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Wife's (and mine) best friend

I’d like to share- I have a friend that I thought about asking her if I died would she take care of my kids for my husband and consider marrying him. Then I realized why not now. Why not be part of the family now? Then the fear of loosing such a fun, free spirited friend hit me. Needless to say I wanted to keep her MY friend then risk loosing her if things didn’t work out between she and hubby. But it’s fear and selfishness that ruled my thoughts. After a bit of prayer and fear and love verse searching, as well as with Gods help- perfect love casteth out all fear. My love and trust of these two people is what finally settled my heart and mind. Whatever God wants with them, whatever they choose will just have to play out. I may loose a friend, she may gain a family. There’s no fear of loss anymore. BUT it had to be brought to my attention that I trusted her with my family and fear of loss had to be cast out. It’s funny to realize it wasn’t losing my husband to her that I feared but losing my friendship with her that was the issue.

William, especially given that you believe your wife is somewhere on the path that Well Loved Wife has described, I recommend that you share that post with G.

Two more things:
  1. Jealousy is an emotion and thus does not follow rules of intellect. It's entirely natural to feel jealous regarding someone one has only fantasized about being in relationship with; it happens all the time. The fact that you don't have a 'claim' on your friend S is irrelevant. Had you been unaware of your feelings for her prior to feeling jealousy, that would have been meant as a wake-up call, because that's what jealousy always is, at least to a significant degree: an indication of a potential threat.
  2. I would assert that everyone may be unnecessarily tiptoeing on eggshells around this whole friendship issue with S. My intuition is that, on a conscious level, fear of losing the friendship is sincere, but on at least an unconscious level that fear is likely to more significantly be a rationale for preventing the possibility of a marital relationship . . . or, on your part, avoiding risking learning if such a possibility exists. Often, we human beings draw false boundaries between friendships and romances, and often those false boundaries result in unnecessary limitations being placed on whatever the relationship actually is or could be. It is as if we make an assessment that the relationship meets our approval at some particular moment -- and then want to put that relationship in a tight box, wrap it up with a bow and ensure that it never changes. But if it never changes it will also stall. My assertion would be that, if this friendship is as valuable as both you and your wife say it is, and if you and your wife are as committed to your friend S getting whatever it is that she may want out of the relationships among you, it would be a mistake to keep the light of your growing affection for S under a bushel basket. If the 3-way relationship you already have is worth its weight in gold as a friendship, then it can certainly withstand S learning officially that you have been wondering if she'd be interested in considering being courted by you. (I say 'officially,' because I find it implausible that she would be unaware of your desires, given that if she's that clueless it would have to mean that she hasn't been paying enough attention to have more than a superficial friendship.) Given that S knows you and your wife are married, and especially given the fact that the three of you have been joking about polygamy, if all three of you are truly friends, I would dispute that the friendship has enough depth to sustain itself over time if you can't broach the subject of your fantasies about S joining you in a plural family. Hear me clearly, though: I'm not suggesting that, out of the blue, you ask her to marry you or even that you ask her to date you. What I am suggesting is that, after informing G ahead of time and with your wife present, you inform S that you have something to tell her that has the potential to make her uncomfortable -- and that it's something you've already shared with G. If S replies that she would rather avoid any such discussion, you've learned that she isn't ready, at the very least not ready to have any kind of uncomfortable conversation, and most definitely not ready to imagine being your second wife. If she invites you to spill the beans, though, then, again, don't jump right to proposing dating, courting or marriage. Instead, simply describe the hitherto unexpressed feelings and fantasies you've had about her joining your family. Begin in as nonthreatening a manner as possible, avoiding indicating that you feel any imperative to act on your feelings, and I say that because you and your wife have both asserted a desire to avoid losing the friendship you already have. Friendships, though, are always prone to morphing into different shapes and sizes. A static friendship isn't much of a friendship at all, and neither would be a friendship within which one cannot say what is on one's heart. If you don't mind having superficial friendships, you can find and sustain them more easily by just sitting on a pub barstool each night, because there the people on your left and right will be endlessly willing to shoot the shit and talk about the weather. My thought, though, is that any friendship worth sustaining allows for each participant to discuss the things that are most important in their lives. If practicing polygamy isn't very important to you, or if your feelings for S aren't really all that strong anyway, then perhaps you should just let sleeping dogs lie. However, if G isn't willing to let you simply discuss your feelings with S in her presence, I firmly believe you will have learned that not wanting to lose a friendship is just another excuse to prevent you from having another wife. And, as Andrew has already said,
If she's not open to constructive dialogue, that would be some evidence that it's not the real issue for her, and she's using that as an argument-stopper to put the kibosh on the relationship without having to think about it

. . . because, also quoting Andrew,

It seems odd . . . that the obvious woman who would be a great fit for your family should be passed over, while you search for some other woman not yet on your radar.
 
Keith,
I appreciate your reply. I will clarify that I have expressed my feelings of romantic interest in S to her already. I explained to her that my wife was already aware, and S knows that I have some interest in poly marriage. I haven't explicitly stated I want to date/court her, but that if she is open to it then I am as well. When we discussed it she did express she has no interest in polygamy, which is not unexpected. She has never had any sort of romantic relationship so this is a new concept to her, even monogamous relationships are foreign territory. That is part of my original question, and likely more of one for the ladies here, how to convince a young woman, who hasn't ever been on a date and grew up on monogamy, that being a "second wife" is a good option. Again, not that I want to trick her or force her into something she doesn't want, but to honestly discuss with her over the coming years without pushing her away from the idea. I am sure it goes back to patience and waiting for God to work his plan, if this is in fact His plan. I did promise S when I told her my feelings that I don't have any illusions that she will change her mind or that I am owed a relationship, and that I would not pester her with the topic as it is something she clearly expressed herself as not having interest in. Not to say I won't talk about it more, I will, but I won't bring it up every chance I get either.
I am able to talk about my feelings openly with my wife, there have just been times, especially early on after admitting to myself and them that I had feelings for S, that it became too much for her to hear about constantly, as it was just about all I thought about. My hope for now is to work with my wife to accept S as a potential wife, and next summer when S is living with us for the summer to be able to discuss again with me and my wife on the same page. Again, reminding myself of patience and the possibility that this may not be His plan.
 
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there have just been times, especially early on after admitting to myself and them that I had feelings for S, that it became too much for her to hear about constantly, as it was just about all I thought about.

My wife is @Well loved wife and there were definitely times especially early on where she had to tell me she needed a break from thinking about poly. Not that I was pushing it or that we had a potential, but at times my learning curve was so steep that it seemed I had new info to share constantly. Been there done that and the answer is patience and grace. God will grow her in His time and in ways that you’d have never thought of and it is a beautiful thing when you see it happening in real time.
 
Keith,
I appreciate your reply. I will clarify that I have expressed my feelings of romantic interest in S to her already. I explained to her that my wife was already aware, and S knows that I have some interest in poly marriage. I haven't explicitly stated I want to date/court her, but that if she is open to it then I am as well. When we discussed it she did express she has no interest in polygamy, which is not unexpected.

Two things:

1. I just re-read your first post and therefore apologize for missing that part about how you've already expressed your romantic interest in S. That might have changed some of what I wrote! I have a question that arises from this new awareness of mine, though: don't you think S would have put 2 and 2 together when you expressed your romantic interest and realized that you were interested in her potentially being a second wife?

2. As far as His plans go, we're all pretty much in the same boat in one respect. It's hard to know God's plans until they've already begun to be implemented.
 
don't you think S would have put 2 and 2 together when you expressed your romantic interest and realized that you were interested in her potentially being a second wife?
I'm sure she has, though I have not discussed it any further with her since. I brought it as an idea I would like to explore further, even as far as saying that if she were open to it I wouldn't drop a knee the next second and propose, but would take things slow and make sure this is what we all wanted. I know for myself that I want to do this, but I want to make 100% sure first, as it should be in any marriage, mono or poly.
 
As a follow up to my previous comment, the topic did come up the other day and she restated that she is completely opposed to the idea in her future. That friendship is all she will ever want. Of course I am not going to try to change her mind and push her into this, as it would likely just lead to pushback. That said, going back to my question to the ladies, what should I be doing in this situation? I'm sure just about any second wife had initial rejections if she didn't grow up in this family model. My own wife took 3 years to get where she is today. I am respectful of her (S) opinion, though I hold hope in the fact that many people who hold strong monogamous beliefs they think are unshakable, do in fact change their mind. How many here initially said "I will never want this"? How long did it take to change your mind? What changed your mind? I am curious if there are any women here who have been in that situation, where they had never considered polygamy as a young woman, who hasn't experienced dating/courtship is suddenly are approached with the idea of courtship with a married man. I'm not one to consider myself unique, however in such a small community this may be a rare situation.
I know every journey is different, so ultimately I would ask for prayers that I am doing the right thing, following His plan, and for patience in this slow marathon, especially not knowing the ultimate destination.
 
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For what it's worth, S was exactly what my SW was. I'd just leave it alone. And never bring it up again. No jokes. Nada. Zilch. Any more talk will feel like pushing, even if innocent. What will change her mind is seeing how you treat your wife, her, how you handle situations, and just being yourself. You get her to fall in love with you by being a great husband to your current wife. There is nothing more attractive to a woman than a good husband and father. Someone strong, steady, not a push over but not a ultimate jerk, honest, kind, reassuring and who loves Adoni. Making sure your wife is on board (and I mean really on board, not just saying it to appease you) because you need her to help you with S. Nothing is more revolting than feeling pushed into PM by your husband or potential husband. And honestly, even though I was in the FW role, SW asked for my permission in a private conversation without my husbands knowledge during their early courtship. She actually told me that she would never see, call, or speak to him again if that was my wish. I told her I couldn't do that, it wasn't my right, that it was HER decision to be in our family, I would accept her, and that I would not stand in the way of them (even though I was screaming on the inside YES! DON"T EVER COME BACK). Later, SW also told me that it freaked her out that I would accept her, and how guilty she felt because she felt she didn't have a "right" to him. Anyway, my advise is silence, prayer and patience, in that order. You've been clear, you've been honest, you were shot down. Leave it alone.

Quick question: does S show any romantic interest at all? Because if S is getting all the emotional "perks" of a wife then she can keep the relationship like it is and never have to change anything, best friend D doesn't feel threatened, and everyone is safe. She essentially said that she doesn't want to be your wife or a potential wife. Therefore, she should not get any "wifely" perks. She can't have a "pseudo" husband. In all likelihood, D probably saw over the summer that this could work, and trust me when I say this, it's TERRIFYING to see that as a FW. I remember thinking "o.m.g....this could really work....and I could accept it.....and be happy.....and......OMG WHAT DOES THAT MEAN?!?!?! <cue freak out and massive internal revolt of every cell in my body>. idk if this helps, and please keep in mind, this is my opinion based on what I've read, my past experiences, and other internal biases. :)
 
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I appreciate the perspective.

For what it's worth, S was exactly what my SW was.

I want to ask, if it's not too personal, you say exactly and I am curious about initial reluctance. Was your SW initially opposed to the lifestyle or was the relationship built on the known and open possibility of future marriage? Was it a friendship only relationship that organically grew into what you have today after a level of rejection and eventual acceptance?

Quick question: does S show any romantic interest at all?:)

I am not an expert on reading subliminal or hidden emotions which I know women have a tendency to hold, but we do have what I consider excellent communication. She has been very clear she sees me as a friend, nothing more. While certain things will make me question if there is something hidden/suppressed, I know that my own feelings in this situation are biased and looking for hope where there may be none. For example, I was given the opportunity to go visit S, suggested by my wife. It would have just been me and S for a few days, and both of them fully trust me in that situation. However, for reasons I can't figure out, she is uncomfortable with me staying with her alone since I am married. My mind wants to believe that she is suppressing feelings or protecting against forming romantic feelings for a married man as she doesn't want to be in a poly relationship. I have tried to get her to explain the reasoning beyond being uncomfortable. She has been clear she trusts me, so if she is not worried about me, I think she may be worried about herself. That being an example of what may be completely off base bias, though I would think ideal if it were the case.
 
I'd just leave it alone. And never bring it up again. No jokes. Nada. Zilch. Any more talk will feel like pushing, even if innocent. What will change her mind is seeing how you treat your wife, her, how you handle situations, and just being yourself. <snip> Anyway, my advise is silence, prayer and patience, in that order. You've been clear, you've been honest, you were shot down. Leave it alone.

For what it's worth -- and I say that because I'm a man and thus do not have unlimited insight into what it is to be a woman -- I believe your lead-off advice here is SPOT ON, @NurseMo. Excellent! Hard to carry off when one is interested, but I don't think I could think of anything to refute the genius of it.

Quick question: does S show any romantic interest at all? Because if S is getting all the emotional "perks" of a wife then she can keep the relationship like it is and never have to change anything, best friend D doesn't feel threatened, and everyone is safe. She essentially said that she doesn't want to be your wife or a potential wife. Therefore, she should not get any "wifely" perks. She can't have a "pseudo" husband.

And, boom! I have something to add to this from the male perspective. I do know that this offends some people here, but I've been active on OK Cupid for many years now, recognizing from the beginning that it represents a shot in the dark. In the last year or so I've been much less active, though, and one of the biggest reasons is that I discovered that a great many women will purposefully take advantage of a man in my position, in fact especially if they're actually attracted to me. Given their aversion to polygamy and their belief that what they aspire to is an exclusive relationship, they will lean on me in a way that treats me as what I've been calling a "partial husband," and I think "pseudo husband" may be even more accurate. I think William's S may potentially qualify. The pattern for me has been that these women gradually but still rather rapidly treat me as a father confessor, telling me many intimate details of their past relationships, their emotional problems, their struggles with parenting, work, friendships, etc. They seek my advice. They even utilize some of the advice. When it comes to men in their lives, though, the only advice they seem to hear is advice about how to be more effective in attracting men to whom they're interested. Eventually I noticed that they almost never absorbed any advice about how to behave in a way that attracts men who will actually stick around and treat them with respect. What I further observed is that my being the "partial husband" allowed them to continue choosing to pursue men who lacked the protective and actively loving qualities they were getting from me, which meant that they would perpetuate a pattern of getting all worked up about a guy, sleep with him far too soon, stop contacting me for a period of time, experience rejection in one form or another very soon after the relationship was consummated, and then, of course, come 'running' back to me for a shoulder to cry on.

This type of relationship (the pseudo husband kind) is counter-productive for both people, so when I recognized it I phased out those relationships and have since studiously avoided them. I'm willing to be supportive, but not if it means that I'm simply being taken advantage of in service of allowing a woman to continue to live in fantasy land.

While certain things will make me question if there is something hidden/suppressed, I know that my own feelings in this situation are biased and looking for hope where there may be none. For example, I was given the opportunity to go visit S, suggested by my wife. It would have just been me and S for a few days, and both of them fully trust me in that situation. However, for reasons I can't figure out, she is uncomfortable with me staying with her alone since I am married. My mind wants to believe that she is suppressing feelings or protecting against forming romantic feelings for a married man as she doesn't want to be in a poly relationship. I have tried to get her to explain the reasoning beyond being uncomfortable. She has been clear she trusts me, so if she is not worried about me, I think she may be worried about herself. That being an example of what may be completely off base bias, though I would think ideal if it were the case.

@William, I really do empathize with you about all this. As I wrote above, I believe NurseMo is on the mark with her advice. And, even though she added something about wondering if S is using you as a pseudo husband, I think it's still imperative that you not use even wondering if S may be interested in you in a romantic way to justify continuing to torture yourself with what ifs. The advice NurseMo gave is brilliant, because (a) you've been rejected, and (b) no matter whether S is or isn't romantically interested in you, in the face of rejection by her, you can only stand tall in this situation if you combine (1) putting all your energy into being a good husband to D with (2) allowing the ball to stay in S's court as far as any expression of romantic feelings between the two of you goes. I would suggest at all costs resisting the urge to dwell on or articulate your feelings for S. Let it become and remain her issue, and simultaneously be conscious about not behaving in a way that makes her too comfortable; i.e., don't give her all the perks of a husband with no expectation that she provide the perks of a wife. After all, marriage necessarily is, to a significant extent, a framework of trade-offs.
 
want to ask, if it's not too personal, you say exactly and I am curious about initial reluctance. Was your SW initially opposed to the lifestyle or was the relationship built on the known and open possibility of future marriage? Was it a friendship only relationship that organically grew into what you have today after a level of rejection and eventual acceptance?

All of it, in some form or another.

I am not an expert on reading subliminal or hidden emotions which I know women have a tendency to hold, but we do have what I consider excellent communication. She has been very clear she sees me as a friend, nothing more. While certain things will make me question if there is something hidden/suppressed, I know that my own feelings in this situation are biased and looking for hope where there may be none. For example, I was given the opportunity to go visit S, suggested by my wife. It would have just been me and S for a few days, and both of them fully trust me in that situation. However, for reasons I can't figure out, she is uncomfortable with me staying with her alone since I am married. My mind wants to believe that she is suppressing feelings or protecting against forming romantic feelings for a married man as she doesn't want to be in a poly relationship. I have tried to get her to explain the reasoning beyond being uncomfortable. She has been clear she trusts me, so if she is not worried about me, I think she may be worried about herself. That being an example of what may be completely off base bias, though I would think ideal if it were the case.

You want her. I get it. You're correct in that woman are notorious for saying one thing but meaning another, I've done it, I do it, (but I try not to). Anyway, my husband made it very clear before we were married that he didn't want to guess at what I "really" meant when I said things and all the drama that goes with it. Say what you mean, mean what you say. So, I learned how to be an adult. To solve problems like an adult. And I respect him for that. Naturally, (and early on) when he asked if "something was wrong" and I said "nothing." He took me for my word and said "Ok" and went about his daily life. I had to make a decision. If nothing was wrong, then nothing was wrong. If "nothing" was wrong I could chose to address it or not. No games, no drama, no guessing. Regardless, "I see you as a friend, nothing more" means "I see you as a friend, nothing more." "I'm uncomfortable being alone with you because you're married" means "I'm uncomfortable being alone with you because you're married." So what if she *might* be suppressing feelings or worried about herself. It doesn't' matter. The underlying issue here is this: She's asking you to respect her boundaries. This builds trust. Trust is good.
 
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@William--I was on the thread last night and read it from start to finish but then was uable to have time to post a response. By the time I'd finished reading everything, the one thing that shocked me is this: No one in the entire thread has even hinted at the reality of what was going through both of your minds as you and S sat "close" watching a movie and "holding hands"! This is more than friendship body language and goes beyond her words which say I want boundaries which do not involve a romantic relationship. Actions DO speak louder than words! Nevertheless, her words are what you must listen to and base your decisions upon as @NurseMo said. You have to take S at her word. IMO if her words DON'T match up with her body language then that is something you as the guy must address and deal with. I'd say the same shoe fits for you and G. It's ingenuious at several levels to say one thing and then act out another. All 3 of you are doing this to each other for probably different reasons. Each of you are taking cues from the other, making decisions based upon those cues, and imagining that you have solid relationships already established or in the making.

You mention that S will return to spend the summer again next year. Do the 3 of you engage in active communication throughout the school year as she's away to college or does S just pop back into your lives at the beginning of the next summer? How did she come into the picture? How many summers has she been staying with you and G? I'm not trying to be overly pessimistic, but I see a very fragile triangle hinged by emotions which does not have the foundational strength to withstand the slightest breeze or quake. It could all go "poof" and everyone's going to be really hurting. If you feel like you and G DO have a solid marriage, then I'd secure that by all means and move forward circumspectly with the goal of adding a second wife, but I'd make sure the one you're pursuing for PW is definitely interested in joining a plural family.

May the Lord guide and bless you as the Adone of your home!
 
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For what it's worth, S was exactly what my SW was. I'd just leave it alone. And never bring it up again. No jokes. Nada. Zilch. Any more talk will feel like pushing, even if innocent. What will change her mind is seeing how you treat your wife, her, how you handle situations, and just being yourself. You get her to fall in love with you by being a great husband to your current wife. There is nothing more attractive to a woman than a good husband and father. Someone strong, steady, not a push over but not a ultimate jerk, honest, kind, reassuring and who loves Adoni. Making sure your wife is on board (and I mean really on board, not just saying it to appease you) because you need her to help you with S. Nothing is more revolting than feeling pushed into PM by your husband or potential husband. And honestly, even though I was in the FW role, SW asked for my permission in a private conversation without my husbands knowledge during their early courtship. She actually told me that she would never see, call, or speak to him again if that was my wish. I told her I couldn't do that, it wasn't my right, that it was HER decision to be in our family, I would accept her, and that I would not stand in the way of them (even though I was screaming on the inside YES! DON"T EVER COME BACK). Later, SW also told me that it freaked her out that I would accept her, and how guilty she felt because she felt she didn't have a "right" to him. Anyway, my advise is silence, prayer and patience, in that order. You've been clear, you've been honest, you were shot down. Leave it alone.

Quick question: does S show any romantic interest at all? Because if S is getting all the emotional "perks" of a wife then she can keep the relationship like it is and never have to change anything, best friend D doesn't feel threatened, and everyone is safe. She essentially said that she doesn't want to be your wife or a potential wife. Therefore, she should not get any "wifely" perks. She can't have a "pseudo" husband. In all likelihood, D probably saw over the summer that this could work, and trust me when I say this, it's TERRIFYING to see that as a FW. I remember thinking "o.m.g....this could really work....and I could accept it.....and be happy.....and......OMG WHAT DOES THAT MEAN?!?!?! <cue freak out and massive internal revolt of every cell in my body>. idk if this helps, and please keep in mind, this is my opinion based on what I've read, my past experiences, and other internal biases. :)
Where is the uber like button? This is good!
 
I nominate @NurseMo for a personal advice column.

@NurseMo I bet you didn't think anyone would ever say this about you years ago! Shows how awesome God is and how amazing you are for listening. :)

@William, I would like to throw one more thought in, what if you came at your relationship with S, from this point on, as a man showing a single woman what is good in a husband? Maybe God has sent you S so you can be a mentor to her regarding what to look for in a good husband? The example of good and Godly husbands are few and it is even more rare to actually get to live with a family to see it all first hand. Maybe God is asking you to step up in your marriage and in your walk with Him in these coming months before summer, so you can then demonstrate and teach S about marriage and what to search for in a husband. Who knows, maybe over time she will desire to marry you because of your example, but if not then you have helped her be successful (and thus happy) in a marriage to someone else. Win, win, in my book.
 
@julieb never.in.a.million.years! And I couldn’t have done it without A LOT of tough love...from God and hubby, you, and others.
 
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