Now to try and answer some of the other members comments. I started a response weeks ago, but it has been uncommonly busy, and I have many projects I'm trying to keep up with.
To begin with let me state for the record that we are not interested in attempting to convince anyone that we are right, and they are wrong. After all, "A man convinced against his will, is of the same opinion still."
We are also not interested in trying to teach (especially speaking for myself here, as I am a woman) people who only ask more questions, without dealing with the questions we have already put forth for discussion.
In the down time between our last post and this one, I have read and pondered this topic, and contemplated a response.
I have also had an interesting and relevant conversation with a neighbor. I'll share the details a bit later in this post.
We started with the old testament because we believe it is the foundation of christianity, shows us the real nature of God, and outlines our duties to Him, and each other, as believers. We also believe there was a major shift in perception between the time of the old testament, and the new, and we doubt that the change was from YHWH Himself.
If YHWH as He revealed Himself to Moses does not resemble the God most Christians would describe, which account or perception should we believe?
These are issues I had to work through years ago, as I dealt with the differences in doctrine between the LDS church I was raised in, and the plain teachings of the bible. It was the spirit of "Come, let us reason together" that led me (or rather us
) to the understanding we now share.
I have asked my Mormon family members to explain how this war in heaven, that they believe happened in the pre-existence (which is itself an oxymoron) could be the one described in revelation, since revelation plainly states that John was to write the vision, because the events depicted in it must shortly come to pass? One uncle had an answer, but I still think it lacked a biblical foundation. They believe that Satan and Jesus were brothers, which is pretty close to what the paper on demonology I found online puts forth about the origin of demons. (It echos the spirits of dead nephilim belief, and a fallen angel origin for satan, I will try and post more about that later)
Now there are other men who have asked questions, and done loads of research both in the bible, and studying the origins of various doctrines relating to evil, so we really don't want to try and cover such a huge subject comprehensively, and we really don't want to just argue about doctrine.
A question on deciding which extra biblical books one should consider as scripture comes to mind, and I asked all my Mormon relatives the same question (because they have other "scriptures" too). We have not yet reached the end of the prophecies found in Ezekiel, Daniel, Obadiah, and other biblical prophets, why do we need another book, especially since the beautiful continuity found in the bible is rarely continued or even found in the other volumes they call scripture? Mormons read into the bible their ideas about God, and Christians can do the same. It is only when you really dig in and let the way a word is used in the bible define it, that you actually understand what it means.
It was understanding the faults and unbiblical nature of Mormon doctrine, that opened our eyes to what we see now in other denominations doctrines.
Ecclesiastes states that "Fearing YHWH and keeping His commands is the whole duty of man." Is this to be believed, or do we also have a moral obligation to fight against hordes of demons sent by satan?
Maybe I should share that my Mormon family believed in evil spirits, and that when I was a child we would go to my grandparents so my aunt who was spiritually sensitive could help us in casting them out? Or maybe I should share how I experienced deliverance only ten years ago? Or maybe it would be better to stick with something less subjective then my experiences, since my experiences are no authority to get doctrine from, and the bible, especially the old testament is!!
One article I read is this one, talking about extreme beliefs, and it makes some excellent points. Please read it (if or when time allows) and then contemplate what real benefit there is to believing that the almighty creator has an evil opponent out there, that by most accounts is dragging more poor souls to destruction then are finding the straight and narrow?
To slumberfreeze. Did you notice who put forth the doctrine that there even is a "Prince of the devils?'" Beelzebub was the name of the Babylonian's dung God. Given that Jesus warned against the doctrines of the Pharisees and Saducees what reason would a believer have for giving their teachings credibility?
Now I said I would tell you more about the conversation with the neighbor. He shared with me how when he was a younger man he had vivid dreams, that would come true. He talked to the pastor at the church he was attending, seeking help understanding these experiences. After talking with the pastor, the pastor concluded that he (our neighbor) was a devil worshipper, and refused him baptism, or other help!
Now on demonology. I looked at a paper online teaching about demons, and the importance of "knowing the enemy" so to speak. It claimed that there are three forces at work in the world today, God power, man power, and demon power, and we MUST understand all three. There was then a list of "facts" about Satan aka lucifer (but they use all terms relating to evil interchangably!) Some of the verses they are using to establish their satan facts are actually discussing mortal men, like the kings of babylon and tyre.
Since there is no record anywhere in the scripture of satan going against the will of God, it is far more likely that he is just a tool (as J_wickey stated) that YHWH uses for His purposes. Think about it for a second, without the biases you were raised with. Did YHWH promise death and curses for transgression of His law? YES HE DID! All sin is by definition transgression of His law. Notice what the paper on Demonology says about demons...their names for example? Every demon's name is just a reflection of a heart that needs adjusting! Isn't it possible that demons are just part of the curses that YHWH promised for us not keeping His law, and that staying on the right side of the line (Fear YHWH and keep His commandments) would eliminate any and all issues with them?
I have read material from many places, including a church that ministers deliverance. One of their booklets was titled "Deliverance, a walk not an event" and another was "Holding your deliverance" why? Because if your heart and actions are not in keeping with YHWH's law and righteousness, you are constantly "earning" their presence in your life.
Evil is still very evil, but Jesus said it's origin is the hearts of men. Hearts that do not have His law written on them. When you have a desire to do right, people murdering others for their own personal gain, is beyond comprehension.....but that is what evil men do.....daily. Once you wrap your head around YHWH being in complete control of evil too, you see that the american president, and other world players are, like pharaoh of old, just doing YHWH's will. It would be a waste of effort to fight against what is happening, He is moving things right along toward that battle of gog and magog, and somewhere along the timeline babylon goes down, for good and forever! (jump for joy and shout hallelujahs!!!)
The scripture also has names of false gods, their names being there does not make them real, but real or not they do have a destructive influence on people who choose to believe in them. What matters in understanding the scripture is what was believed by the people of that time, and also what the author of those words meant by what he wrote. That is what everyone else after them works at discerning. If the people of Timothy's time believed that demons were the spirits of dead men, and that some were good and helped man, while others were evil and worked to hurt man, and these concepts are NOT biblical, then Timothy might have been trying to communicate that belief in that concept of demons was without a scriptural foundation......and that people of our time (in that latter day apostasy) were going to believe in them. Check those scripture references given in a demonology curriculum like this one for context and accuracy. Do the verses actually say what they claim? Then ask yourself what satan does that man cannot do just as well without him? Man's heart and will is evil enough alone!
Even this reply was written with many interruptions. I hope it is not too hard to follow.
To begin with let me state for the record that we are not interested in attempting to convince anyone that we are right, and they are wrong. After all, "A man convinced against his will, is of the same opinion still."
We are also not interested in trying to teach (especially speaking for myself here, as I am a woman) people who only ask more questions, without dealing with the questions we have already put forth for discussion.
In the down time between our last post and this one, I have read and pondered this topic, and contemplated a response.
I have also had an interesting and relevant conversation with a neighbor. I'll share the details a bit later in this post.
We started with the old testament because we believe it is the foundation of christianity, shows us the real nature of God, and outlines our duties to Him, and each other, as believers. We also believe there was a major shift in perception between the time of the old testament, and the new, and we doubt that the change was from YHWH Himself.
If YHWH as He revealed Himself to Moses does not resemble the God most Christians would describe, which account or perception should we believe?
These are issues I had to work through years ago, as I dealt with the differences in doctrine between the LDS church I was raised in, and the plain teachings of the bible. It was the spirit of "Come, let us reason together" that led me (or rather us
) to the understanding we now share.I have asked my Mormon family members to explain how this war in heaven, that they believe happened in the pre-existence (which is itself an oxymoron) could be the one described in revelation, since revelation plainly states that John was to write the vision, because the events depicted in it must shortly come to pass? One uncle had an answer, but I still think it lacked a biblical foundation. They believe that Satan and Jesus were brothers, which is pretty close to what the paper on demonology I found online puts forth about the origin of demons. (It echos the spirits of dead nephilim belief, and a fallen angel origin for satan, I will try and post more about that later)
Now there are other men who have asked questions, and done loads of research both in the bible, and studying the origins of various doctrines relating to evil, so we really don't want to try and cover such a huge subject comprehensively, and we really don't want to just argue about doctrine.
A question on deciding which extra biblical books one should consider as scripture comes to mind, and I asked all my Mormon relatives the same question (because they have other "scriptures" too). We have not yet reached the end of the prophecies found in Ezekiel, Daniel, Obadiah, and other biblical prophets, why do we need another book, especially since the beautiful continuity found in the bible is rarely continued or even found in the other volumes they call scripture? Mormons read into the bible their ideas about God, and Christians can do the same. It is only when you really dig in and let the way a word is used in the bible define it, that you actually understand what it means.
It was understanding the faults and unbiblical nature of Mormon doctrine, that opened our eyes to what we see now in other denominations doctrines.
Ecclesiastes states that "Fearing YHWH and keeping His commands is the whole duty of man." Is this to be believed, or do we also have a moral obligation to fight against hordes of demons sent by satan?
Maybe I should share that my Mormon family believed in evil spirits, and that when I was a child we would go to my grandparents so my aunt who was spiritually sensitive could help us in casting them out? Or maybe I should share how I experienced deliverance only ten years ago? Or maybe it would be better to stick with something less subjective then my experiences, since my experiences are no authority to get doctrine from, and the bible, especially the old testament is!!
One article I read is this one, talking about extreme beliefs, and it makes some excellent points. Please read it (if or when time allows) and then contemplate what real benefit there is to believing that the almighty creator has an evil opponent out there, that by most accounts is dragging more poor souls to destruction then are finding the straight and narrow?
To slumberfreeze. Did you notice who put forth the doctrine that there even is a "Prince of the devils?'" Beelzebub was the name of the Babylonian's dung God. Given that Jesus warned against the doctrines of the Pharisees and Saducees what reason would a believer have for giving their teachings credibility?
Now I said I would tell you more about the conversation with the neighbor. He shared with me how when he was a younger man he had vivid dreams, that would come true. He talked to the pastor at the church he was attending, seeking help understanding these experiences. After talking with the pastor, the pastor concluded that he (our neighbor) was a devil worshipper, and refused him baptism, or other help!
The curses promised in Deut certainly sound more deliberate, and active then simply withdrawing His presence, and J_wickey already pointed out the verses in Isaiah where YHWH says he creates evil. Certainly there could be something lost in translation, but it does not in any way appear to be in conflict with the rest of the scripture, to give YHWH credit for creating evil. Job did.
Now on demonology. I looked at a paper online teaching about demons, and the importance of "knowing the enemy" so to speak. It claimed that there are three forces at work in the world today, God power, man power, and demon power, and we MUST understand all three. There was then a list of "facts" about Satan aka lucifer (but they use all terms relating to evil interchangably!) Some of the verses they are using to establish their satan facts are actually discussing mortal men, like the kings of babylon and tyre.
Since there is no record anywhere in the scripture of satan going against the will of God, it is far more likely that he is just a tool (as J_wickey stated) that YHWH uses for His purposes. Think about it for a second, without the biases you were raised with. Did YHWH promise death and curses for transgression of His law? YES HE DID! All sin is by definition transgression of His law. Notice what the paper on Demonology says about demons...their names for example? Every demon's name is just a reflection of a heart that needs adjusting! Isn't it possible that demons are just part of the curses that YHWH promised for us not keeping His law, and that staying on the right side of the line (Fear YHWH and keep His commandments) would eliminate any and all issues with them?
I have read material from many places, including a church that ministers deliverance. One of their booklets was titled "Deliverance, a walk not an event" and another was "Holding your deliverance" why? Because if your heart and actions are not in keeping with YHWH's law and righteousness, you are constantly "earning" their presence in your life.
Evil is still very evil, but Jesus said it's origin is the hearts of men. Hearts that do not have His law written on them. When you have a desire to do right, people murdering others for their own personal gain, is beyond comprehension.....but that is what evil men do.....daily. Once you wrap your head around YHWH being in complete control of evil too, you see that the american president, and other world players are, like pharaoh of old, just doing YHWH's will. It would be a waste of effort to fight against what is happening, He is moving things right along toward that battle of gog and magog, and somewhere along the timeline babylon goes down, for good and forever! (jump for joy and shout hallelujahs!!!)
The scripture also has names of false gods, their names being there does not make them real, but real or not they do have a destructive influence on people who choose to believe in them. What matters in understanding the scripture is what was believed by the people of that time, and also what the author of those words meant by what he wrote. That is what everyone else after them works at discerning. If the people of Timothy's time believed that demons were the spirits of dead men, and that some were good and helped man, while others were evil and worked to hurt man, and these concepts are NOT biblical, then Timothy might have been trying to communicate that belief in that concept of demons was without a scriptural foundation......and that people of our time (in that latter day apostasy) were going to believe in them. Check those scripture references given in a demonology curriculum like this one for context and accuracy. Do the verses actually say what they claim? Then ask yourself what satan does that man cannot do just as well without him? Man's heart and will is evil enough alone!
Even this reply was written with many interruptions. I hope it is not too hard to follow.
