Re: Concubines... just a bit fo mental jousting.
Gonna hop in seriously here for a bit.
NetWatchR said:
Ok. First, I found your comment about being a man or a mouse a little offensive... which means, there’s probably some truth to it. So I need to look into that, because if I was certain, it wouldn’t have bothered me.
Good man. No offense was intended. Iron sharpens iron around here. And a question was asked, not a judgment rendered.
But I am with Samuel in saying that the first step is to get your own thinking and house in order, from the point of view of who is in charge and leading. I can say this, as I am one of those men who lost my first wife and family simply over discussing PM before getting the other stuff straightened out adequately. Still trying to retrieve them.
NetWatchR said:
Regarding the Greek for wife actually meaning woman,
Here's the whole scoop on this one. We have a few names which we use for designating snow by the kind it is ... powder, slush, etc. Greek is the same way when referring to females. It pretty much always is specific about their marital state, and uses just 3 designations, to wit:
** One word for a single woman, never married. State of hymen was not the issue. Translated into English as "virgin".
** One word for a woman in an exclusive covenant relationship with a man (whether 'wife' or 'concubine'). Translated into English as either wife or woman, depending on context, but the same designation.
** One word for a woman no longer married, whether through death or divorce. Translated into English as 'widow'.
The Hebrew is more colorful, adding concubines and divorcees as separate designations.
So, while there is nothing wrong with the existing English translation for men to love our wives, if that translation is being used to justify NOT loving a concubine, then Samuel's translation, equally accurate, would be clearer and preferable.
Men, love the women with whom you are in an exclusive covenant relationship -- no matter WHAT you call them, or their legal status.
NetWatchR said:
In as much as Loving a concubine, I still don’t see that as being necessary. Using my earlier example of Hagar and Ishmael getting the boot in
Genesis 21:8-14, I'd like to note verse 11 specifically , “The matter distressed Abraham greatly because it concerned his son.” Where was the concern for Hagar? Sarah didn’t say just get rid of Ishmael. She said they both needed to go and Abraham is only concerned for his son.
This is a good point. However, since you impute certain emotions (or lack thereof) to Abraham that aren't specifically spelled out in the text, I will feel free to do likewise using an alternative scenario.
Let's start back a few years. Abraham is definitely a MAN. He tells his male servants, of whom there were AT LEAST 613, to line up and let him, well, whack the end off their tallywhackers, and they DO. He understands leadership.
Except when it comes to Sarah. She's his weakness. He turns into a mouse, hangs his widdle head, and says, "Ok, dear."
So Sarah complains about his concubine, Hagar, and instead of saying, "Then get another maid, darling, and I'll set Hagar up in her own tent on the other side of the camp," Abraham says, "Yes dear. She's yours more than mine. I guess you have the right to do what you want with her." Sarah, feeling her power, proceeded to mistreat Hagar.
Do we really think Abraham didn't notice? Or care? Hagar was the woman he'd made a son with! Come on. He just turned mouse when it came to Sarah.
Fast forward 13+ years. Hagar has suffered under Sarah long enough. Abraham, while still feeling helpless, feels bound by his word. Abraham also loves his son Ishmael, who has grown into a strapping handsome young man.
Now along comes Isaac, the son of promise. He's the baby who needs his daddy present, whereas Ishmael is largely grown. Sarah blows her top and provides the opening needed -- "Send Ishmael & Hagar away!"
It is recorded that Abraham once again said, "Yes, dear." And that he sorrowed at the thought of missing Ishmael around the camp all the time. And that he talked it over with his friend, God, who offered to partner with him and take over / complete parenting Ishmael.
Some things are NOT recorded in our Bible.
It is NOT stated that he divorced Hagar. Merely that he sent her and Ishmael to go live elsewhere. Extra biblical sources state that he went twice a year to spend several weeks with her and Ishmael.
And his feelings regarding Hagar at that moment are not recorded. So I will speculate that the loving man side of him which existed despite the mouse nature in relation to Sarah, felt RELIEF! FINALLY! If Hagar & Sarah hadn't been able to work out a good relationship in approximately 14 years, that was long enough! The sorrow over Ishmael was intense, but tempered by relief for Hagar.
Biblical? As Biblical as stating that he felt nothing for her. That she was merely his test tube for the creation of Ishmael. It is also a scenario that I believe fits his character much better.
Yeah, this concept of concubinage does come up from time to time, here on BibFam. But for all practical purposes, it seems that the "wife" or "concubine" status is a woman's issue, and relates to her kids' inheritance and her responsibilities in her husband's home. But from the man's point of view and responsibilities, there's no noticeable difference. Both are wives.
Having said that, I also strongly posit that if we men will make the CHOICE to love a specific woman, God is perfectly willing to turn it into reality and provide the emotions. And really, what reason would there be to want to NOT love someone? If you had children with her, would you truly want your children to grow up observing and learning from a loveless relationship between their parents?
