Could the USA Be The Real, Regathered, Biblical Israel?

Discussion in 'Biblical Issues Other Than Marriage & Family' started by Joleneakamama, Jul 6, 2016.

  1. Joleneakamama

    Joleneakamama Well-Known Member Female

    To be totally honest, I have yet to be even a little bit upset. I grew up listening to my adult relatives discussing doctrine, and have always loved to hear (or read) logical or well thought out beliefs stated, or debated. To someone meek and mild a roudy Italian discussion might seem like a fight. Perspective makes a difference.

    When I was young I never expressed an opinion about anything (I'm sure this is hard to believe for those who know me now ;)) at this point in my life, I very much appreciate that what I believe is deliberate, and I know the reasons (and scripture) that supports it. If I find info that clashes, I can reevaluate easier then if I had no idea what, or where, the conflict actually is.
    I have seen others pose a question to the effect of "What other doctrines have you found besides polygyny, that you have found were wrong, or have had to reconsider." (Not exact paraphrase for sure) For me these doctrines (like replacement theology) and terms (like gentiles) really need to be better understood, as the current common understanding is not from scripture.

    I have had many over the years insist that the church is made up of grafted in gentiles, and they are not Israel. They want to call it replacement theology, but no one claiming replacement theology has ever addressed the scriptures that support Israel being in the church, and explained them. I really don't believe it is possible. I'm sure everyone agrees we should get doctrine from the scripture, but many still use modern definitions for biblical words like Goy, (often translated gentiles) and end up back at square one calling the church gentiles, and Jews Israel. I'll admit that can be frustrating at times, because no real communication happens without a common definition of terms.

    Spiritual Israel is not a biblical concept, or doctrine. You have to redefine the terms, and it causes confusion. The context of Jer. 31:31-34 Does not in any way support a different people then literal descendants of those YHWH led by the hand out of Egypt. I believe this is at least part of why YHWH prophesied that name change for His servants. Did you notice that believers in the New Testament are called the children of Abraham, not Jacob? Because Christ is THE seed, and all who believe on Him are counted as Abraham's seed and are heirs according to the promise.
    But YHWH also said that the descendants of Israel will be a nation before Him forever, and that their descendants would inherit the nations. After 2000 years of intermarriage with the Israelites that followed Christ, huge numbers of people in all nations must be literal descendants of Israel now. YHWH also said in Isaiah that He would gather others to Christ, and he called them strangers.
    The rest of that passage in Jeremiah that talks of all knowing Him, isnt it common Christian expression to talk of when one "met the Lord?" Forgivness of wickedness, and not remembering sins certainly fits the christian experience, so what part of that really must have a future fulfillment?

    I really am not trying to make anyone change. I know that no amount of argument can do that. I only hope that people might study, and look at both sides, as there is definitely another way to understand things, and I believe it does a better job of explaining, and harmonizing the entire scripture, as well as history, current events, and other evidences.

    It took me several years to untangle the Mormon doctrines I was raised with, from what the Bible actually says, and figure out how my knowledge and experience of God related to all those doctrines. YHWH was very patient, and the spirit was always there to witness to the truth. Even so it was not an easy thing to be objective about things so ingrained from childhood, or let go of what was wrong for a better understanding. I sure feel freer now, and believe my view of all denominations is less prejudiced, and more objective. (In other words, I didnt lose anything:) )

    If no one really wishes to discuss this, they sure don't have to. But if someone is willing to, I do very much enjoy it, and often gain a better understanding from the study and interaction. I really have no ill will toward any member here, and appreciate others sharing their beliefs, and being HOT rather then wishy washy.
    I'm sure my hubby would be more tactful then I, but please believe I do not write out of hostility, and do not intend to cause any harm. To use a musical analogy ....discord adds depth to music, and even harmony. Only unresolved discord is really unpleasant, or ugly.

    As far as the profitability of the discussion is concerned, I don't see how any one of us, from our limited mortal perspective, could know the ultimate affect of a discussion thread. We don't know who reads it, only who participates, and even the ultimate effect on myself I wouldn't hazard to guess.

    I was writing while waiting for teens to get home from a night game of frisbee. Now that they are home I had better get some sleep. Big day tomorrow turning chickens into freezer pets.
  2. Mojo

    Mojo Esteemed Member Male

    Are you saying only those with some admixture of Israelite heritage are among the chosen? The "nations" made up of diasporized Israel are the only ones coming to faith?

    Did Ancient Israelites make it into the Amazon, into Australia, the mountains of Cambodia? Missionaries have been successful in reaching native and aboriginal peoples in these areas that seem to have had ZERO contact with anyone from Europe or the Middle East until the missionaries came.

    Sound like a big supposition to think this way. Anything is possible with God, but without any evidence beyond the McGees and McGregors in Scotland/Ireland, I am skeptical.

    It seems like a very Eurocentric position since most of the northern diaspora ended up in Europe/ Eurasia. How many ended up in Ghana? your theory, I have heard of historians hypothesize about some of the Spanish/Italian explorers into the New World. Rumors are that Columbus may have been a Hebrew. Intermarriage in the New World would add credence to your theory, but once much eisegesis and supposition!
    Last edited: Jul 8, 2017
  3. Verifyveritas76

    Verifyveritas76 Moderator Staff Member Male

    Yes, as well as other "Christians". The attacks by Crusaders on other Christian countries simply for spoil and mayhem are documented though anomalies. As I recall, (my resource was loaned to someone and not returned) the Byzantine countries, especially Constantinople was attacked by "Crusaders".
  4. Verifyveritas76

    Verifyveritas76 Moderator Staff Member Male

    @Joleneakamama I can appreciate your zeal for this topic. I have done a bit of study on this topic myself and in some measure find agreement with some of your posts as I have alluded to previously. You and I tend to post in a very matter of fact way, and I often see how our style of writing can be taken as beligerent or antagonistic when that is not the intent or tone that we are trying to convey.

    I think I have to agree with @FollowingHim to question the benefit of this thread to this site. Perhaps there may be a better forum that is geared more toward this discussion.

    With all due respect to the participants of the thread, perhaps it is time to let this debate rest.
    andrew likes this.
  5. Mojo

    Mojo Esteemed Member Male

    I agree that it's pretty much been played out. But I'm left with one lingering question. How does this doctrine effect everyday life? Does it change evangelism? Does it change how you pray? Does it change your family dynamic? Does it change your outlook on the Great Commission? If it doesn't, and you see each soul worthy of a salvation message (God is not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance) then Godspeed to you in this doctrine. If it does change things, then I have serious concerns for any who hold to this doctrine.

    I guess I view this type of doctrine like I view eschatological doctrines. Premillennial? Amillenial? Pretribulational? Posttribulational? In all honesty, I'm panmillennial and will all "pan" out in the end. God knows what he is doing and doesn't need my input or my doctrine. God will reconcile what we see as contradictory or irreconcilable. The houses of Israel, the Gentiles, the nations, his true seed. He knows who belongs to him. I leave it up to Him to gather when, where, and how.

    On the other hand, Plural marriage (the focus of this site) does have practical, everyday implications, that have the potential to change our entire way of life!
    cubanito and andrew like this.
  6. andrew

    andrew Administrator Staff Member Male

    Amen, Mojo! Thanks for the reminder to ground all we do here in practical, rubber-meets-the-road application to our daily lives. This forum has always had room for believers--having found each other here and realizing we have one thing in common but wondering what else we do or don't agree on--to explore other points of doctrine not specifically germane to biblical marriage (your thread on Binitarianism is a pretty good example of how that can go well). But at the end of the day, what matters here is how we can help each other walk out the truth of what the bible teaches about marriage and family.
  7. Mojo

    Mojo Esteemed Member Male

    The answer to "Who is Israel" doesn't change my personal destiny if I get it wrong.

    The answer to "Who is Jesus, and how do you relate to him?" Makes all the difference in the world.
  8. Joleneakamama

    Joleneakamama Well-Known Member Female

    @Mojo had some questions, so here are his questions, and my answers.

    Q. Are you saying only those with some admixture of Israelite heritage are among the chosen? The "nations" made up of diasporized Israel are the only ones coming to faith?

    I never even hinted at such a thing. I actually believe one reason YHWH had for giving a new name to His servant people, Israel, was to AVOID CONFUSION and let all those coming to faith, regardless of national origin, have a common standing as His servants. That said, intermarriage with Israelite descendants, even if they are called Christian instead of Israelite does make the next generation Israelites. Which is why I say, “The Church” is very likely at this point super high percentage Israelite, or even Ephraimite given that the birthright blessing, and promise of multiplied posterity went to that particular son, and intermarriage has been a common occurrence over the past 2000 years.

    Q. How does this doctrine effect everyday life?

    For me it makes the whole Bible come alive because it opens my understanding of current events, and makes the historic accounts my family history, and the many huge and comforting promises made to Israel as a people, my heritage. Another advantage is that since I recognize the Israelite roots of many other nations in the world, I do not feel any need to support the sworn enemies of Christianity that are in control of the repopulation of the modern State of Israel, and currently in control of the United States, and most other countries of the world through the IMF and other financial influences we recognize as “Mystery Babylon the Great.” It is easier to get one’s heart out of Babylon, when you are not supporting her under the false pretext of “supporting God’s chosen people.”

    Q. Does it change evangelism?

    It in no way changes my desire to share the good news, but I feel it does give me an advantage as I have a scriptural view of current events, that has not been mucked up by all the politically correct nonsense.

    Q. Does it change how you pray?

    It does a bit, as does anything effecting one’s perspective might. I pray that the Christian Israelite people will wake up to the knowledge of who they are, and who the enemy is.

    Q. Does it change your family dynamic?

    I’m not sure. We do recognize that we are enjoying the blessings promised to the descendants of Jacob/Israel and we tell our children it is important to realize that they will be cursed for disobedience, a sign and a wonder that was to follow the literal Israelites forever.

    Q. Does it change your outlook on the Great Commission?

    To the degree that it changes my whole perspective on who I am and how I relate to Christ, yes it does. The scriptures tell us in Romans that the adoption, the giving of the law, the service of God, and the promises pertained to Israel. Knowing that these things are a part of my heritage is humbling indeed. It is said that where much is given much is required, and I feel I have been blessed beyond measure, and I only hope to not fall shamefully short in giving back to my maker. So, I give back in every way I can.

    This will be my final post here, unless someone addresses me directly. I wanted to answer Mojo’s questions above, and I will close with my opinion on why so many are blind to this, and refuse to even consider this position. I have tried not to ask any questions, but realize people may feel compelled to answer or object to this post anyway.

    First what I shared about Edom that is contained in the Jewish encyclopedia is history, that does NOT conflict with scripture, but rather confirms and supports it. It explains why Herod hated Christ, and why many called Jews in His time hated Him too, and more importantly were DENOUNCED in no uncertain terms by Jesus. It also explains why He said to judge by fruits and gave that analogy about gathering grapes from thistles…..nothing good comes from a bad plant. He said every good tree is known by it’s fruit. These were not sons that were just rejecting Him, he said to these so called Jews “My word has no place in you because YOU ARE NOT MY SHEEP” Contrast that with what YHWH promised to do in the new covenant to BOTH HOUSES of Israel. “I will write my law on their hearts, and put my spirit in them….I will be their God and they will be my people”

    What Jesus had to say about these Pharisee Jews that hated Him was that they were the blind leading the blind. He also warned His disciples to “Beware of the leaven (doctrine) of the Pharisees.” Why? Because they were BLIND, and being influenced by their doctrine makes others as blind as they are.

    Most Christians realize these were blind, they did not recognize their messiah….BUT if they were NOT ISRAEL, He was NOT their messiah. “I am not sent but to the LOST SHEEP OF THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL” Jesus is called The Holy One OF ISRAEL! Now He in turn did send his followers into all the world, to make disciples of all nations, and we very much believe that who you are in Christ is what matters.

    Most Christians realize that these Jews rejected Christ, but not many want to acknowledge that HE REJECTED THEM TOO! Now think about who would have been left in the synagogues after those who followed Christ converted and left. The modern Jews would be made up of the descendants of those who rejected Christ, and were rejected BY HIM, and others who converted to the blind religion Jesus said made the law of God OF NO EFFECT called Talmudic Judaism. Today not many Christians guard against the leaven of the Pharisees, in fact the modern trend I have witnessed has many almost idolizing them, and becoming so infatuated with their traditions and doctrines that they make trips to “the holy land” and pour money into missionary work there. They also pick up and use “Hebrew” words and phrases, some of which like Shekinah are not Hebrew at all. And it is inevitable that they also end up adopting a Pharisee worldview.

    Preaching the truth of YHWH’s law is a truly great thing to do. But MarkC and Joseph Dumond, and others like them….in expecting the tribes of Israel to someday go back to the land of their nativity, are expecting something that truly cannot happen, and never will. It would be akin to expecting a grown man to put his booties back on and crawl back into his cradle! Or worse, back into his mother’s womb! There are MANY verses in the scripture that tell us Israel would OUTGROW THE LAND, and some that say to Israel that their descendants would inherit the NATIONS! YHWH said that He would SOW ISRAEL in ALL THE EARTH! Another word for sow is PLANT. PLANTING in no way implies that He is going to root them back up again, in fact HE PROMISED HE WOULD GIVE THEM THEIR OWN LAND and that THEY WOULD MOVE NO MORE!

    These men while teaching many truths, and leading many to a better understanding of some things, are themselves blind to some things as well. In letting their worldview be shaped by Pharisee doctrine/leaven they do not see the modern land of Israel, described in Ezekiel, because it is populated by “Christian Gentiles” and the MODERN USE OF THE TERM GENTILE IS NOT BIBLICAL.

    Many Christians have a default understanding of that term “Gentile” that makes them blind to where the real descendants of Jacob/Israel are today. As soon as you finish explaining the real meaning of the word, they revert to their current, non-biblical use and understanding. Even when you show them in the scriptures, it only lasts a moment, and has NO LASTING EFFECT ON THEIR DOCRINE OR WORLDVIEW.

    Mystery Babylon will continue to be a mystery to these blind people.

    It is like someone saying that they affirm and support biblical marriage, but then every time they see a man with more than one wife they say it’s wrong. They agree when confronted with the clear facts, but do not let that knowledge in any way change their practical understanding and beliefs.

    YHWH said when Jacob and Esau were not yet born that there were two Goy/gentiles/NATIONS in her womb, and that two manners of people would come from these boys. He says that the descendants of Jacob/Israel will be a nation before Him forever. He considers them a nation wherever they are, and even if they are unaware of where they came from. Shouldn’t we recognize those that He says are His people?

    I have already made every point many times. From YHWH making clear the CONDITIONAL NATURE of their possession of the land, and the Judgment Jesus spoke confirming their sentence, to the promises of a new name and a new land, the new covenant and who it was to be made with, some of the many verses in the New Testament that identify the Gentiles Paul and the others ministered to as Israelite descendants of the ten tribes, and the modern land that does fit the Biblical description TO A TEE. For anyone interested, an overview of many relevant points was shared back on page 3, where I posted a link to an article I read by Chuck Misler, and my response.

    I still welcome scriptural proofs and arguments, and suggest given the lack of interest in this thread, and the moderators wish to discontinue this discussion, that people send them in private messages.

    To be clear I affirm every believer in Jesus Christ, regardless of race, color or nationality, is a servant of YHWH and Christian of equal standing. I do not judge by color, race, or title. I believe many called Jews may be Israelite, but also that many called Jews are not, as per Revelation and the verses there that mention Jews that are not Jews.

    My sincere hope is that others might consider these things objectively. If you have no scriptural arguments against them, but still object, what are your reasons, and what foundation are you standing on?
  9. Mojo

    Mojo Esteemed Member Male

    Thank you Jolene. I appreciate you taking the time to reiterate and clarify your position.

    As I've said in the past, you and I agree on a lot and I love most of your posts. We just disagree here.

    I'm not aware of the desire to shut this thread down, but if it is to be locked, perhaps it's because it has gotten a bit contentious. If any post distracts from the main purpose of this site, and folks can't come to a resolution about it, I'm sure the moderators see it as unproductive.

    We have to remember that we post on here by the good will and courtesy of the sponsors.

    Blessings to you Jolene.
    andrew and Joleneakamama like this.
  10. IshChayil

    IshChayil Esteemed Member Male

    In Judaism the "Khazar" Jews are understood to be the Georgian Jews.
    One point of evidence is that among Jews scattered everywhere, only the Georgians do not have "Kohanim" (i.e. Jewish Priests) which makes sense since torah doesn't' allow Coheins to marry converts or children of converts of grandchildren of converts. I don't think any respectable scholars claim that mainstream Jews are "Khazars".
    It's such an ugly hypothesis so start with, and it causes more problems than it solves. The Georgian Jew tradition plausibly answers this. I always wonder about the motive to unseat modern Jewry. It robs G-d of glory. In this generation Israel has been restored as a nation and Hebrew is a revived language.
    No stretching needed. G-d did it. We're back in the land speaking the holy tongue and we ain't "khazars" we're Judah & Levi.
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  11. Joleneakamama

    Joleneakamama Well-Known Member Female

    I guess you don't respect Jewish authors like Benjamin Freedman, and Arthur Koestler? They both wrote books detailing the historical evidence supporting the Khazar origin of the modern Jews. (Those books can be found online and read for free!)

    This actually makes perfect sense, as according to YHWH both houses of Israel were going to be in the new covenant, and the majority of modern Jews have not accepted Christ.
    The truth does nothing to rob God of glory. On the contrary, the truth reveals His faithfulness to those who really are His covenant people. But they are going by that prophesied new name now.
    Then too Revelation talks about people who call themselves Jews and are not. Where else are these people today? I have a hard time seeing them as the christians, as I meet very few that will even consider the possibility that they have Israelites in their family tree.
    Who back at the time of Christ called themselves Jews and were not? Jesus told some to their face they were NOT his sheep. Ancient Pharisees.....and Talmudic Judaism is by their own admission, the very "traditions of the elders" that Jesus condemned back then.
    Last edited: Nov 12, 2017
  12. ZecAustin

    ZecAustin Esteemed Member Male

    That doesn't change the fact that they are the descendants of Judah. If Christ was disparaging Jews who weren't ethnic Jews He would be a racist and heavily implying that only the descendants of Jacob could experience salvation. Jolene you don't think through the implications of anything you say. You simply have a nonnegotiable need to disinherit modern Jews and you will twist all of scripture and pay any price theologically to accomplish that. It's tiresome and sad. For your theories to be even remotely true then large swaths of scripture would have to be false and then the very support for your theories becomes invalid, you would be quoting scriptures from a discredited Bible .
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  13. IshChayil

    IshChayil Esteemed Member Male

    appeal to authority-doesn't matter if they are Jews or not; that doesn't make them right.
    Last edited: Nov 13, 2017
    Mojo likes this.
  14. Joleneakamama

    Joleneakamama Well-Known Member Female

    I don't see it as Christ saying they could not experience salvation, but he taught a parable about the rich man and Lazarus, and the final words were that "If they will not hear Moses and the prophets, they will not be persuaded, even if one rose from the dead." This of course was prophetic, and was proven true. They instead paid the soldiers, and instructed them to say that the body had been stolen. No repentance, no acceptance of Jesus. How do you explain Jesus telling them "My word has no place in you, because you are not my sheep"? I pointed out the history recorded in the Jewish Encyclopedia, detailing how Edomites had mixed and even held the ruling positions in Judea. You so far refuses to discuss scripture, or history, or give any reasonable response. Your objections are full of accusations, and even personal attacks, but are vague like the one above.

    What large swaths of scripture have I failed to consider? And to be perfectly clear yet again, the only Jews who's identity I question, are those who are NOT MESSIANIC.

    Here is @IshChayil from the end times post
    "**** I'm answering this 1 comment you made above ****
    There are several places in the the bible where we are told that Israelis who do not keep a certain commandment will be "yiqaret" (cut off) from his people. It's being disinherited.
    So if someone has say a geat-grandparent who was a Jew, and that great-grandparent intermarried, the only way to not be "cut off" from Israel is if they and all the descendants kept those commands which result in being disinherited.
    Now sure, that person would still be a physical "descendant" of Abraham but so are the Ishmaelites and the Ishmaelites are not children of the promise.
    So we see then that the "Jew gene" is not "dominant" in that a person can not be 1/1000th Israelite and 999/1000th Gentile and tadah! It's Israel! I think G-d designed the whole "cut off" commands this way so that there would not be Gentile Christians claiming the physical land of Israel is theirs. Imagine that? If we had to fight the Arabs and the Gentile Christians for the land today?
    The only danger are those who try to make hundreds of millions of Israelis and then scoff at actual Israel as somehow being "not Israel". Well that's just a trick of the devil we've seen many times by many other names in the past. When it's not enough to reach for Jewish identity for oneself, but the actual Jews to whom G-d has restored the land in this generation, must somehow be de-legitimized, that's when motives need to be checked as well as the source of those motives...

    So if you want to claim that most Christians, or most Americans must have some drop of Jewish blood somewhere, before you seek theological ramifications to that, consider the "cut-off" commands and that Moses was serious as a heart attack when he scratched those down. Be careful also not to try to disinherit those who are not "cut off". I've seen it too often..."

    I don't think Ish realizes that he just converted an Israelite (Descendant of Jacob/Israel /Jew) to being equal to an Ishmaelite, and not children of the promise, because of intermarriage. Think about it. Were there ever different 'classes' of Israelites? Maybe, if you consider that there were some restrictions on who could hold public office (enter the congregation of the Lord) but they were allowed in after so many generations, and they were still part of Israel, counted as Israelites, and enjoyed the blessings of being counted as YHWH's people. How does this idea work with the scripture that states that Israel's descendants would inherit the NATIONS? Or the Words of Yeshua when he told his taught ones, "You will not have gone over all the cities of Israel, before the son of man be come."

    You really do damage to the scriptures when you try and pare away literal Israelites, to try and fit them back into that old land, rather then read what YHWH said He would do, and look for the fulfillment.

    The scriptures are plain, both the prophecies, and even Paul here in Romans where he writes about how the children of Ishmael and Esau are not the children of promise.
    6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:

    7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.

    8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

    9 For this is the word of promise, At this time will I come, and Sarah shall have a son.

    10 And not only this; but when Rebecca also had conceived by one, even by our father Isaac;

    11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;)

    12 It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.

    13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.

    14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.

    We are not to judge YHWH's Sovereignty or choices. It isn't racism Zec, it is YHWH who knows the end from the beginning. And He said these twins would father two nations, and two manners of people. This is why we must Judge by fruits.
    Since I'm sure we agree that Messianic Jews are part of the body of Christ, I don't see why you get so upset about me questioning the validity of Jews who are antichrist, especially since Romans 2:28-29 reads "He is not a Jew who is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision , which is outward in the flesh: but he is a Jew that is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whos praise is not of men, but of God.
  15. ZecAustin

    ZecAustin Esteemed Member Male

    You said it yourself, you went looking for a fulfillment. Actually you knew what fulfillment you wanted to find and you shoehorned some scriptures to fit it.

    What you have denied in the past and I will oppose you on at every turn so that the work that is being done here will not get conflated with what you spew, is that the modern Jews aren't descendants of Jacob from the tribe of Judah. You have made this claim. It is false. That is all. Everything else is obfuscation.
  16. Joleneakamama

    Joleneakamama Well-Known Member Female

    Shoehorned what Scriptures? More vague accusations with nothing specific.
    Zec, I have always given reasons, and scripture in support of every claim. You deny what you choose, but never deal with the reasons and scriptures that have been brought out.
    Not liking the truth of polygyny has never changed it for a wife who wanted it to be different, and unless you can address the scriptures and the few below are hardly all of them, never mind the history, that adds substantial validity to my/our position, you are no different then an irrational emotional woman, who doesn't want to see. If you cannot respond with an argument of substance, the sum of your objection is "I don't like it," and that is a poor substitute for what YHWH offers and suggests with His, "Come and let us reason together."

    You have yet to deal with the several scriptures that should cause one to question the claim of a non messianic Jew to be a literal descendant of Jacob.
    Revelation tells us that some calling themselves Jews are the synagogue of satan, and calls their claim blaspheme.
    YHWH said He purposed to make the new covenant with both houses of literal Israel. Jer 31:31 The new covenant describes a born again christian, and the scriptures also record that Followers of Christ, regardless of national origin have been called Christians since Antioch. Do you know of any other NEW NAME that the servants of YHWH have been called, or is this likely the one He prophesied in Isaiah 62:2?
    Jesus said that His sheep hear His voice and follow Him, and told some to their face they were not His sheep. Given YHWH's revealed intent to make the new covenant with BOTH HOUSES of literal Israel, which group's identity should be logically questioned, those in the new covenant, or rejecting it as well as Christ who is the mediator of that covenant?

    Even the claims of those who believe the modern Jews are Israel only account for remnants of some tribes. But the scriptures told us that both houses were to be reunited, and that prophesy was fulfilled when Jews, and gentile descendants of the ten tribes both reunited under Christ. Prophesied in Hosea 1:10 Paul wrote about that wall of partition being broken down, and since Israel had always accepted strangers who chose to join themselves to YHWH, it is clear he was writing about the division caused by YHWH divorcing the ten tribes, and sending them into exile.
    So where is the unity between houses in your view? And what scriptural reason do you have for affirming antichrist Jews claims to be Israelites?

    The other problem I have long seen with this view is it has YHWH breaking His promise to Abraham, to be a God to him, and his seed after him, IN THEIR GENERATIONS. Your view has 2000 years worth of Israelite descendants dying unredeemed, and outside of the new covenant. One of the things Christ came for, was to confirm the promises made to the fathers, and the promise of reuniting the two houses was certainly one of them.
    Do you believe that NONE of the tribe of Judah followed Christ? What of Benjamin, we know Paul was from that tribe, do you believe he was the only Benjamite that converted? Do you believe 'blindness in part' was blindness in total? If not then those tribes of the house of Judah are represented in 'the church,' and all this looking for lost tribes is a fools errand. The only thing that mattered to those who followed the redeemer of Israel, was Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free. He made of twain one new man.

    Micah has one verse indicating there could possibly be Israelites that were left out, and remained in Judaism. Perhaps they curses themselves sufficiently when they shouted "Let His blood be upon us, and upon our children" because Micah chapter five reads, ....they shall smite the judge of Israel with a rod upon the cheek. But thou Bethlehem Ephrata, though thou be small among the thousands of Judah, yet out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be ruler in Israel; who's goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting. Therefore will he give them up, until the time that she which travaileth hath brought forth: then the remnant of his brethren shall return to the children of Israel. (Notice that the children of Israel are not the remnant...the bulk of them are laboring to bring forth....the kingdom)
    Finally, even if there are some Israelites among the antichrist adherents of Judaism, what in all of scripture and history would make supporting them now in their rejection of, and blaspheme of God and His son a good idea? Jesus said "He that is not against us is on our side." If they are Israelites they should be under the curses of Duet 28 which were to be a sign and a wonder on that people forever. Ever read those curses? Fits perfectly what we here in America, and the other christian nations of the world are experiencing.
    Once again, we were told to judge by fruit, not titles. Have you ever read about the attack on the USS Liberty, an American communications ship that was attacked by the Israelis on a clear day, with our flag flying? Or how our own government turned back the help they sent when they heard where the attack was coming from? Or about the cover up that happened after? There are documentaries online, with testimony of people who were there.
    Verifyveritas76 likes this.
  17. cubanito

    cubanito Well-Known Member

    Also, we have to keep in mind there are two versions of Israel or a Jew. A spiritual born again one (light we should be in Christ) and a phisical Christ rejecting, death, militant one. Circumcision of the heart vs circumcision of the flesh and sacred chosen flesh / Master race.
    Huge concepts that determine our spiritual side.
    Yes, we are part of the beast Babylon entity. A modern version with meaner toys. How can our empire not be. The little horn is part of the control entity for now. All these things have layers.
    Eventually leaving this place is not easy since the stage is world wide. But, would be wise to have friends in other places too, even if just for fellowship.
  18. cubanito

    cubanito Well-Known Member

    Most of us have some phisical Israel genetics, but flesh is not saved nor is there is a master chosen race. Speaking of that, why is the Talmud so biased against gentiles? The masters feel we must be their slave cattle stock, why do they feel superior, we can be raped and murdered with no consequences? Something is very very wrong, wrong father in heaven.
    Lots of things at work here. Most is in the spiritual realm. To our creator, the spiritual is what matters, flesh is temporary. Some crazy creepy stuff
  19. cubanito

    cubanito Well-Known Member

    Yes, what many call the church is born again Israel or the reminant. Not all that calls itself Israel is of Israel. You should know them by their fruits. The militant Christ hating guys are something else. Same spirit that had Christ accused and murdered is still out there. The mainstream church is contaminated with it also. Some will eventually see, most won't. It's always this way. These families here bear testimony of a bigger truth. This is why they are so despised by mainstream religion and society. This is a huge subject. Our place exports ideals to destroy family all over the planet, porn, dishonest fractional money. Things to make the world more enslavable, fragmented people are easy to control and enslavable. Our controllers want us dumb, ignorant dependent slaves, cattle like. Is that greatness? Israel of God is not like that. Is supposed to be light not dark.