Due to both popular demand and implied threats on my life, I am hurriedly posting part 3 of my chat session with Pastor Bill.
I split up the preceding conversation because I didn’t want to overextend the post. Here is the last part of the current discussion.
Bill: Plural marriage is not a realistic option for today.
Doc: Why not?
Bill: As Christians we are supposed to obey the laws of the land, and polygamy is illegal.
Doc: I would like to address that statement, Bill, but may I ask a question?
Bill: :/ ok
Doc: If plural marriage were legal everywhere, would you endorse it?
Bill: No
Doc: Why not? It would be legal.
Bill: Homosexual marriage is legal as well in places, but I don’t endorse that either.
Doc: Thank you again.
Bill: For what?
Doc: Based on what you just said, it is possible for the state to make unjust or ill conceived laws regarding marriage, or am I misunderstanding you?
Bill: Yes, the government can be wrong.
Doc: Here is a scenario for you again.
Bill: Oh no.
Doc: lol, you haven’t even heard it yet!
Bill: Let’s have it…
Doc: ok, here goes. A young couple, a white woman and a black man come to you and ask you to perform the wedding. They are both believers, they have made commitments to serve the Lord, attend church all the time, and have kept themselves chaste. Do you perform the wedding?
Bill: Sure, as long as they go through counseling with me.
Doc: Ok, counseling it is. But do you perform the wedding?
Bill: Sure, no problem.
Doc: Let me change the scenario: The year is 1950. You pastor a church in south Mississippi. A young couple, a white woman and a black man come to you and ask you to perform the wedding. They are both believers, they have made commitments to serve the Lord, attend church all the time, and have kept themselves chaste. Do you perform the wedding?
Bill: ooh, that’s tough.
Doc: What’s the matter?
Bill: Well, because interracial marriage was not popular then.
Doc: It was also illegal.
Bill: Then I would suggest that they go have their wedding somewhere legal.
Doc: oh? Pass the buck? Lol!
Bill: No, it’s just that it was against the law.
Doc: ok, let’s say they went and got married in Florida. They moved back to Mississippi to attend your church. Are they still married?
Bill: Of course.
Doc: But….I thought it was illegal….?
Doc:
Bill: Wait a minute…
Doc: Gotcha.
Doc: Two men can get legally married in Vermont. If they move to your state, are they married?
Bill: No, we don’t have gay marriage in our state. But I don’t see that as marriage anyway.
Doc: Why not? The state, in this case Vermont, says they are.
Bill: Yes, but the Bible does not allow gay marriage. That is a higher law.
Doc: I agree. In other words, only God can say who is married and who isn’t?
Bill: Yes, I would say that is the case.
Doc: Then why is the state involved?
Bill: The state is there to protect the sanctity of marriage.
Doc: I see. Bill, who created marriage?
Bill: God did.
Doc: Would you agree with me that ONLY God can sanctify any INDIVIDUAL marriage?
Bill: Yes
Doc: Does God need help?
Bill: Help with what?
Doc: Protecting the sanctity of any individual marriage?
Bill: No, only He and the husband and wife can do that.
Doc: I understand. So what you are saying is that any individual marriage is an agreement between God, a husband, and a wife?
Bill: Oh yes, absolutely.
Doc: And so God needs to ask the state’s permission to join husband and wife together?
Bill: No! What God has joined together no man, or state, can tear apart.
Doc: So, if God doesn’t need permission from the state to join a husband and wife together, do the husband or wife need to get permission from the state to be married?
Bill: aaah!
Doc: hee hee! Hey, at least I am being polite lol!
Bill: My brain just curdled.
Doc: Ok, it is getting late here. I need to go here in a little bit. Great chatting with you. Let me ask you one more question. Can you name any Bible patriarch that had more than one wife?
Bill: Abraham. He was married to Sarah and Hagar.
Doc: Actually, Abraham had four wives, but let’s save that for another day.
Doc: Let’s say that Abraham, a godly man who tithes (which is always a good thing) shows up at your church with his two wives Sarah and Hagar. They have two boys, Isaac and Ishmael, both Abe’s sons but from the differing wives. They really like your preaching, and really really like the church and want to be a part of the fellowship. How would you respond?
Bill: I would like to think that I would open our church to them.
Doc: Bill, that’s awesome that you would be willing to do that! You would be a brave pastor, but I know that you care about people. But, no conditions on their involvement, right?
Bill: Well, he probably couldn’t serve in a leadership role. I would also encourage him not to make a big deal about his plural marriage.
Doc: So, this godly man, a servant of the Lord, with a promise from God to make a great nation out of him, who is blessed everywhere he walks, a wealthy man at that, cannot serve in a leadership role? Why not?
Bill: I couldn’t do it.
Doc: So, he can attend, listen to preaching, enjoy the music, just so long as he pays his tithes and keeps his mouth shut? ;D
Bill: He doesn’t qualify for leadership.
Doc: Abraham, the first patriarch, does not qualify for leadership?
Bill: Not according to 1 Timothy 3:2, elders have to have one wife.
Doc: Oh, ok. By the way, is Michael T still serving as your youth and associate pastor?
Bill: Yes, this is his third year. He’s doing a great job.
Doc: Well, I hate to break it to you, Bill….but you need to fire him.
Bill: What!? He’s the best youth pastor I ever had! The kids love him.
Doc: That doesn’t matter. You need to fire him. I need to tell you something about him that will directly impact his qualification to serve. I know it will come as a shock to you, but I love you as a brother in the Lord and a fellow minister. Do you want me to tell you?
Bill: Absolutely! What has he done?
Doc: Bill, I am sorry to tell you this, but Michael T…..is single.
Bill: I thought it was something serious, Doc!
Doc: This is serious. He is violating 1 Tim 3:2! Don’t you believe the Word of God? ? Michael T doesn’t QUALIFY for leadership because he is NOT the husband of one wife. He is single.
Bill: That is not what that verse means.
Doc: Oh really? Please, enlighten me.
Bill: You know as well as I do that passage has to do with the general characteristics of leadership. It is dealing more with issues of character and reputation than specifics.
Doc: Uh, sorry, Bill. You can’t have it both ways.
Bill: What about it?
Doc: You can't on the one hand say that the lists in 1 Tim 3 and also Titus 1 are general requirements, and then switch hit and do specific qualifications. I assume Michael T doesn’t have children either?
Bill: He better not!
Doc: Then that disqualifies him as well, because in 1 Tim 3:4 and Titus 1:6 it says he must have well behaved children.
Bill: Well, he takes care of the youth.
Doc: Nice try, but no. lol. It sounds to me that if we are using a checklist of qualifications, then Abraham is more qualified to be in leadership in your church than Michael T. Right?
Bill: :shock:
Doc: lol. Love you brother. Listen it is 130 in the morning and I have classes first thing. I really have to let you go. Can we chat again?
Bill: Sure, bless you Doc
Doc: Thanks for your patience. Always good to talk to you. Please pray for me
I split up the preceding conversation because I didn’t want to overextend the post. Here is the last part of the current discussion.
Bill: Plural marriage is not a realistic option for today.
Doc: Why not?
Bill: As Christians we are supposed to obey the laws of the land, and polygamy is illegal.
Doc: I would like to address that statement, Bill, but may I ask a question?
Bill: :/ ok
Doc: If plural marriage were legal everywhere, would you endorse it?
Bill: No
Doc: Why not? It would be legal.
Bill: Homosexual marriage is legal as well in places, but I don’t endorse that either.
Doc: Thank you again.
Bill: For what?
Doc: Based on what you just said, it is possible for the state to make unjust or ill conceived laws regarding marriage, or am I misunderstanding you?
Bill: Yes, the government can be wrong.
Doc: Here is a scenario for you again.
Bill: Oh no.
Doc: lol, you haven’t even heard it yet!
Bill: Let’s have it…
Doc: ok, here goes. A young couple, a white woman and a black man come to you and ask you to perform the wedding. They are both believers, they have made commitments to serve the Lord, attend church all the time, and have kept themselves chaste. Do you perform the wedding?
Bill: Sure, as long as they go through counseling with me.
Doc: Ok, counseling it is. But do you perform the wedding?
Bill: Sure, no problem.
Doc: Let me change the scenario: The year is 1950. You pastor a church in south Mississippi. A young couple, a white woman and a black man come to you and ask you to perform the wedding. They are both believers, they have made commitments to serve the Lord, attend church all the time, and have kept themselves chaste. Do you perform the wedding?
Bill: ooh, that’s tough.
Doc: What’s the matter?
Bill: Well, because interracial marriage was not popular then.
Doc: It was also illegal.
Bill: Then I would suggest that they go have their wedding somewhere legal.
Doc: oh? Pass the buck? Lol!
Bill: No, it’s just that it was against the law.
Doc: ok, let’s say they went and got married in Florida. They moved back to Mississippi to attend your church. Are they still married?
Bill: Of course.
Doc: But….I thought it was illegal….?
Doc:
Bill: Wait a minute…
Doc: Gotcha.
Doc: Two men can get legally married in Vermont. If they move to your state, are they married?
Bill: No, we don’t have gay marriage in our state. But I don’t see that as marriage anyway.
Doc: Why not? The state, in this case Vermont, says they are.
Bill: Yes, but the Bible does not allow gay marriage. That is a higher law.
Doc: I agree. In other words, only God can say who is married and who isn’t?
Bill: Yes, I would say that is the case.
Doc: Then why is the state involved?
Bill: The state is there to protect the sanctity of marriage.
Doc: I see. Bill, who created marriage?
Bill: God did.
Doc: Would you agree with me that ONLY God can sanctify any INDIVIDUAL marriage?
Bill: Yes
Doc: Does God need help?
Bill: Help with what?
Doc: Protecting the sanctity of any individual marriage?
Bill: No, only He and the husband and wife can do that.
Doc: I understand. So what you are saying is that any individual marriage is an agreement between God, a husband, and a wife?
Bill: Oh yes, absolutely.
Doc: And so God needs to ask the state’s permission to join husband and wife together?
Bill: No! What God has joined together no man, or state, can tear apart.
Doc: So, if God doesn’t need permission from the state to join a husband and wife together, do the husband or wife need to get permission from the state to be married?
Bill: aaah!
Doc: hee hee! Hey, at least I am being polite lol!
Bill: My brain just curdled.
Doc: Ok, it is getting late here. I need to go here in a little bit. Great chatting with you. Let me ask you one more question. Can you name any Bible patriarch that had more than one wife?
Bill: Abraham. He was married to Sarah and Hagar.
Doc: Actually, Abraham had four wives, but let’s save that for another day.
Doc: Let’s say that Abraham, a godly man who tithes (which is always a good thing) shows up at your church with his two wives Sarah and Hagar. They have two boys, Isaac and Ishmael, both Abe’s sons but from the differing wives. They really like your preaching, and really really like the church and want to be a part of the fellowship. How would you respond?
Bill: I would like to think that I would open our church to them.
Doc: Bill, that’s awesome that you would be willing to do that! You would be a brave pastor, but I know that you care about people. But, no conditions on their involvement, right?
Bill: Well, he probably couldn’t serve in a leadership role. I would also encourage him not to make a big deal about his plural marriage.
Doc: So, this godly man, a servant of the Lord, with a promise from God to make a great nation out of him, who is blessed everywhere he walks, a wealthy man at that, cannot serve in a leadership role? Why not?
Bill: I couldn’t do it.
Doc: So, he can attend, listen to preaching, enjoy the music, just so long as he pays his tithes and keeps his mouth shut? ;D
Bill: He doesn’t qualify for leadership.
Doc: Abraham, the first patriarch, does not qualify for leadership?
Bill: Not according to 1 Timothy 3:2, elders have to have one wife.
Doc: Oh, ok. By the way, is Michael T still serving as your youth and associate pastor?
Bill: Yes, this is his third year. He’s doing a great job.
Doc: Well, I hate to break it to you, Bill….but you need to fire him.
Bill: What!? He’s the best youth pastor I ever had! The kids love him.
Doc: That doesn’t matter. You need to fire him. I need to tell you something about him that will directly impact his qualification to serve. I know it will come as a shock to you, but I love you as a brother in the Lord and a fellow minister. Do you want me to tell you?
Bill: Absolutely! What has he done?
Doc: Bill, I am sorry to tell you this, but Michael T…..is single.
Bill: I thought it was something serious, Doc!
Doc: This is serious. He is violating 1 Tim 3:2! Don’t you believe the Word of God?
? Michael T doesn’t QUALIFY for leadership because he is NOT the husband of one wife. He is single.Bill: That is not what that verse means.
Doc: Oh really? Please, enlighten me.
Bill: You know as well as I do that passage has to do with the general characteristics of leadership. It is dealing more with issues of character and reputation than specifics.
Doc: Uh, sorry, Bill. You can’t have it both ways.
Bill: What about it?
Doc: You can't on the one hand say that the lists in 1 Tim 3 and also Titus 1 are general requirements, and then switch hit and do specific qualifications. I assume Michael T doesn’t have children either?
Bill: He better not!
Doc: Then that disqualifies him as well, because in 1 Tim 3:4 and Titus 1:6 it says he must have well behaved children.
Bill: Well, he takes care of the youth.
Doc: Nice try, but no. lol. It sounds to me that if we are using a checklist of qualifications, then Abraham is more qualified to be in leadership in your church than Michael T. Right?
Bill: :shock:
Doc: lol. Love you brother. Listen it is 130 in the morning and I have classes first thing. I really have to let you go. Can we chat again?
Bill: Sure, bless you Doc
Doc: Thanks for your patience. Always good to talk to you. Please pray for me
