Breaking faith with the potential second wife

[Wesley]

Exodus 21:8 NIV
8 If she does not please the master who has selected her for himself, he must let her be redeemed. He has no right to sell her to foreigners, because he has broken faith with her.

Exodus 21:8 KJV
8 If she please not her master, who hath betrothed her to himself, then shall he let her be redeemed: to sell her unto a strange nation he shall have no power, seeing he hath dealt deceitfully with her.

Too many people fail to recognize the rights of the second wife, or potential wife, when the first wife throws a fit and wants monogamy. If a man sends away a woman he is courting because his first wife throws a fit he has "broken faith" or "dealt deceitfully" with with the second woman.

1 Corinthians 7:9 NIV
9 But if they cannot control themselves, they should marry, for it is better to marry than to burn with passion.

When we neglect a woman's desire for a husband and family, be it sexual or otherwise so long as she is willing to take care of her family in order to get her needs met, we place a stumbling block in front of her that could cause her to commit adultery. (1 Corinthians 7:2-5) We all know what Christ thinks about causing another to stumble. (Matthew 18:6, Mark 9:42, Luke 17:2)

James 2:15-17 NIV
15 Suppose a brother or a sister is without clothes and daily food. 16 If one of you says to them, “Go in peace; keep warm and well fed,” but does nothing about their physical needs, what good is it? 17 In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead.

A woman has needs just like everyone else. It is our responsibility to meet those needs when we can.

In another thread I brought up the disparity between the marriageable men and marriageable women. I don't want to get into a debate over exact numbers but we all know that women who want a stable home and family outnumber the men who want to provide that for them.

In that discussion I brought up the following reality. I felt like it warranted further discussion on its own merit.

When a first wife throws a fit and demands monogamy the available options from my perspective (the man's) are...

• Submit to my first wife's desires by turning away the potential second wife, a woman who has dealt with me in good faith.
  • Not fair to me because the first wife made a promise and is breaking it
  • Not fair to second wife because she has dealt with us in good faith and is disgraced by being sent away (Exodus 21:8)
  • Not fair to God because He wants His daughters taken care of (1 Peter 3:7) and He neither commanded nor authorized me to submit to my wife rather than to Him. (Genesis 3:17)

• Send the first wife away because she's being disobedient
  • Unacceptable because sending a wife away for any reason except sexual immorality is adultery (Matthew 5:32)
  • Not fair to the first wife (Exodus 21:8) because God also neither commanded nor authorized a man to submit to his second wife in this regard any more than the first (again, Genesis 3:17)

• Attempt to continue the relationship with both women hoping that neither one chooses to leave
  • This is the only biblically acceptable option from my perspective
  • If the first wife chooses to leave then she is worse than an unbeliever for neglecting to take care of the members of her household (1 Timothy 5:8) and thus I am not bound in the situation. (1 Corinthians 7:15) The sin is on her and is thus between her and God. (John 8:7) So long as I have dealt with her in good faith to the promises I have made (which have never included a monogamous promise) then I have committed no sin.
  • If the second wife chooses to leave she may or may not be sinning depending on whether the marriage has been consummated or not but any sin that occurs is between her and God. (John 8:7) So long as I have dealt with her in good faith to the promises I have made (which have never included a monogamous promise) then I have committed no sin.

 

[Jack P.]

I like this train of scripture and thought you have put together. Thank you for your time to study then share. Along those lines let's say ( and women chime I. Here too)
Story;
A man is married to a woman after a few years he decides that the family is being led to a poly life. Husband and wife discusses it and she says she will try. The wait and search is over the court ship has ended and the second wife is added to the family. And since there should be no sex before the marriage , even though during the last part of the courtship she had lived In The same house. The first wife is ok and dealing with it. Until the second wife's wedding nite has past. She realizes that the thought of "her" husband with "another women" is to much to bare and in a state of jealousy, hurt, and tears insist that the second be cut loose. If the man stands strong on the PM life if the first leaves or the second who has sinned anyone everyone no one? And the last part of the story can be reversed and it be the second wife that can't handle it.
The End

Ok weigh in, because this could be a reality for me some day and I have heard that it has become the reality for others.

Jack P.
In His Jamel

 

[Wesley]

A man is married to a woman after a few years he decides that the family is being led to a poly life. Husband and wife discusses it and she says she will try.

This is the part where I relate differently than most men. The difference is that I have never made a monogamous promise, not even once in my entire life, so the whole issue of needing to get the first wife's consent because of a monogamous promise falls flat with regard to me. No such promise was ever made in my case. Every woman that I've ever married knew in advance that I am a polygamist and chose to marry me anyway, they promised as part of the vows in the marriage ceremony to be my first wife of several, therefore no further consent from the first wife is required in my case.

I have been in the situation several times of a woman promising to be my first wife of several and then going back on that promise later, and demanding monogamy or else she would leave, in spite of my best efforts at helping her cope with her own emotional reactions to the situation.

I'm still not sure where I stand on the issue of monogamous promises by men and what effect that has on the ensuing marriage. Then again I don't necessarily have to understand that issue since I've never made one and I probably shouldn't try to stand in judgment of men who have anyway.

I do have a comparable experience in that pursuing polygamy requires ongoing communication, not just a one-time promise from the woman. Any relationship requires ongoing communication. When the communication stops so does the relationship. I wasn't the one who shut down communication on the subject of polygamy in my prior marriages. It was more like every time I tried to talk about it (frequently) I was met with an increasingly hostile response. That's the only context I have for understanding the situation of men who have made monogamous promises though.

 

[Slumberfreeze]

"Suppose one of you wants to build a tower. Won't you first sit down and estimate the cost to see if you have enough money to complete it? For if you lay the foundation and are not able to finish it, everyone who sees it will ridicule you, saying, 'This person began to build and wasn't able to finish.'

I really can't argue against your logic in the case of an existing second wife. At that point there's nothing to do but your very best in a bad situation.

When discussing a potential second wife, I look to the wisdom of this passage. It may be that a woman should have a man, but the man that thinks he IS the man should count the cost and estimate his abilities. Can he provide a stable home for these females? Not just theoretical women, but these actual two chickens, one of which is tantruming and threatening to leave, and the other one who is currently enjoying being the object of an already married man's twitterpation. (I assume a lot, but my history with females has led me to view their motives dimly)

Monogamy is a concept embedded deep in the hearts of most modern women. It's leaves are in fantasy, it's trunk is in intellectual assent, and it's root system is sunk into the will. If the thing hasn't been really and truly torn out, root and all, there will be a visceral reaction. This vile doctrine of 'one woman per man' is likely to be every bit as stubborn as an alcoholic's vice. I believe it can be overcome, cast out, and healed by the same power which can heal all wounds. I also believe it should be done (completed, finished) well before actually marrying another woman, if there is no emergency.

The goal, I think, of a polygamous family is for a man to have his wives in submission to him, in cooperation with each other, in the fear of the Lord. (I really can't fathom any other acceptable goal) I think every would be patriarch should be a 'wise master builder' and make super sure the foundation is able to really bear up under an addition. If it's not? I think the focus should be on what already exists. Does the first wife need maybe time to calm down and digest? A better understanding of submission? A more thorough explanation of biblical doctrines? Deliverance from a spirit of rebellion, or demon of monogamy (if such a thing exists)? To be prayed and fasted for?

I don't really know what each case needs, but anything's got to be better than wrecking shop with the wife of our youth. Unless, as I stated earlier, there is an urgent and pressing need that necessitates playing hard ball.

 

[Wesley]

"Suppose one of you wants to build a tower. Won't you first sit down and estimate the cost to see if you have enough money to complete it? For if you lay the foundation and are not able to finish it, everyone who sees it will ridicule you, saying, 'This person began to build and wasn't able to finish.'

This is Luke 14:28-29. I'm very familiar with the passage and employ it in almost all of my pursuits, including all of my successful ones.

Thank you. I always enjoy reading the words of my lord Christ.

I really can't argue against your logic in the case of an existing second wife. At that point there's nothing to do but your very best in a bad situation.

First? Second? Third? If your name happens to be King David (mine's not) then it could be twelfth, fifteenth or twentieth? (2 Samuel) One way or the other the commands of God do not change. All wives are to be treated equally because they are all God's precious daughters.

When discussing a potential second wife, I look to the wisdom of this passage.

It may be that a woman should have a man, but the man that thinks he IS the man should count the cost and estimate his abilities.

I did. How common is that though? I can only speak from my own experience so I'm not sure what other men have done.

Can he provide a stable home for these females? Not just theoretical women, but these actual two chickens, one of which is tantruming and threatening to leave, and the other one who is currently enjoying being the object of an already married man's twitterpation. (I assume a lot, but my history with females has led me to view their motives dimly)

You got one thing right. You do assume a lot.

Monogamy is a concept embedded deep in the hearts of most modern women. It's leaves are in fantasy, it's trunk is in intellectual assent, and it's root system is sunk into the will. If the thing hasn't been really and truly torn out, root and all, there will be a visceral reaction. This vile doctrine of 'one woman per man' is likely to be every bit as stubborn as an alcoholic's vice. I believe it can be overcome, cast out, and healed by the same power which can heal all wounds. I also believe it should be done (completed, finished) well before actually marrying another woman, if there is no emergency.

We agree on that point.

The goal, I think, of a polygamous family is for a man to have his wives in submission to him, in cooperation with each other, in the fear of the Lord. (I really can't fathom any other acceptable goal) I think every would be patriarch should be a 'wise master builder' and make super sure the foundation is able to really bear up under an addition. If it's not? I think the focus should be on what already exists. Does the first wife need maybe time to calm down and digest? A better understanding of submission? A more thorough explanation of biblical doctrines? Deliverance from a spirit of rebellion, or demon of monogamy (if such a thing exists)? To be prayed and fasted for?

Once again, we agree. That is why I did exactly what you are describing.

Unfortunately I got bitten by the truth of one of Christ's other prophecies.

Matthew 12:43-45 NIV
43 “When an impure spirit comes out of a person, it goes through arid places seeking rest and does not find it. 44 Then it says, ‘I will return to the house I left.’ When it arrives, it finds the house unoccupied, swept clean and put in order. 45 Then it goes and takes with it seven other spirits more wicked than itself, and they go in and live there. And the final condition of that person is worse than the first.

The women in question let the demon(s) back in after I drove them out, in one case twice. Once again I don't know what other men have done in similar situations.

I don't really know what each case needs, but anything's got to be better than wrecking shop with the wife of our youth. Unless, as I stated earlier, there is an urgent and pressing need that necessitates playing hard ball.

What is the man supposed to do when he's not the one "wrecking shop"?

John 8:7 still applies so when a woman decides to commit adultery by divorcing her husband and remarrying the husband cannot stone her. To assume that the husband is automatically at fault and the wife is automatically innocent is to completely abandon the truth of Christ.

The truth of Christ is that both men and women are sinners and either one, or both, could be the guilty party. In my case it was the women involved who made promises and then broke them.

If it can happen to me then it seems that it could happen to other men as well. Should we not discuss the issue?

 

[Jack P.]

"Should we not discuss the issue"

I thought that is what we were doing? ( could someone explain to me how you all are get part of a response pasted into your replies. I can get the whole post but not just the part that I want ie should we not discuss the issue. ).

Ok now that, that is out of the way where was I ? ---- Oh I think that every women, man and marriage is different.
Not with standing the obvious.
God
Man
Woman
Bible
etc.

Different as in the human emotions. We are of the flesh and by nature the flesh is sinful. I would hazard a guess, "A GUESS " that all of us at one time or another have said or made a commitment just to find out later that no matter how much we wanted to honor that commitment we found the emotional or physical cost to high to bear.
First and most common when I have had a discussion like this with others " get on your knees and pray" that is easy to say when you are not the one in pain. I have lost three children to heaven, it HURT people with a well intentioned heart would say pray and all will be well. Everyone that made that statement or the classic prelude to that "I know how you feel" WHAT !!! No they didn't even if they had lost a child they didn't and don't know how it made me feel. I wanted to really lite into them, but because of me up bring and Godly love in my heart I didn't. I tell this to all of you to show that a woman that says yes and commits to PM my find that it is to heavy on her heart. 1. The other woman
2. The loss of contact
with her family
3 the loss of her Church,
Fellowship and
Support.
4 the sense of her place
Her role in the family
Another women
Interacting with her
Children.
The list goes on and I am sure that some of the women on this site can add to it.

Yes it is the place of the house head to address these things but if the wife cannot express the feeling in a way that the husband can understand the importance it has with her.
Well then to say "I understand how you feel" or " if you just pray it will all be ok" is callous, insensitive, cold and not loving at all. And is that not the greatest commend of all LOVE. Please don't mistake this post for anti-plural marriage, I feel lead by God to establish my own plural family someday. But I made a commitment to my current wife that I would not bible beat her or back her into a corner over that life style. I am the head of my house (my wife said I could be just ask her. Small amount of levity ) but rally I could say this is the way it is going to be and she would submit, for how long no one knows.
So now I put my soap box back under my couch and ask. How have the men that are in along lasting plural marriage handle these things ? It is obvious that I nor the men that have still only one wife or the men that have failed at it don't know So if as many men that have successful marriages could chime in then the rest of us my be able to glean useful information from them.

Thank you for reading this novel. I don't mean any of this post to be mean hearted or upset any of you, you that I hope to build long strong friendships with.

Jack P.
In His name

 

[Jack P.]

Excuse any typos and misspelling as I was proofing the post my fat sausage thumb hit send

 

[sweetlissa]

I found that the sexual aspect was the least of the problems with having additional wives. That was easy to let go of for me. For me, the hardest part was the interpersonal relationships. Trust had to be the biggest factor with all involved. If there is not a deep abiding trust between all parties involved it will not work. If every wife feels that the other wives are trying to "get rid of her" or replace her in any way then there are automatic defenses that happen. Each wife is responsible for her relationship with the husband. It is not for a new wife to come in and take over stuff but to see where she fits in and the whole family adapts to the new person. In my poly relationship I was faulted for being too close to hubby. I constantly felt like I had to give up my bond with hubby in order to please the new person. That was hard. Poly should be about positive relationships not destructive ones. If any member of the family has to give up her own relationship with the husband, that is wrong. A new wife has the opportunity to forge her own bond with the husband. Destroying the other relationships will not make hers stronger.

 

[yoderfamily]

How can you break faith with the first wife if you love her as a neighbor whom you are commanded to love as yourself?

We have read a lot recently about the wife's role . Now what if the husband role of loving his wife trumps that of her submitting?

 

[Slumberfreeze]

Ack. Wesley, I'm trying to discuss the issue. What I'm not discussing is you or your past. If that's what you are trying to discuss, then I am out like trout. My commentary on this issue was not meant to be an indictment of your actions, any more than your initial post was meant to be a defense of your actions.

I have no illusions that you desire to continue this discussion with me, but if you do: could you be a bit less defensive? I'm not attacking you.

Are we on for this or not?

 

[UntoldGlory]

If everything up to marriage with a second (3rd, 4th, whatever) wife has been on par, and she was really on board with poly/the addition of a wife (as opposed to to grudgingly accepting, or accepting a glossed over, ignore-the-bit-over-there, version of what to expect), then hopefully the "ultimatum" of "me or her" won't happen, or if it does, is only an emotional stage that needs to be worked through.

If, reasons aside, one wife demands that you leave another to be with her, I don't think it matters which is the first wife and which is the second (or whatever other numbers). A husband's responsibility is a husband's responsibility, period. He should not "choose" one over the other by kicking one wife out or anything like that. As long as she is willing to stay, he should do whatever he can to repair the relationships. Now I don't think that means "meeting demands" or anything like that, but personal sacrifice should not be a factor, in my opinion. If a wife does decide to leave, then everything that can be done (without sacrificing the needs of any other wife) to reconcile and bring her home should be done as well.

 

[Wesley]

Ack. Wesley, I'm trying to discuss the issue. What I'm not discussing is you or your past. If that's what you are trying to discuss, then I am out like trout. My commentary on this issue was not meant to be an indictment of your actions, any more than your initial post was meant to be a defense of your actions.

I have no illusions that you desire to continue this discussion with me, but if you do: could you be a bit less defensive? I'm not attacking you.

Are we on for this or not?

My apologies for sounding defensive. I did not believe that you were attacking me but I can only discuss things from the basis of my own experience. I confessed in an earlier comment to the thread that I do have a slightly different perspective than most men because of my experiences. I was attempting to share my own point of view.

 

[Wesley]

I found that the sexual aspect was the least of the problems with having additional wives. That was easy to let go of for me. For me, the hardest part was the interpersonal relationships. Trust had to be the biggest factor with all involved. If there is not a deep abiding trust between all parties involved it will not work. If every wife feels that the other wives are trying to "get rid of her" or replace her in any way then there are automatic defenses that happen. Each wife is responsible for her relationship with the husband. It is not for a new wife to come in and take over stuff but to see where she fits in and the whole family adapts to the new person. In my poly relationship I was faulted for being too close to hubby. I constantly felt like I had to give up my bond with hubby in order to please the new person. That was hard. Poly should be about positive relationships not destructive ones. If any member of the family has to give up her own relationship with the husband, that is wrong. A new wife has the opportunity to forge her own bond with the husband. Destroying the other relationships will not make hers stronger.

Thank you for sharing your perspective.

You're not the first woman that I've encountered who said that the interpersonal relationship was harder to deal with than the sex. I've encountered a lot of differing view points on that issue.

When developing a relationship with a potential second wife several things will happen...

• The husband
  1. The husband will have some emotional responses that are responses to real problems. No relationship is without real problems.
  2. The husband will have some emotional responses that are NOT responses to real problems. While there is no problem to solve the emotions must be dealt with.
• The First Wife
  1. The first wife will have some emotional responses that are responses to real problems. No relationship is without real problems.
  2. The first wife will have some emotional responses that are NOT responses to real problems. While there is no problem to solve the emotions must be dealt with.
• The (Potential?) Second wife
  1. The second wife will have some emotional responses that are responses to real problems. No relationship is without real problems.
  2. The second wife will have some emotional responses that are NOT responses to real problems. While there is no problem to solve the emotions must be dealt with.

Dealing with the emotions that result from inaccurate perceptions, rather than real events, has always been the hardest for me. I've got my own emotions under control, and when I don't (i.e. PTSD) I seek therapy, but getting the women in my life to do the same thing has been hard.

The therapists told me that I am not responsible for the emotions of others. I can help them cope with their emotions, by such tactics as active listening and validating their right to feel what they feel regardless of whether it makes sense or not, but I can't do the work for them of coping with their own emotional responses.

 

[Wesley]

( could someone explain to me how you all are get part of a response pasted into your replies. I can get the whole post but not just the part that I want ie should we not discuss the issue. ).

When you click the quote button it will give you a text entry box for entering your message and there will already be some text in it. At the beginning and end of the quote you will see the beginning code that lets the browser know that you are starting a quote and the ending code that lets the browser know that the quote is done. You will know the beginning and ending codes because they will be in brackets.

To break up the quote simply copy and paste the beginning code and ending code at the beginning and end of the sections of the quote. Make sure to include the brackets. It doesn't work without them.

Keep in mind that beginning and ending codes work in pairs. Just like you can't have a marriage without a husband and wife you can't have a quote without a beginning code and an ending code.

I would hazard a guess, "A GUESS " that all of us at one time or another have said or made a commitment just to find out later that no matter how much we wanted to honor that commitment we found the emotional or physical cost to high to bear.

I've heard this stated before. In some cases there is no problem with this statement. In others there is a significant problem with this statement.

When a person applies the same standard to men...

• i.e. A man that makes a monogamous promise and then finds the pain too hard to bear is excused from his promise and doesn't need to seek his wife's permission to be polygamous.

...then there is no problem with the statement.

When the person is NOT willing to apply the same standard to men...

• i.e. Expects a man who made a monogamous promise to keep that promise unless the wife releases him from it but then claims that a woman should be released from her polygamous promise simply because it's too hard.

...I tend to perceive that person as more of a hypocrite.

Unfortunately most of the people that I have heard make such statements fit the latter category rather than the former. They want to release my exes from their polygamous promises but then hold the men who made monogamous promises to theirs. That's called hypocrisy.

Worse, in many cases the people who were making such statements wanted to hold me to a monogamous promise that I never made, not even once in my entire life, while releasing the women in my life from their polygamous promises for various reasons such as an imagined biblical prohibition on polygamy.

 

[Jack P.]

Thx

 

[Wesley]

If, reasons aside, one wife demands that you leave another to be with her, I don't think it matters which is the first wife and which is the second (or whatever other numbers). A husband's responsibility is a husband's responsibility, period. He should not "choose" one over the other by kicking one wife out or anything like that. As long as she is willing to stay, he should do whatever he can to repair the relationships. Now I don't think that means "meeting demands" or anything like that, but personal sacrifice should not be a factor, in my opinion. If a wife does decide to leave, then everything that can be done (without sacrificing the needs of any other wife) to reconcile and bring her home should be done as well.

I agree with you completely here. Emotions should be acknowledged and supported by the partners whether they make sense or not. I have PTSD. I would be a major hypocrite, something I try very hard to avoid, if I expected my wife (or hopefully at some future point wives) to be supportive of of me in coping with the irrational emotions associated with my PTSD but I did not want to support them with their feelings.

If everything up to marriage with a second (3rd, 4th, whatever) wife has been on par, and she was really on board with poly/the addition of a wife (as opposed to to grudgingly accepting, or accepting a glossed over, ignore-the-bit-over-there, version of what to expect), then hopefully the "ultimatum" of "me or her" won't happen, or if it does, is only an emotional stage that needs to be worked through.

That's the ideal. If every situation matched the ideal then I would have six wives living with me right now.

 

[Wesley]

Thx

You're welcome.

 

[FollowingHim]

First Wesley, let me be very clear that I am not talking about your past, rather the issue at hand, just like Slumberfreeze. However you are illustrating that issue both from your studies of scripture, and your own personal experience. This is very helpful, because we can learn from both, thankyou for being so open in this discussion.

That's the ideal. If every situation matched the ideal then I would have six wives living with me right now.

In other words, you have tried this approach with six women, yet as I understand it you are still not a polygamist. In my line of work we would call this a very well replicated experiment with an unusually conclusive result. It didn't work. Therefore, there must be some flaw in the logic.

Having seen that, we have to go back to work out where the flaw is. And I can see two main potential areas:


1) Considering that you have equal obligations to the current wife and a POTENTIAL second.

I fully agree that once you are married to two women you have equal obligations to both. But when one is only a potential, you have no obligations to her whatsoever. Your wife is more important than a potential. The result of this is that it reinforces to the wife, throughout the second courtship, that she is valuable to you. So valuable that she's more important than the potential, at least at this stage. And it also means that you are going to prioritise anything that helps to preserve the first marriage over anything that works towards the second. Meaning you're more likely to be successful in both ventures.

I often say that there is no point in taking a second wife if you lose the first. You haven't gained anything, you're still a monogamist, just a sad one with a more complicated life than before. Note that I don't say this to condemn those who find themselves in this situation (there are a number here), rather as a warning for others considering how to approach gaining a second wife.


2) Leadership & submission requires far more than just theoretical agreement.

Imagine an army sergeant who asks a new recruit "Will you follow me into a firefight?" on the day he enlists, and the recruit says "yes". They then have 18 months of marching in parades, kit inspections, and rifle practice on a controlled range. No exposure to anything like a real firefight. Then they find themselves in a real battle, the sergeant yells "follow me" and runs across a street with bullets flying everywhere. The private panics and runs off in fear. They lose the battle. The sergeant says "it's his fault, he didn't obey me, he promised to when he joined up but he didn't".

Technically, the sergeant is correct. But you can't really blame the poor bloke who ran off. He had no idea what he was getting himself into. The reality was completely different to what he'd seen on the glossy recruitment posters.

This is why the army actually puts people through psychometric testing rather than just asking "will you obey", to select appropriate people to start with, and then trains them in realistic battle situations to ensure they can really handle it when they need to.

Put that into marriage. The wife who says that she agrees in theory but then meets any further mention of it with "an increasingly hostile response" doesn't really agree with it. She's not ready for it. She may never have even seen it. Try taking her into it and she'll most likely run off, and that response is actually completely understandable. The husband can argue till he's blue in the face that she's broken her promise, that she's technically in the wrong etc. But it doesn't change the reality. She was not suitably chosen or prepared for this situation, and it was his job ultimately to both choose and prepare her in the first place.


I write this for the benefit of other readers. I am uncomfortable with the thought that any men might read this thread, read out of it a legalistic "first wife must put up or shut up", actually do that - and end up having the same unsuccessful result that you have had Wesley, and that many other men have had in the past. Too many families have been ruined by such an approach.

 

[Wesley]

First Wesley, let me be very clear that I am not talking about your past, rather the issue at hand, just like Slumberfreeze. However you are illustrating that issue both from your studies of scripture, and your own personal experience. This is very helpful, because we can learn from both, thankyou for being so open in this discussion.

You're right, you're not talking about my situation at all. Here is a sequence of events that you might want to consider though...

• Therapist #1 (two years of therapy)
  1. I wanted to be told that it was all my fault and thus I could change the situation by simply changing my behavior
  2. VA Therapist told me that I was an abuse victim and there was nothing I could do but watch for red flags more carefully when forming relationships. (A very helpless feeling that I didn't like.)
  3. Since she didn't tell me what I wanted to hear I changed therapists.
• Therapist #2 (four years of therapy)
  1. I wanted to be told that it was all my fault and thus I could change the situation by simply changing my behavior
  2. Non-VA Therapist told me that I was an abuse victim and there was nothing I could do but watch for red flags more carefully when forming relationships. (A very helpless feeling that I didn't like.)
  3. Since he didn't tell me what I wanted to hear I changed therapists.
• Therapist #3 (one year of therapy)
  1. I wanted to be told that it was all my fault and thus I could change the situation by simply changing my behavior
  2. Non-VA Therapist told me that I was an abuse victim and there was nothing I could do but watch for red flags more carefully when forming relationships. (A very helpless feeling that I didn't like.)
  3. Since he didn't tell me what I wanted to hear I changed therapists.
• Therapist #4 (six years of therapy)
  1. I wanted to be told that it was all my fault and thus I could change the situation by simply changing my behavior
  2. Non-VA Therapist told me that I was an abuse victim and there was nothing I could do but watch for red flags more carefully when forming relationships. (A very helpless feeling that I still didn't/don't like.)
  3. Since she didn't tell me what I wanted to hear that made four separate therapists telling me the same thing at different times without the chance to compare notes. They finally convinced me.

Bottom line: I would take the word of ONE licensed therapist over an unlicensed opinion. With four separate licensed therapists coming to the same conclusion at different times, without a chance to communicate, an unlicensed opinion doesn't have a chance.

I know where the debate goes from here about the chance that other options besides the ones you've presented actually exist so I'm not going to go there.

I just think we shouldn't rule out other causal options until we have actual evidence that suggests that no other possible option exists.

 

[Wesley]

I write this for the benefit of other readers. I am uncomfortable with the thought that any men might read this thread, read out of it a legalistic "first wife must put up or shut up", actually do that - and end up having the same unsuccessful result that you have had Wesley, and that many other men have had in the past. Too many families have been ruined by such an approach.

Wow! You must have run into some really stupid men if they were actually dumb enough to try doing things the way that you're describing.

I am glad you made it plain that you're not talking about me or I would have to wonder if you were insulting my intelligence by suggesting that I would be as stupid as you describe.