Chat with Pastor Bill (Part 2)

[Doc]

The ongoing saga of the conversation between a former classmate of mine and our discussions regarding marriage and family.

This is part 2 of 3

After a long pause of about 10 minutes, Pastor Bill pings me back on chat:

Bill: Hey doc
Doc: Hey Bill
Bill: Had to drop off for a while
Doc: It’s okay, I just happen to still be on
Bill: I see a lot of problems with polygamy
Doc: Yes. There are problems.
Bill: Why would you endorse something that causes so many problems?
Doc: First, I am not endorsing polygamy. I simply recognize that when God defines marriage, included in that is plural marriage. Second, I endorse Biblical marriage, and yes it causes problems.
Bill: What I mean is that having more than one wife causes problems.
Doc: Bill, I can speak from experience on this issue. Having ONE wife causes problems. Having NO wife also causes problems. Why should plural marriage be any different?
Bill: I just look at all the different times in the Old Testament where a man had more than one wife, and it seems that it caused more problems than monogamy.
Doc: Okay, give me examples of all the monogamous marriages in the Bible that were problem free.
Bill: You got me there.
Doc: I could make the argument that marriage itself, since it causes more problems than being single, should be avoided. So, what do you say? Should we start preaching that marriage is bad?
Bill: No, we can’t do that.
Doc: Why not?
Bill: Because marriage solves more problems than it creates.
Doc: Thank you, Bill. . You just made my argument.
Bill: What?
Doc: Bill, if a monogamous marriage solves more problems than it creates, could it also be said that a PLURAL marriage solves more problems than it creates as well?
Bill: The thing is that I see and hear all these stories of polygamous families and incest and child abuse and welfare. It seems to me that there is nothing good in polygamy.
Doc: Wait a minute, Bill. How did we go from looking at the Bible’s view on this issue to what you see and hear today?
Bill: What’s the difference?
Doc: A big difference! First, these families you see and hear in the mass media are exaggerated for the benefit of the viewing public. The news and entertainment shows KNOW that people want to look in on something perceived as ‘bad’, and they feed into that.
Bill: Are you saying that child abuse and incest are okay?
Doc: No, of course not! But let me finish. My second point is that most of these families that you see on tv are NOT following a BIBLICAL pattern for marriage. That is why they are loaded with so many problems.
Bill: I don’t understand you on this.
Doc: Most of the families you see are in isolated Mormon communities. The reason they have large families is so that in the NEXT LIFE, when they ascend, they can have a larger kingdom to rule. This is a twisting and addition to the Word of God that is a bald-faced lie. There may be OTHER motivations in there, but that is the PRIMARY one. It is about POWER and CONTROL in this life and the next.
Bill: So, there are Christian families that have more than one wife?
Doc: Lots of them. So many it will scare you.
Bill: I think I am already scared. .
Doc: Bill, why do people get married?
Bill: hmmmm. Love. Will of God. Children. Protection. Finances. Sex. Just to name a few.
Doc: The Christian approach to marriage should include all these and more. The only difference in plural marriage is that it is extended further.
Bill: You can’t make that leap.
Doc: Why not? Let me ask you, Bill: do you have more women or more men in your church?
Bill: More women, of course.
Doc: Let’s say a single mom came to you. She has been coming to your church for a while. She is growing in the Lord, and God is blessing her and her family. She loves Jesus. Got the picture?
Bill: Ok.
Doc: Scenario 1) She says she is getting married to a non-believer. He is a nice guy, but does not go to church, does not believe in Jesus, and is actually antagonistic to the things of God. The guy is a deadbeat, can barely keep a job, and drools a lot. He has kids that he doesn’t know from three failed relationships. He says he loves her, and she is really attracted to his ‘bad boy’ image.
Doc: Scenario 2) She says she is getting married to a really great guy that loves the Lord. This guy has a great job, a good size home, has family devotions every night. His kids are awesome, well-behaved, and her kids get along great with them. The guy loves her, and she really loves him. The only hitch is, he already has a wife.
Doc: Here is my question, Bill, and answer me honestly: who should she marry?
Bill: Neither.
Doc: and Bill, that is WHY there are more women than men in the church! They can’t find a DECENT guy who loves the Lord, and when they DO find one, the pastor tells them, “No, it’s wrong.” I appreciate your honest answer, btw.
Bill: It’s just that I think she should wait for the Lord to provide for her.
Doc: I think God already provided for her in Scenario 2, don’t you?
Bill: Maybe God has something better for her.
Doc: Maybe he does. But then again, maybe THIS is the better. If you had to choose, Bill, which one would you recommend to her?
Bill: I can’t recommend either.
Doc: *sigh* so, let me understand this. You would rather that this single mom struggle, fight to raise a family on her own, not have her sexual needs met, than to have a husband that would love and protect her and provide for her in the Lord?
Bill: You can’t put it that way. If she is faithful, God will provide.
Doc: We obviously have differing views on God’s provision!
Bill: Doc, polygamy is wrong.
Doc: Chapter and Verse, please.
Bill: In the garden, God only provided Eve, not more than one.
Doc: In the garden, Adam married ALL THE AVAILABLE WOMEN that God had made!
Bill: Ha ha! That’s good, I like that! Seriously, that is the pattern that God established, and we should follow that pattern.
Doc: Then Bill, you need to buy a piece of ground, plant some corn and maters, resign the church, and sell all your clothes.
Bill: ?
Doc: That’s the pattern
Bill: ?
Doc: In the garden, Bill. Adam and Eve tended a garden all day naked. That’s what we should do, too, don’t you think?

PART THREE COMING SOON

 

[FollowingHim2]

This is great! You are so good at talking about this stuff Doc! I have stuff like this in my head, unfortunately I open my mouth or start typing and waffle comes out! Which is why I have Samuel, who is perfect at this sort of thing .

I'm very interested in part 3, does he start to come around?

 

[CecilW]

Best get part 3 published, Doc, before we all get organized, reach THROUGH our monitors simultaneously, and start throwing kimchi around your office or apartment!

This IS very, very good btw! You let him walk into his own traps over and over.

That "God will provide" one always gets me. Just HOW is He supposed to do so? Make more men outa mud? *sigh*

 

[CecilW]

Just got to thinking ...

Can anyone report ANY marriage, anywhere in the Bible, that is specifically reported as "happily ever after"? Plural OR mono?

It seems that it either reports problems, or is silent and talking about something else. And making an argument AGAINST from silence is pretty iffy.

 

[CecilW]

Taking the "less problems" argument further...

A servant had few problems or challenges. Just do what you are told. Master pays the bills, worries about the income. Supervises other servants.

Yup! Least troubles and challenges if you'll just choose life as a servant.

Obviously, owning a business, having employees, maybe having multiple businesses ... all more trouble. Or challenges over which to triumph. Depending upon your point of view.

It occurs to me that the man who views them as problems is likely to try to withdraw from the field, to avoid problems. However, the man who welcomes challenges, and glories in meeting and over-coming them (mental image: Tarzan rampant, yelling in primitive triumph thru the jungle! ) seeks out MORE! To him, they are to opportunities!

Why would it be any different in the family? The man who looks at the relationship issues as problems is going to shy away. The man who loves them as opportunities to BUILD relationship will naturally welcome MORE!

 

[ChrisM]

Name me one marriage of any sort that has had no problems. Surely, plural marriage may have different problems, but not necessarily more. His ideal world would lack pastors entirely along with the church, as Christ would have never had to come and die. I see that God in the Law gave specific ordinances inside that less than ideal world. He made provision for, regulated, and allowed plural marriage in that time. Now, we see that God has blessed some Christians with more than one wife, and while it is not the typical, average, or normative situation, it is certainly better than the masses of Christian women who are left without godly headship over them in the home. People keep trying to make this a situation of Law, then avoid what the Law actually says

A young man recently chastised me for implying that 2 Samuel 12 shows God taking credit for and offering more wives to David, referring to such in a list of blessings, and he said Nathan must have just been driving the point home from his story. So, God' s prophets just make stuff up for dramatic effect now? This kid would never have said that about Daniel, Malachi, Joel, or other prophets concerning as yet to be fulfilled prophecy, yet because he cannot accept plural marriage as a viable and Biblically acceptable position he resorts to calling God a liar or making a false prophet out of Nathan.

 

[Shadowjak's Dancer]

Taking the "less problems" argument further...

A servant had few problems or challenges. Just do what you are told. Master pays the bills, worries about the income. Supervises other servants.

Yup! Least troubles and challenges if you'll just choose life as a servant.

Obviously, owning a business, having employees, maybe having multiple businesses ... all more trouble. Or challenges over which to triumph. Depending upon your point of view.

It occurs to me that the man who views them as problems is likely to try to withdraw from the field, to avoid problems. However, the man who welcomes challenges, and glories in meeting and over-coming them (mental image: Tarzan rampant, yelling in primitive triumph thru the jungle! ) seeks out MORE! To him, they are to opportunities!

Why would it be any different in the family? The man who looks at the relationship issues as problems is going to shy away. The man who loves them as opportunities to BUILD relationship will naturally welcome MORE!

Well said, Cecil, plus I totally agree with you, Doc, on the selling clothes bit, don't forget to add abstaining from eating meat to the ideal garden of eden argument!