• Biblical Families is not a dating website. It is a forum to discuss issues relating to marriage and the Bible, and to offer guidance and support, not to find a wife. Click here for more information.

Need Advice and Help With Regards to Youtube Arguments

I will reply to him this:


1) Have you considered then the Ideal is actually not getting married at all for God on created Eve because Adam was not capable enough and God himself is single? If this is the case, then those who get married at sinning and not living according to the “ideal” that you said it is? I see you have difficulty coming up with your definition of ideal. Maybe I’ll help you a bit. I see where you are coming from. So would you agree that your definition of the ideal law is only applicable in the context of marriage and all the other moral laws and practices given in the Old Testament are kind of ideal or not ideal? So the ideal is there is no divorce at all. If there is a divorce, even if it’s for sexual immorality, it is still not ideal and therefore a sin? According to your arguments, Jesus ONLY told us God's ideal of marriage? If this is the line of reasoning, would it be possible that everything after the fall is not ideal and that the fact that we are perpetually living on this Earth is committing sins? Isn't God's ideal is that we continue living in the Garden of Eden?

Have you also considered the possibility that it’s a linguistic issue? For example, every relationship is between two people – you have a one-to-one relationship with your son, and another with your daughter for instance. The fact that you have a one-to-one relationship with your son does not prevent you from having further children and also having a personal relationship with them. And the fact that a man has a one-to-one relationship with his wife does not prevent him from obtaining another and having another one-to-one relationship with her also.


2) I think Solomon’s sin was that he had taken foreign wives who corrupted him to worship foreign gods. 1 King 11:9 : “Now the Lord was angry with Solomon because his heart was turned away from the Lord, the God of Israel, who had appeared to him twice, 10 and had commanded him concerning this thing, that he should not go after other gods; but he did not observe what the Lord had commanded.” God actually stated this explicitly. When you said, “you cannot deny the obvious connection between this and polygamy”, I don’t speculate on what the Lord did not say. Moses, David, Jacob all took at least 2 wives, none of them got such condemnation from God. So, from Solomon’s story, I can only say: don’t take foreign wives and don’t worship foreign gods.

One thing I must condemn is to equate God’s holiness with money. If you cannot put it on paper and properly define it according to God’s words, my perception of God’s holiness, Ps Mike’s perception of God’s holiness and your perception of God’s holiness can be all subjective and different. And all of our subjectivity can be construed into sins causing us to judge others unfairly, in an unrighteous manner.

3. Based on your 3rd point, Roman Catholics love to use this line of reasoning too. They said the same thing too, affirming the position of apostle Peter as the Rock and the first Pope. They are not adding to God’s words but are making God’s glory even more glorious by giving their own interpretations of the Bible. They claimed to derive this authority from Peter who had been described as the Rock. I find it hard to accept because it didn’t say you have the right to expand the definition of sin – what is sin.
 
He is saying that the second wife is not really a wife, which contradicts numerous passages in Scripture.
 
He is forgetting Christian liberty: It is for freedom that Christ has set us free.
We are repeatedly told that Christ sets us free "from the law". Obviously we disagree on what that precisely means, and which parts of the OT law still apply and which don't. But the legitimate argument in Christianity is precisely what this "freedom" entails - are we bound by the Law still and only freed from the curse / consequences of sin, or are we freed from the Law itself. Whatever the answer, we are more free than before Christ.

He is saying that we are actually bound by new laws and are required to live by an even greater standard of holiness than the Pharisees did. This is the exact opposite of all Christian teaching in every other area. He is reversing the entire thrust of the Gospel.

Either we are equally restricted as in the OT law, or more free. Christ did not come to bring legalism.
 
I honestly have never heard of Ethan Hocking. His opinion doesn't mean much. It is easy to get sucked into these debates, but I would rather debate in front of a much larger audience. I do however appreciate the time commitment that you are pouring into it, as I am someone who looks at both sides of an argument to determine which side has merit. So when I was investigating this topic, I saw the pathetic answers that the anti-poly crowd was running with, and I knew that they were guilty of some serious Eisegesis.

Personally, I can attest to having spent too much time trying to debate these clowns, which I found counter-productive to my job performance, so I have to warn you not to get too caught up in it. There is a three volume treatise that is scholarly, and defends the practice of polygyny, and it is called "Thelyphthora". If the text were in a copy/paste format, it would make things so much easier, where you can cite the work and present his arguments, and it gives great reasons why we can be assured that polygyny is acceptable in the sight of God. That is really all anybody should care about.

This Ethan Hocking, stated that TrumenFreight is in danger of hell fire. He said that he did not have time to answer TrumenFreight's points, but he had plenty of time to answer other posts in that thread. That is typical of anti-poly rhetoric. I feel much more at liberty now these days, now that I am not always trying to win every argument. It is good practice, especially if you are under assault from local ministers, which can happen, especially when you have close family that objects to what you know to be true, and want to get a pastor to straighten you out. I am glad that I am no longer in that situation. One day, I suppose if I have a much larger platform, I may want to brush up on my arguments, in preparation for whatever opportunity I may have. Until then, I know that God has a plan for me, that requires me to focus on my work, in order to attain the goals He has placed in front of me.
 
I really think they believe that they are initially trying to defend the Christian faith, against those that would try to disparage it, but then they realize that there are people who aren't trying to argue that the Bible is anti-woman, but rather believe what we believe, which takes them back a bit.
 
What concerns me is how the arguments they present easily open the door for every false doctrine. To suggest they have a higher standard for holiness and righteousness than God has articulated in His word is to place themselves above the authority of Holy Scripture. They can make any claim or rule they want which then becomes irrefutable.

This (false) idea that God's ideal is what's presented in the Garden calls into question the sinless perfection of our Lord Jesus Christ. Every man and woman was married in the garden, they were nudists, gardeners, and vegetarians. Jesus Christ was not married, wore clothes, wasn't a gardener and definitely wasn't a vegetarian. Ask those who suggest God had a creation ideal in the Garden why they would suggest Jesus Christ fell short of God's creation ideal? Is their saviour one who couldn't live up to God's ideal? My Saviour was, is, and always will be the sinless Son who gave His life in a perfect sacrifice for my redemption. He fulfilled all that was required in the law - nothing less!
 
Thank you everyone @Daniel DeLuca @frederick @FollowingHim @eye4them @Gary Slaughenhaupt @PeteR for the advice. =) I basically stopped the discussion because I think he is not open to the truth, but it's more like he has his own deep preconceived idea about God which everyone has to follow. I asked him to define what he meant by ideal, sins, holiness, and the right to expand the definition in Roman 7:7. He couldn't because he thinks God is too great for words to describe. His version of God is only describable in his own dreams, not by the Holy Scriptures and not by his own words. Which in this case, anything he can dream of can be construed as sins and be used to judge people.
 
Last edited:
For anyone interested, the rest of the discussion goes like this:


Ethan Hocking
15 hours ago
@Kai Chi Theng Are you an open theist? It sounds like you're saying that God created Adam, realised that there was a problem with Adam's loneliness, and then created Eve in order to solve the problem. Are you denying that the whole thing was God's plan all along? Like I said, if you want me to believe that Jesus was making room for polygamy, you're going to have to show me where God plainly calls polygamy a good thing.

I'm surprised that you brought up the multiple-children argument. I addressed that in one of my earlier replies. A man is one flesh with his wife, not one flesh with his children.

Solomon's idolatry was a consequence of him violating God's command in Deuteronomy: "He shall not multiply wives for himself, or else his heart will turn away; nor shall he greatly increase silver and gold for himself." (Deuteronomy 17:17 NASB) Solomon did both of those things. Read Ecclesiastes.

I was not equating God's holiness with money! I was pointing out the difference between quality and quantity.

I don't care what Roman Catholics say when it comes to this. You are simply refusing to read the Scripture, it would seem. Here it is again: " But if the ministry of death, in letters engraved on stones, came with glory, so that the sons of Israel could not look intently at the face of Moses because of the glory of his face, fading as it was, how will the ministry of the Spirit fail to be even more with glory? For if the ministry of condemnation has glory, much more does the ministry of righteousness abound in glory. For indeed what had glory, in this case has no glory because of the glory that surpasses it. For if that which fades away was with glory, much more that which remains is in glory." (2 Corinthians 3:7-11 NASB)



Kai Chi Theng
Kai Chi Theng
15 hours ago
@Ethan Hocking Actually, I’m not interested in convincing you about the polygamy thing. Because I think you have much greater issue to resolve.


I know that you brought up the multiple-children arguments earlier. You missed out my point though. Your assumption is that one flesh is not a relationship. My point is about the linguistic issue.



I’m surprised again that you brought up the Deut 17:17, so multiplying horses means the king cannot get more than 2 horses in the previous verse? You haven’t addressed that argument.



I’m not able to understand the quality versus quantity through your use of money; It is too unholy. You see? Our perceptions of holiness are different?



I have re-read that 2 Cor 3:7-11 multiple times, it does not seem to be justification to expand the definition of sin. You can say the ministry of Spirit refers to the Holy Spirit in our hearts and God looks at the intent of our hearts to judge us. But it does not make a sin a sin.



Ethan Hocking
Ethan Hocking
15 hours ago
@Kai Chi Theng You can't change the subject just because you don't like the direction it's going in. Do you speak Hebrew? On what ground can you say that being "one flesh" is not restricted to marriage and the sexual relationship therein? I don't know what the issue of the horses has to do with the issue of multiplying wives having the adverse effect of leading the king's heart astray? You don't understand the difference between quality and quantity? That's what I was using 2 Corinthians 3:7-11 to address.



Kai Chi Theng
Kai Chi Theng
14 hours ago
@Ethan Hocking I just said" have you considered the possibility"? I am not asserting my opinion over you. I am asking you to consider the possibility only. Give it an open mind.

Unfortunately, I don't speak Hebrew and neither do you. So, we need to open the possibility that it might be read in that manner. Do your own investigation.

Because the word "multiplying" of wife in Hebrew is the same as the one referring to the "multiplying" of horses, and they are in the same paragraph. It's just the previous verse.

Sorry, I don't understand your illustration in the context of money because I could not compare God's holiness with money. It's sinful to me. Perhaps you have other better ways to illustrate it? Anyway, I hope and pray that God leads you in His way to wisdom, truth, and love. I need to end this discussion because we are unable to agree on the meanings and definitions of God's holiness, sin and God's ideal. Without an objective meaning, we will argue based on what we see fit, not on what is right in God's eyes. Thank you for your time & effort. I have learnt much. God bless!



Ethan Hocking
Ethan Hocking
13 hours ago
@Kai Chi Theng Okay. If ending the discussion here is what feels best to you, that's fine. I just want to say that I don't think you have fully understood my position. For example, I never said that the definition or meaning of sin was expanded. It's also worth realising that people have given and risked their lives to make and keep the Bible accessible in languages we can understand. We should be able to exegete it properly. That is what I was willing to do in this discussion. I don't think you've clarified what Deuteronomy 17 was really saying about the horses. Nevertheless, God bless you.
 
One thing I am curious about is God's plan. How can I understand God's plan with His omniscient? In other words, did God actually plan for mankind to sin in order to send God the Son, Jesus to die for mankind?
Does anyone have any resources for me to look into to understand this better?
 
Does anyone have any resources for me to look into to understand this better?

If you look at good commentaries on e.g. Eph. 1:3-12 you will find the answers you want. The letter to the Ephesians is addressed to saints; to those whom God has chosen before the foundation of the world, redeemed, forgiven, etc. The salvation of sinners was not a "Plan B" because of sin. Cheers
 
I don't know if anyone here has time to read through all that. What I did notice though, and we should all be taking advantage of this, is there are a LOT of people on the fence that have posted comments on that video, asking why the Bible does not condemn polygamy. Many of them also stated that they personally have no interest in practicing polygyny. We should welcome them anyhow.

Here is an example:
Greg Chacon1 week ago (edited)
If I'm not mistaken, doesn't the Lord accept polygamy in the Old Testament? If so, wouldn't that mean God didn't view polygamy as adultery? It seems to me that there were many polygamists in scripture; an example is David. Interestingly, God sends him a prophet to rebuke him for his adultery for sleeping with another man's wife, yet, why wasn't he ever rebuked before for a numerous wives? Is this just an Old Testament thing? If so, why?
We should spend less time debating those who are obstinate. They will soon be in the minority. Focus on those who are on the fence, and invite them to learn more, even if they themselves have no desire to practice it.

EDIT: For those who are obstinate, There is already plenty of literature they can read that has thoroughly refuted their arguments. I like to start them off with the Three Volume work called "Thelyphthora", which is rather comprehensive in its treatment of what Scripture says concerning polygyny.

EDIT EDIT: There is also a book that has gotten great reviews, called "The Monogamy Lie". I haven't read any of it, but those who have, have highly recommended it.
 
Last edited:
Hi @Daniel DeLuca, thank you for your recommendation. I tried to purchase 3 volumes of the book "Thelyphthora", but could not because Amazon just wouldn't send them to my country. Hopefully, one day these Books would be accessible in my country.

We should spend less time debating those who are obstinate

What I did notice though, and we should all be taking advantage of this, is there are a LOT of people on the fence that have posted comments on that video, asking why the Bible does not condemn polygamy.
I agree. We should be aiming for the low-hanging fruit.
 
Hi @Daniel DeLuca, thank you for your recommendation. I tried to purchase 3 volumes of the book "Thelyphthora", but could not because Amazon just wouldn't send them to my country. Hopefully, one day these Books would be accessible in my country.




I agree. We should be aiming for the low-hanging fruit.
There is a pdf copy of all three that is available online for free.

Here is a link to volume 1:
https://play.google.com/books/reader?id=KcD6UffuJ5kC&hl=en&pg=GBS.PA1
 
Back
Top