I would like to hear the unabridged thoughts of the forum men on the true definition of biblical headship.
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Biblical Headship unabridged
- Thread starter yoderfamily
- Start date
This is the key issue. Whether we're monogamous, polygamous or celibate is almost a side issue. What's important is that we conduct those marriages in the manner God intended.
I am personally trending to the view that the majority of God's words are directed to men and veery few of them have direct application to women.
I can't back this up totally yet. I hope to look into it soon, but for a brief illustration take Adam and Eve. Eve was tempted. Eve sinned. Eve tempted Adam. Yet through Adam sin entered the world. Why? My wife pointed out today that Eve wasn't even given the command about the tree. It came before her creation.
This, and other things, are leading me to the conclusion that male headship is almost absolute and that men are held to a very standard than women, who receive a lot of lee way because of the role their husbands and fathers are supposed to play in their lives.
I am personally trending to the view that the majority of God's words are directed to men and veery few of them have direct application to women.
I can't back this up totally yet. I hope to look into it soon, but for a brief illustration take Adam and Eve. Eve was tempted. Eve sinned. Eve tempted Adam. Yet through Adam sin entered the world. Why? My wife pointed out today that Eve wasn't even given the command about the tree. It came before her creation.
This, and other things, are leading me to the conclusion that male headship is almost absolute and that men are held to a very standard than women, who receive a lot of lee way because of the role their husbands and fathers are supposed to play in their lives.
To me, headship is all about responsibility. So many people think it is about power or control, but it isn't. We as husbands are to love as Christ loved the church, i.e. sacrificially. We stand between the world and our families. We are strengthened by God and by the love of our wives. When the situation calls for it, we make the decisions that have to be made for the good of the family in the moment, and we bear the responsibility for those decisions. That does not mean we make *all* the decisions, however, and I believe there should be consensus and harmony among spouses. Proverbs calls for a wife to be wise, responsible, and make decisions that benefit the family as well. Wise husbands see the strengths in their wives and the weaknesses in themselves and act accordingly. If a wife is awesome at finances, and the husband is not, she should probably take the lead on them. Either way, all should be involved and aware to an extent. A man should lead by example, humbling himself before God and leading his family with love and service.
charles.pirkle
New Member
Amen!!
I don't think we always look at what the phrase "as Christ loved the church" means. We just look at the cross and we think it ends there. But Christ asked quite a lot of the church and at no point did he raise her up to His level. He wasn't afraid to call the church out. He wasn't afraid to cut her off. He wasn't afraid to call on her to sacrifice to the point of death.
Yes He was kind and gentle. But he was also stern and demanding. He had/has high standards for His bride. Remember the 10 foolish virgins. That was a parable of Christ as a bridegroom with his elect brides. Christ is perfectly willing for his beloved bride to suffer and die at his command or even if He fails to rescind a order.
Christ expects His bride to buy in to His goals and make His priorities her priorities. He requires sacrifice and devotion and certainly obedience.
I think sometimes we dumb down our wive's roles so we can dumb down our own obligation to our Heavenly Husband. Yes Christ loved the church, but He did not love her in anything remotely resembling the modern definition of the word. So when we read that we need to look at how Christ behaves towards the church to define our idea of a loving husband, not use our idea of a loving husband to inform how we think Christ loved the church.
Yes He was kind and gentle. But he was also stern and demanding. He had/has high standards for His bride. Remember the 10 foolish virgins. That was a parable of Christ as a bridegroom with his elect brides. Christ is perfectly willing for his beloved bride to suffer and die at his command or even if He fails to rescind a order.
Christ expects His bride to buy in to His goals and make His priorities her priorities. He requires sacrifice and devotion and certainly obedience.
I think sometimes we dumb down our wive's roles so we can dumb down our own obligation to our Heavenly Husband. Yes Christ loved the church, but He did not love her in anything remotely resembling the modern definition of the word. So when we read that we need to look at how Christ behaves towards the church to define our idea of a loving husband, not use our idea of a loving husband to inform how we think Christ loved the church.
That is my understanding zephyr . You are one of the first to speak out. Why have men been so missled on this issue. (Searing grief). That is more important to me than any plural marriage. And my belief of what any marriage should be based on. If I cannot be the husband and father God created me to be then what am I worthy of.
Of course we should have high standards and that we're not meant to just be walked on or anything (though I have to point out that not all 10 virgins were foolish). But in all cases where sacrifice is called for, it is for the glory of God, not for his personal comfort or anything like that. He asked nothing less of the church than he gave of himself. I really don't think guys raising up women has traditionally been a big problem in our society, really quite the opposite. Abusive, selfish treatment of women has been far more the norm.
This is the issue that the enemy can not lose. If he loses the near heresy of servant leadership then he loses his grip on the American church. He has to keep us thinking that men are supposed to be powerless in practice, that we should curtail our natures and suppress our instincts. If he can do this he wins two different battles and makes huge strides in a third.
Obviously if men aren't leading their families with a Godly hand then families are adrift. But also God's nature isn't being accurately portrayed to our sons and daughters, this is maybe the biggest tragedy because the dysfunction is passed down to another generation. The third battle is that if we don't demonstrate God's character then it becomes very hard for our wives to demonstrate the proper way to relate to God.
And that's what gets lost a lot. God didn't give women this role because He hates them. Its a deeply impactful calling to be a living witness of what He expects to all of us in relation to him. In many ways it is the more significant of the two roles because it is more directly teaches how we should live.
Sorry to get preachy, especially to the choir but this issue is my passion.
Obviously if men aren't leading their families with a Godly hand then families are adrift. But also God's nature isn't being accurately portrayed to our sons and daughters, this is maybe the biggest tragedy because the dysfunction is passed down to another generation. The third battle is that if we don't demonstrate God's character then it becomes very hard for our wives to demonstrate the proper way to relate to God.
And that's what gets lost a lot. God didn't give women this role because He hates them. Its a deeply impactful calling to be a living witness of what He expects to all of us in relation to him. In many ways it is the more significant of the two roles because it is more directly teaches how we should live.
Sorry to get preachy, especially to the choir but this issue is my passion.
UntoldGlory not to make excuses for men being abusive. But what is this culture taking away from these adolescent men that is making them retreat into this kind of behavior.
Why the biblical headship that is theirs by birth right. When that birthright is trampled on man will respond like a man.
Now the nature of Christ within us might keep us from violence and selfishness and can remove the pain of being disrespected. But that doesn't fix the root of the problem. The problem is still that God's order has been circumvented therefore bearing consequences.
Why the biblical headship that is theirs by birth right. When that birthright is trampled on man will respond like a man.
Now the nature of Christ within us might keep us from violence and selfishness and can remove the pain of being disrespected. But that doesn't fix the root of the problem. The problem is still that God's order has been circumvented therefore bearing consequences.
To me this whole issue of a biblical family revolves around the biblical headship. Considering another wife should be at the lower end of the list. Yet that doesn't seem as popular.
It reminds me of Matthew 23:23 of having omitted the weightier matters. :,)
It reminds me of Matthew 23:23 of having omitted the weightier matters. :,)
I heard or read somewhere that the price of a virtuous woman (far above rubies) is equivalent to 4 billion dollars. Supposedly according to the study. I have looked but never found anything to back that up (Did like the number though). Wondering if anybody out there has anything to contribute towards that. When it was first brought up it overwhelmed me. How carefully and delicately would we handle such a valuable item. What immense time would we dedicate to the preservation of such.
But my valuable asset gave me to understand that she doesn't like being referenced as being property.
Yet it would be my heart to be the property of my Heavenly Father. I have no qualms in being classified as such. What is the difference? ???
But my valuable asset gave me to understand that she doesn't like being referenced as being property.
Yet it would be my heart to be the property of my Heavenly Father. I have no qualms in being classified as such. What is the difference? ???
One major difference is that we are Christ's slaves and property on an often theoretical basis. He is exalted and doth not appear before us. We assume ourselves to be doing His will more often than we actually do it, and have a very long leash indeed because of His great mercy.
An earthly husband is always before the eyes of his wife, picking his nose and leaving the seat up.
We have no problem being classified as property by a being whom we never see, whose judgment we cannot question, and whose will we are terrible at discerning. If I act as though I am bought with a price, it is on a purely voluntary basis, subject to my extremely fickle daily whims.
My wife knows where I am, knows that I make many mistakes, and knows pretty well the exact details of what I expect of her.
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Which sort of brings me to the idea of headship. Christ Himself is fairly clear about what He expects of us, and yet is extremely lenient on a day to day basis and allows us to voluntarily obey Him, to receive judgment at a later time. He hears our prayers, requests, and complaints. He intercedes for us continually.
Should our wives consider thesmselves our property? Of course. When we say something they should hop to just like the Church should when Jesus says something, or I don't understand Eph. 5:22. The exemplar of course is Sarah, who called her husband Lord. (while chuckling about the promises of God).
But what is that to us? Women are fickle and when the bible calls them weaker, probably it's talking about something a little more profound than the likely winner of an arm wrestling match. We should lead them, teach them, and be as clear as we can be about our expectations of them, but not hold our breath waiting for them to meet them.
Yeesh. If the Church's relationship with the Lord is meant to be analogous to husbands and wives, Church history should really lower our expectations about how all this domesticity is really going to play out.
Man... if I hadn't already married a good woman, I think I would have just talked me out of having anything to do with them.
An earthly husband is always before the eyes of his wife, picking his nose and leaving the seat up.
We have no problem being classified as property by a being whom we never see, whose judgment we cannot question, and whose will we are terrible at discerning. If I act as though I am bought with a price, it is on a purely voluntary basis, subject to my extremely fickle daily whims.
My wife knows where I am, knows that I make many mistakes, and knows pretty well the exact details of what I expect of her.
---
Which sort of brings me to the idea of headship. Christ Himself is fairly clear about what He expects of us, and yet is extremely lenient on a day to day basis and allows us to voluntarily obey Him, to receive judgment at a later time. He hears our prayers, requests, and complaints. He intercedes for us continually.
Should our wives consider thesmselves our property? Of course. When we say something they should hop to just like the Church should when Jesus says something, or I don't understand Eph. 5:22. The exemplar of course is Sarah, who called her husband Lord. (while chuckling about the promises of God).
But what is that to us? Women are fickle and when the bible calls them weaker, probably it's talking about something a little more profound than the likely winner of an arm wrestling match. We should lead them, teach them, and be as clear as we can be about our expectations of them, but not hold our breath waiting for them to meet them.
Yeesh. If the Church's relationship with the Lord is meant to be analogous to husbands and wives, Church history should really lower our expectations about how all this domesticity is really going to play out.
Man... if I hadn't already married a good woman, I think I would have just talked me out of having anything to do with them.
I think I will be renaming slumberfreeze to awakethefire.
Very well put. I'm sure you made all the ladies giggle at the party on your growing up journey. You even made me smile.
Church history lowering our expectations! ! A very valid point.
Very well put. I'm sure you made all the ladies giggle at the party on your growing up journey. You even made me smile.
Church history lowering our expectations! ! A very valid point.
You are reading my thoughts. Get out of my head!
Oh yes. There were those whom I entertained and those who are eternally unamused at my antics. I've had them laugh while I was being quite straitforward and begin weeping while I was telling self depricating jokes. I don't really understand them. My wife is awesome though. I had some seriously low expectations about marriage and my wife believed at the time that she was destined to live with a tyrannical man who would abuse her. She lucked out and was only half right. (Sic semper...)
Better to be a pessimist and be surprised at how well things keep turning out.
Zephyr; I can only honor your request when you start thinking boring thoughts.
Better to be a pessimist and be surprised at how well things keep turning out.
Zephyr; I can only honor your request when you start thinking boring thoughts.
I appreciate all the thoughts posted on this thread. I have to keep going back and rereading. I found plenty of new angles to apply in my life.
I have been blessed with a Godly wife who I really appreciate. But somehow along the way she got the idea polygany was about domination of men over their wives. A result of me using her as a sounding board and not fully realizing she wasn't keeping up with me. Thru that I ended up antagonizing her but we are in the process of rebuilding our relationship. (Believe me guys, take time to see where your spouses are because just because you think its smooth sailing doesn't mean you didn't leave a wake of waves behind you.) She still believes polygany is related to witchcraft but am hoping she will open up to meet some of my poly friends. I am trying to avoid pressuring her into anything which means separating my scriptural studies from hers as she believes I have lost my connection to the Holy Spirit and doesn't trust my interpretation of anything. We have a civil relationship and she wanted me at the birth of our daughter versus her mom who is a midwife. :roll:
Would just love to hear more discussions on how to integrate biblical headship into our homes.
I have been blessed with a Godly wife who I really appreciate. But somehow along the way she got the idea polygany was about domination of men over their wives. A result of me using her as a sounding board and not fully realizing she wasn't keeping up with me. Thru that I ended up antagonizing her but we are in the process of rebuilding our relationship. (Believe me guys, take time to see where your spouses are because just because you think its smooth sailing doesn't mean you didn't leave a wake of waves behind you.) She still believes polygany is related to witchcraft but am hoping she will open up to meet some of my poly friends. I am trying to avoid pressuring her into anything which means separating my scriptural studies from hers as she believes I have lost my connection to the Holy Spirit and doesn't trust my interpretation of anything. We have a civil relationship and she wanted me at the birth of our daughter versus her mom who is a midwife. :roll:
Would just love to hear more discussions on how to integrate biblical headship into our homes.
UntoldGlory said:
I have reservations about both of these two statements.
UntoldGlory said:
Men putting women on pedestals has in fact been a problem. It is a less obvious, but potentially just as serious, problem as the opposite but it has been a problem.
- For instance, a mother is frequently automatically considered the better parent in divorce cases even when she isn't. That isn't good for either the child or the father.
- Another example is all of the men who spent years in prison for rape on the basis of witness testimony but were later cleared by DNA evidence. The men were considered guilty until proven innocent at the original trials but it was later proven through hard DNA evidence that it was impossible for them to have raped the victim.
- In another thread on this very forum I'm being treated as guilty until proven innocent, or more accurately 'don't bother trying to prove innocence because nobody's listening anyway', when I asked a question that involved my having been maltreated by women in my past.
Speaking as a male victim of both child and spouse abuse I can tell you from personal experience that women are just as capable of "abusive/selfish treatment" as men are.UntoldGlory said:
Based on the number of men that I see in the sexual abuse therapy groups at the VA I have to wonder if the idea that men abusing women is the "norm" isn't an illusion caused by the fact that our culture puts women on pedestals.
I never claimed that women were incapable of being abusers. I grieve that anyone, male or female, suffers abuse. I stand by the numbers though that men are more commonly the abusers. I too am in the military, I get all the Sexual Assault Prevention and Response training. I know men in society are not immune to abuse or attack, and that they are more likely to be dismissed or ostracized. However I also know that even in the case of men being attacked, the attackers are most commonly men.
Courts have often found in favor of mothers or female victims when they shouldn't have, yes. I believe this is primarily because men continue to fail in their duty and calling. Fathers walk out on their responsibilities and their families. Men have long dominated when they should have been leading. I mean, you can't even watch a movie from the 80's or early 90's without seeing blatant and fully accepted displays of sexism and harassment.
I'm sorry that you feel attacked in the other thread. I don't believe that you are being attacked. You asked for advice and people gave it. In fact if I recall correctly you specifically asked what *you* could or should do differently, not what those women should have done differently. And frankly, if you were a woman who had been in five abusive relationships, I'm pretty sure people would also be asking you the same kinds of questions, questions like "where are you meeting these people".
Courts have often found in favor of mothers or female victims when they shouldn't have, yes. I believe this is primarily because men continue to fail in their duty and calling. Fathers walk out on their responsibilities and their families. Men have long dominated when they should have been leading. I mean, you can't even watch a movie from the 80's or early 90's without seeing blatant and fully accepted displays of sexism and harassment.
I'm sorry that you feel attacked in the other thread. I don't believe that you are being attacked. You asked for advice and people gave it. In fact if I recall correctly you specifically asked what *you* could or should do differently, not what those women should have done differently. And frankly, if you were a woman who had been in five abusive relationships, I'm pretty sure people would also be asking you the same kinds of questions, questions like "where are you meeting these people".
Moderator hat on:
Let's not bring the debate about whether or not people have been attacking Wesley in another thread over here. I've locked that thread to cool it, I don't want to see the same argument spill over here instead so will be deleting any further comments referring to it. Peace.
Let's not bring the debate about whether or not people have been attacking Wesley in another thread over here. I've locked that thread to cool it, I don't want to see the same argument spill over here instead so will be deleting any further comments referring to it. Peace.
Okay, getting back to the topic of the OP...
One thing that I have pointed out many times in the past is that the word "submit", as used in the New Testament, is a verb not a noun. It is something that a woman does not something that is done to her.
A good patriarch leads by example not by brutality. There is no command that requires a husband to enforce the submission of a wife and there are several commands that prohibit him from doing so. The most basic is the second greatest commandment but the rule on idolatry also applies. A man who tries to force a woman to submit is effectively trying to set himself up as an idol in her life.
When a man tries to force a woman to submit he is placing a stumbling block in front of his wife by trying to make her violate this teaching of Christ.
yoderfamily said:
One thing that I have pointed out many times in the past is that the word "submit", as used in the New Testament, is a verb not a noun. It is something that a woman does not something that is done to her.
A good patriarch leads by example not by brutality. There is no command that requires a husband to enforce the submission of a wife and there are several commands that prohibit him from doing so. The most basic is the second greatest commandment but the rule on idolatry also applies. A man who tries to force a woman to submit is effectively trying to set himself up as an idol in her life.
The Disciple Luke said:
When a man tries to force a woman to submit he is placing a stumbling block in front of his wife by trying to make her violate this teaching of Christ.