec), and was instead "might as well do it the way Judah & Levi have been doing it unless it is explicitly AGAINST scripture".
Doesn't this seem like the path of least harm?

I would like to end with something spiritual and conciliatory but I don't have anything. I will just quietly return to my cave until someone else rattles my chain.

Hey well put Zec (we've come a long way you and I)
I just want to push back with, so isn't Yeshua the Paschal lamb? What do we do with the verse that says Messiah is our passover lamb?

I'm not saying grafted in Israel needs to take up Judah and Levi's traditions; I'm only saying can we please stop being spooked out about Torah traditions by old guys dressed in silly costumes. I see the Hebrew roots leaderships fear-mongering of Jewish traditions akin to the 2nd century Jewish rejection of the Greek LXX because they were tired of getting their butts handed to them by Christians who knew the Greek. Answer, cover the ears and declare it all bad...

 

[The Revolting Man]

ב"ה

Moses writes in the torah "You shall slaughter in the way that I have shown you" then it is never elaborated.
This is evidence for this particular tradition. The traditional method is well documented so it is the people preserved the "way that I have shown you".
This is (in this case) a fair warrant to appeal to Jewish tradition since Moses himself is establishing it as tradition.
When we consider the bible now is 66 books it is clear why every detail is not included and certain aspects were trusted to tradition.

I'm not saying the current state of the "oral torah" is binding; I'm only saying it's quite evident that this is a case where it is since Moses himself appeals to it.
If you don't trust the rabbis, as I know many Hebrew roots teachers don't even if they have never studied the rabbies, we can use good sense.
There are numerous verses in the bible which appeal to treating animals humanely.
Leaving a baby animal with it's mother for the first week, not cutting a leg off a living animal (preservation before refrigeration), not taking eggs away from a mother bird in the bird's viewing of the action (scare away the bird first then take the eggs), not yoking animals of different strengths to plow (one animal will push the other to exhaustion), not working your beast on the Sabbath, etc...
So even if we have no tradition passed down through the ages we can still derive that we must be as humane as possible so if Judah/Levi have a method that works, why reject that?


This would be true if the bible wasn't crystal clear about treating animals humanly. This is why hunting is illegal in Judaism because you can not be certain you'll kill it instantly.
For my own halachik advise, I have given permission in the past to expert marksmen to hunt where they could guarantee me a kill shot every single time but bow hunting was still out.


This is the nature of following the command "yachoach tichoach et achikha ani Hashem..." "you shall indeed rebuke your brother I am Hashem..."
We are just watching out for one another.


While this is true to some extent, the pandemic is that the vast majority of "Hebrew roots" teachers like "Michael Rood" or "Nehemia Gordon" (not even a believer),
don't have a clue about the traditions except for 1: blessing of candles before shabbat and 1 other one they love to taught. (though I love how they'll say the hamotzi and hagafen pharisaical blessings on bread and wine without blinking, presumably because they are easy to learn...).
It's quite simply the blind leading the blind. So ... it seems it's best to have a default position with the guys who have been doing torah for eons out of love for Hashem rather than the guys who are just figuring it out as they go. Case in point, who among Hebrew Roots would have a clue to start Shabbat on Friday night if the tradition of jews had not been passed to them? yes yes it's super clear AFTER you learn the tradition and the explanation from Genesis but nobody would have come to that conclusion separated from the continuous chain of torah observance for the past several thousand of years...

My point, Hebrew Roots guys don't have to figure this out by yourselves; you're Israel now, you've got family that knows about this stuff...
I sure would like it if the default position among Hebrew roots wasn't "the Jews are wrong" (not saying this is you Zec), and was instead "might as well do it the way Judah & Levi have been doing it unless it is explicitly AGAINST scripture".
Doesn't this seem like the path of least harm?


Hey well put Zec (we've come a long way you and I)
I just want to push back with, so isn't Yeshua the Paschal lamb? What do we do with the verse that says Messiah is our passover lamb?

I'm not saying grafted in Israel needs to take up Judah and Levi's traditions; I'm only saying can we please stop being spooked out about Torah traditions by old guys dressed in silly costumes. I see the Hebrew roots leaderships fear-mongering of Jewish traditions akin to the 2nd century Jewish rejection of the Greek LXX because they were tired of getting their butts handed to them by Christians who knew the Greek. Answer, cover the ears and declare it all bad...

You kind of only pushed mw farther in my direction Ish. You say you forbid men to hunt? That just flies all over me for a whole host of reasons most of which admittedly aren't scriptural.

Look, David killed a lion and a bear with a slingshot. Samson tore a lion in half with his hands. I'm being a little absurd to illustrate a point though, you can't get hard fast rules from traditions and asides. Hard fast rules are unequivocal. You can't argue with them. There's no denying them.

Traditions and leaps of logic and principles end up elevating men to positions of authority they can't fulfill. We've seen it in Christianity, we've seen it Judaism.

I would love to learn the traditions and the reasoning behind them. But they have to be taught as traditions, as principles that help us obey actual Laws. If ever the traditions become laws, or are used to obscure Laws, then we're in a dangerous place.

You frequently hear that pride was the original sin but that seems pretty vague to me. Specifically what happened is that Eve was tempted to know right and wrong and so be like God. Now that's prideful for sure, it's the ultimate pride. But how many people do we know, from all faiths, that think their words should carry the weight of God's Words? That they know right and wrong and so can make pronouncements that must be obeyed?

It's a slippery slope sir and one I hope to stay off of.