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A remarkable post by a sister in Christ
- Thread starter NVIII
- Start date
Sin has a way of preventing people from seeing their blessings. One of the hardest things about learning about God's plan for the family is that there is no guarantees. Many men's "influencers" blame the husband for an unsubmissive wife. The idea being if they were a better husband, their wife would "naturally" submit. Alternatively, women "influencers" can fall into the trap of making it seem like if they are submissive and feminine enough, an unloving husband will become loving.
The fact is, there is no guarantee that either party will get the desired result because it is not about the husband or wife, it is about each person's obedience to Christ. An unloving man can be unloving to even a wife seemingly as good as this woman.
Most of mankind manages to rebel against and be unloving toward Jesus, even though he gave himself up as the perfect sacrifice for us. If we humans have such a hard time acting properly toward Christ, it is no wonder we find it so hard to act properly toward each other. We can help our spouse in their walk with God by acting the way we should, making it easier for them to do the right thing. That doesn't mean they will and that doesn't change our individual duties.
And that is a point too many people seem to miss. One in the relationship Christ has with us is perfect but the other all too frequently stuffs up. No prizes for guessing who stuffs up! However it never results in Him failing to be perfect in His grace and mercy toward us. In the same way, there needs to be more grace and mercy toward one another for our failures in the relationships we have.
I've got to disagree here. If a man is confident, in control, and a good leader. His wife will naturally want to submit. I've seen it countless times in both secular and religious societies. It's innate to the created order.
1Likewise, ye wives, be in subjection to your own husbands; that, if any obey not the word, they also may without the word be won by the conversation of the wives; 2While they behold your chaste conversation coupled with fear. 3Whose adorning let it not be that outward adorning of plaiting the hair, and of wearing of gold, or of putting on of apparel; 4But let it be the hidden man of the heart, in that which is not corruptible, even the ornament of a meek and quiet spirit, which is in the sight of God of great price. 5For after this manner in the old time the holy women also, who trusted in God, adorned themselves, being in subjection unto their own husbands:
We might be speaking past each other. But to me scripture and nature itself teaches me that an authoritative man who is in his frame and about his business will set to rights with simple presence, a woman going astray. Likewise a woman obedient to the Lord, submitting herself to both God and her earthly master with her pure behavior and yielded heart can turn the spirit of even an unregenerate man towards God and into right action.
Amen. But, @NickF is also right that it often does work out. Praise God for that! And obey no matter if it doesn't work out.
I know this isn’t what you mean but many people take this line of reasoning and then turn it around and use it as a club to beat men with and then excuse rebellious women.
It sounds like this; “You’re wife isn’t submissive? You must be a bad husband. If you loved her with with love of Christ she’d submit. Stop being a bad husband and free her to be a good wife.”
The problem with this is that nothing in the Christian faith allows us to base our actions on the actions of others. Loving a wife is not hingent on her submitting. Submitting to a husband is not hingent on him loving.
I know that you know this and espouse it vociferously. But we are speaking to a people deliberately and militantly deceiving themselves at every turn. Our message has to be precise.
From what you have said, I think you are saying women will naturally want to submit to a good leader. On the opposite side, a husband may or may not be turned toward God by a good wife.
I think we only disagree about the natural tendency of women. I don't think women have a natural tendency to submit to a strong man. I think all of mankind struggles with pride and submission requires the setting aside of pride. That is especially difficult for women in a culture that has spoon fed women pride every day of their lives.
In this video, Anneliese (Feminine_not_Feminist) explains even though she knew God's design of marriage and respected her husband before they got married, after their marriage a spirit of rebellion just overtook her. Once she realized what happened, she has fought against it, but there are many women who have the double challenge of learning what God wants and then honestly evaluating their actions.
This is the curse of Eve. Women were created to submit but even when they want to they rebel. The average woman, upon embracing submission, may well actually become less submissive. Even when they have a great husband.
Women such as this are made not born. Her husband likely was the one to train her. It could have been her father, but it likely wouldn't have stuck without the husband's reinforcement. Women like this glorify their earthly lord.
And that's dumb.
I've heard it a lot, and yeah, some people just can't logic.
Our responsibility to obey God is never contingent upon the other person being good enough and respectful and submissive enough. We are to obey regardless
Agreed, I was specifically speaking to one component of the whole. I like to address men directly to what they need to do and focus on. And likewise address women directly as to what they should focus on. Women need to focus on themselves, their behavior, attitudes, and duties as a wife. Their actions and attitudes are for them to focus on to the exclusion of their circumstances and the man leading them. They are called to treat a crappy husband/leader the same as the best, most handsome, charismatic, loving, perfect chad of a man. They are to treat that man like God's envoy here on earth. If she came before God himself, she would fall on her face before Him. She would glorify Him and serve Him. I know, because that's exactly what I would do, what I'm called to do.
Ultimately a woman's actions and consequences fall upon the man who is her head. Her lack of submission is his failure. If my wife is a raging feminist, it's my responsibility and duty to correct her and change her to be a Godly woman. It is her responsibility to obey God and change herself certainly. If we are not good leaders, we must change to become better. Anybody who's had any dealing with the military knows that a man placed in authority who does not have the respect of his subordinates is going to have a hard row to hoe. Being worthy of that respect and honor makes it easy for those under his authority to obey. And just like in marriage, authority is naturally there, but respect is earned.
That's why I say:
Women - Obey, be submitted to, and reverence your husband. Every day, especially when he doesn't deserve it. You have no excuses or outs.
Men - Love your wife, treat her like a weaker vessel, wash her in the word, present her to yourself as a perfect bride. Especially when she doesn't deserve it. You have no excuses or outs.