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Hand Washing

Walt

New Member
In Mark 7, the chapter starts off with a discussion between Messiah and the scribes and pharisees regarding washing of hands, and something being defiled. I have a different outlook on the account than I used to, and I feel it might resonate with others.

I have seen verse 15 of this chapter referenced in many different posts, and I would like to share a divergent opinion.

In the Torah, washing of hands is commanded for Aaron and his sons as they go into the Temple to perform their duties. (Ex 30:19-21 and Ex 40:31). In Lev 15:11 it talks about how a person who has a discharge (running sore) must first rinse his hands before touching another, or the touched one becomes unclean. And in Dt 21:6 the elders of the city wash their hands as a symbol of guiltlessness over a heifer whose neck was broken because of finding a murdered man with no suspect. These are all the references I found regarding hand washing. There may be more....

So that is the background from the law, or Torah, regarding washing of hands. Nowhere is it associated with a ritual before eating.

Now here are the assumptions that I make regarding the narrative in Mark 7, so you know where my paradigm lies. First, I believe that Messiah was sinless. If that is true, then He kept the commandments perfectly, at least all that pertained to Him. Second, I believe that the only scriptures that He had to live by predate the books of Matthew through Revelation. There was no dispute in His day what Elohim had declared to be food; Leviticus 11 described what was food and what was not. Elohim had declared one tree and its fruit not to be touched and eaten earlier, hadn't He? Eating that which was forbidden as food did not make one unclean, it made the partaker to be in rebellion to the command of the Father. Third, and this is important, I believe that Messiah taught His disciples to be obedient to the Words of the Father, to His Commands. I cannot believe that He would live in obedience and teach His followers to be rebellious to His Father.

So let us look at Mark 7. What was the controversy? Eating meat?

2 And seeing some of His taught ones eat bread with defiled, that is, with unwashed hands, they found fault. 3 For the Pharisees, and all the Yehuḏim, do not eat unless they wash their hands thoroughly, holding fast the tradition of the elders,

The disciples were eating bread with unwashed hands. The 'tradition of the elders' says that you have to wash your hands before you eat. This is the point of contention. Torah, or the law, does not state that you have to wash your hands before you eat.

Verse five repeats the issue, so as to prevent confusion.

“Why do Your taught ones not walk according to the tradition of the elders, but eat bread with unwashed hands?”

Then comes the crux of the issue.

6 And He answering, said to them, “Well did Yeshayahu prophesy concerning you hypocrites, as it has been written, ‘This people respect Me with their lips, but their heart is far from Me. 7 And in vain do they worship Me, teaching as teachings the commands of men.’1 8 “Forsaking the command of Elohim, you hold fast the tradition of men.”

What does 'forsaking the command of Elohim' mean? It means disobedience to the written words of the Father. In this case, the scribes and pharisees were more interested in following peer pressure than what they knew was written in the scrolls. I know what it is to do that, first hand. Anyhow, I believe that Messiah defends the 'law' as being truth and being required to obey, as opposed to the traditions of men.

Now, in the context of eating BREAD with unwashed hands, and the hands being dirty, Messiah states this:

“Hear Me, everyone, and understand: 15 “There is no matter that enters a man from outside which is able to defile him, but it is what comes out of him that defiles the man. 16 “If anyone has ears to hear, let him hear!”
17 And when He went from the crowd into a house, His taught ones asked Him concerning the parable.


I interpret it as such: you may have some dirt on your hands because you didn't wash them before you ate the slice of bread and you may eat some dirt inadvertently. No worries, you'll just poop the dirt out.
It won't make you dirty, or unclean.

Now, remember this, Messiah had just scolded the pharisees for not obeying the law, or Torah.

Do you think that it would be hypocrisy for Messiah to then tell His disciples it was ok for them to disobey the words of Elohim if He had just scolded the Pharisees for disobeying them?

18 And He said to them, “Are you also without understanding? Do you not perceive that whatever enters a man from outside is unable to defile him, 19 because it does not enter his heart but his stomach, and is eliminated, thus purging all the foods?” 20 And He said, “What comes out of a man, that defiles a man. 21 “For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed evil reasonings, adulteries, whorings, murders, 22 thefts, greedy desires, wickednesses, deceit, indecency, an evil eye, blasphemy, pride, foolishness. 23 “All these wicked matters come from within and defile a man.”

Purging all the foods. What does Lev 11 say? 8 ‘Their flesh you do not eat, and their carcasses you do not touch. They are unclean to you.' Prohibited animals are not food. They cannot be eaten, according to the word of Elohim. They are 'not food.' Remember, the context of this whole discourse is about eating bread with unwashed hands.

Now the hard words to me from this passage were the first words of verse 21. 21 “For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed evil reasonings.... I wanted to justify eating bacon, pulled pork, ham sandwiches, pork chops and tenderloin, and I used the same evil reasoning that my father Adam did so many years prior. I negated the words of Elohim for the traditions of my elders, in this case, the eldest.

It was my evil intent to be disobedient that defiled me. I ignored all of Leviticus 11. I proudly said that is was not the word of Elohim. By ignoring the food laws there, I also showed my willing participation in the disobedience in Genesis 3 by partaking of what wasn't food with my father Adam.

I did not have this understanding until I questioned how Messiah could be sinless after I understood the concept that being touched by a bleeding woman made someone unclean. Messiah was touched by a bleeding woman, and by Torah, He became unclean. Was that sinful?

No, all He had to do to fulfill Torah was to wash with water, wait until evening, and then He was clean again. He just could not go into the temple. He was unclean. It did not make Him a sinner, but if He had not washed, if He had defiantly entered the Temple while He was unclean, then those actions would have been rebellion and sinful. The scripture doesn't say that He washed after that woman touched Him and was healed. But it does say that He lived a life of obedience to His Father and to His Father's words.

Shouldn't we?
 
Now when Jesus fed the crowds, he told them to gather up the remaining bread and fish. As not to waste any food. But he cast demons into a herd of swine, causing them to run off a cliff into the ocean. If these were meant to be eaten he wouldn't have wasted this food. This is how I see this on eating swine flesh.
 
I was somewhat confused by the OP. Are you suggesting that to avoid sin in the present time we must adhere to the Levitical dietary restrictions?
 
Did Messiah adhere to them? Is He the same yesterday, today, forever? One must decide for himself. I just posted my logic....
 
I used to say as a kid "G-D made dirt and dirt don't hurt" so I guess it really is biblical accurate. Sorry couldn't resist. Rich (my husband) says, "You eat over 3 thousand pounds of dirt a day!" Haha

~Asia
 
Oreslag, my understanding of these verses in the OP at a previous point in my life was that it didn't matter what I ate, as long as I was thankful for it. I now see that Adam and Hawwah's thankfulness for the fruit didn't lessen the disobedience to the word of the Father one bit.

Changing one's thinking from what has been taught by authorities is hard. My first encounter with that type of situation was the denomination I was brought up in forbade alcohol. Some in it even made the claim that the grape juice in the bible times was not fermented. But then I read, and more importantly, understood because truth had been revealed to me, that Messiah turned water into wine. And the conversation with the master of the feast indicated that the initial wine got people to the point where they didn't care what they drank. Led me to the conclusion that the wine was alcoholic and potentially inebriating. Only then could I see the fallacy of the non-fermented argument.

It was an aha moment for me when I was finally able to contrast the 'it was non-alcoholic' with all the various places in the scripture where it warns about getting drunk. But the original argument was powerful, as it came from people I respected in places of authority (parents, elders, pastors, etc).

The acceptance of polygyny as being righteous struggle for me was similar. It took years for the truth to sink in. For me it was accepting that the scriptures that Messiah had were divinely inspired, truth, and useful for doctrine. He didn't have the writings of Paul, which according to Peter, are hard to understand and easy to twist. I believe Peter even says that it is easy to twist other scriptures besides Paul's. (2 Pet 3:15 and following).

So yes, I believe that the unclean meats chapter in Leviticus is still in effect. If Messiah or Paul had authority to overturn the Father's word, then who can I trust? None of the three. I know that Messiah said He didn't come to change one of His Fathers words, and that it still stands.

So now that I have the understanding that I do regarding edible meats and not edible meats, this following passage makes a lot more sense. (I had to understand that polygyny is acceptable to the Father, too.)

1 Tim 4: 1 But the Spirit distinctly says that in latter times some shall fall away from the belief, paying attention to misleading spirits, and teachings of demons, 2 speaking lies in hypocrisy, having been branded on their own conscience, 3 forbidding to marry, saying to abstain from foods which Elohim created to be received with thanksgiving by those who believe and know the truth. 4 Because every creature of Elohim is good, and none is to be rejected if it is received with thanksgiving, 5 for it is set apart by the Word of Elohim and prayer.

If marriage is the context of this paragraph, and most on this site surely believe it so, then what are the foods that to be received with thanksgiving? Additional wives. Every creature of Elohim is good! In other words, if He sends you another woman of faith, don't reject her. Marry her! And be thankful. I know for a fact that there is a whole book devoted to the concept that a beautiful woman is like wonderful food to be enjoyed, and I believe that Paul is referring to it in this passage.

Peter's famous dream in Acts is about people being made clean, not pigs or snakes or catfish. So if the Father sends a beautiful, clean woman to me and I am already married, I should receive her with thanksgiving. He has provided me with another helper! He had deemed my vision worthy of needing additional help. And He has the right to expand my vision at any time. His call.

I know the power of paradigms. The anti-polygyny one is strong. But I believe it to be wrong. At least I do now. It sets me apart from the world, from my past, from my family.
 
Sorry Walt, I still don't follow you. I was asking what you thought of the Levitical dietary rules and whether or not they apply today. I didn't see an answer to that question in your most recent post. The reason I ask is that it sounds as though you are claiming that failure to adhere to all that God commanded the Hebrews to do, irrespective of His purpose for such a command, constitutes sin if not adhered to by all. Was this your point?
 
Dear Oreslag:

I believe that the dietary laws of Lev 11 apply to me today. That is my own choice. I attempted to show how I arrived at that reasoning. Since that has been revealed to me, I therefore must be obedient to what I am shown. I am not saying that for others.

My current understanding of Romans 9-11 is the general theme that followers of Messiah are grafted into Israel. Or adopted into the nation of Israel. If that is the case, and the 'constitution' of Israel is its 'law', or Torah, then maybe it should apply to me.

On a related note, Hannukah has just passed. It commemorates the re-dedication of the Temple. Here is an excerpt from an article regarding the defiling of the Temple.

"When the Second Temple in Jerusalem was looted and services stopped, Judaism was outlawed. In 167 BCE Antiochus ordered an altar to Zeus erected in the Temple. He banned circumcision and ordered pigs to be sacrificed at the altar of the temple (the sacrifice of pigs to the Greek gods was standard ritual practice in the Ancient Greek religion)."

Creatures declared unclean and unfit for sacrifice were offered to another elohim on the altar of YHWH. It was an abomination to the Ruach, or Spirit, that dwelt in the Temple then, it was in violation of the Father's word. Note the time frame, 167 BCE. The Temple had to be cleansed from the idolatry, the altars and statues of zeus had to be removed, and the altar had to be cleansed because of the flesh and blood of unclean animals slain upon it. It was an affront to not only the Jews, it was an affront and rebellious act to YHWH.

The Temple in Jerusalem is now gone. We are taught that our bodies are the Temple of the same Holy Spirit that dwelt in the Jerusalem temple. Would it be proper to slaughter a pig and bring it into that Temple? The self-same Spirit dwells in me....

So I have adopted the code of the Israelites for myself. It is important for me to tell others why I believe the way I do, that there are a few more ways of looking at the scriptures. Many of the things I now see in scripture are because someone took the time to write down what the Spirit had showed them. Some are just plain old revelation to me. This site and others helped me to understand the idea of polygyny, even though it was the reading of Moses that first started the spark of belief. I am still learning and studying. I have not arrived!

I am not in any position whatsoever to determine what others think. I have been given no leadership position outside of my home. So instead I share what I believe and why I do so. Part of why I do it is for those who might see any flaw in my logic or in my reading of scripture. Some of my errors have been caught here, and I quickly saw the light and changed my thinking. Or maybe I have some insight that might bless others in the body.

I hope that I have answered your questions more directly. If not, you could pm me.

Walt
 
When I saw the subject of this post; I clicked on it as I thought it would be a discussion of hand washing laundry versus using a machine.

:oops:

Well, I mean there are plenty of alternative folk here!

ylop
 
Yes, you've answered my question. Thank you for the clarification.

Certainly we all need follow the conviction of the Spirit upon us individually, for violating our conviction by the Spirit is sin. Perhaps also noteworthy, differing members of the body have differing callings, so it is very reasonable to expect that though a particular 'way' may be appropriate generally, it can also be inappropriate specifically. However, I think the following section of scripture addresses the relevant points generally for all:

(Romans 7:1-6)

Or do you not know, brothers—for I am speaking to those who know the law—that the law is binding on a person only as long as he lives? For a married woman is bound by law to her husband while he lives, but if her husband dies she is released from the law of marriage. Accordingly, she will be called an adulteress if she lives with another man while her husband is alive. But if her husband dies, she is free from that law, and if she marries another man she is not an adulteress.

Likewise, my brothers, you also have died to the law through the body of Christ, so that you may belong to another, to him who has been raised from the dead, in order that we may bear fruit for God. For while we were living in the flesh, our sinful passions, aroused by the law, were at work in our members to bear fruit for death. But now we are released from the law, having died to that which held us captive, so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit and not in the old way of the written code.

Thus, we now fall under the law of our Christ since we died to the law of the old covenant with Christ and rose in him as well to the new covenant in His blood; whatever He may command is our calling. Hence, my approach is to compare what Christ commands as recorded in the gospels and letters of the new testament to what was commanded in the old testament to discern which of those commands given to the Hebrews are no longer applicable. Presumably, the difference was only commanded by God for a specific purpose that met His will during that time. Otherwise, we live freely in Christ.
 
I understand your objection that it sounds like Christ would be contradicting his own laws if he were to declare all foods clean. You therefore reason that the term "food" cannot apply to all food but only to that which was already clean, in order to fit the passage to fit with your understanding.

So, is Christ breaking his law if he declares all food clean?
Matthew 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
So the law still remains, but some has been fulfilled. What has been fulfilled? Clearly the sacrifices, through Christ's sacrificial death.

Now lets look again at what you yourself have explained about unleanness. It is not a sin to be unclean, but has just one implication:
Walt said:
I did not have this understanding until I questioned how Messiah could be sinless after I understood the concept that being touched by a bleeding woman made someone unclean. Messiah was touched by a bleeding woman, and by Torah, He became unclean. Was that sinful?

No, all He had to do to fulfill Torah was to wash with water, wait until evening, and then He was clean again. He just could not go into the temple. He was unclean. It did not make Him a sinner, but if He had not washed, if He had defiantly entered the Temple while He was unclean, then those actions would have been rebellion and sinful.
Why does one enter into the Temple in the Levitical laws? To offer a sacrifice.

Do we now need to offer sacrifices? - No, Christ has fulfilled this.

Do we now need to enter the temple? - No, it doesn't even exist any more.

Do we now need to remain "clean"? - Not if we aren't going to enter the Temple.

Do we now need to watch what we eat? - No, I can eat pork and it is essentially "clean" to me as I am not going to try and offer a sacrifice anyway.

Christ declared all foods clean because there was no longer any reason for them to be unclean.

To try and maintain that some foods are unclean requires a lot of different verses throughout the New Testament that back this up to be interpreted in creative ways, such as your interesting interpretation of 1 Timothy 4:3-5 as relating to marriage and not food. I do not agree that the context of this passage is marriage, marriage is only mentioned briefly in three words at the start of verse 3. The previous chapter describes the qualifications of church leaders, then 4:1 changes the topic to discuss what will happen "in latter times". The context is prophecy about the future, and many different things are mentioned - people paying attention to misleading spirits and demons, lying, forbidding marriage, and requiring people to abstain from foods. This final point, about food, is elaborated over three verses, and is the most strongly made point in the entire passage. I would ponder this very carefully before teaching that people should abstain from certain foods...

I agree Peter's vision was about people, not food, so is irrelevant. We don't need to look at this vision to understand all foods are clean, we just need to read the passages where it is clearly stated, such as Romans 14:14.

Romans 14 clearly states that if you personally believe certain foods are unclean, you shouldn't eat them. But it also states that in reality all foods are clean.
 
Walt said:
The Temple in Jerusalem is now gone. We are taught that our bodies are the Temple of the same Holy Spirit that dwelt in the Jerusalem temple. Would it be proper to slaughter a pig and bring it into that Temple? The self-same Spirit dwells in me....
I understand your train of logic, but think you've taken it too far. Because if this is the correct way to understand uncleanness, we are now bound with far greater legalism than Christ was, and cannot even live normal lives without sinning.

You stated yourself that Christ could touch a bleeding woman without sinning, provided he did not enter the temple without washing first. But if your own body must be treated exactly as the Temple was, you cannot touch a bleeding woman ever - the moment you do you are unclean, in your own bodily temple, and therefore in sin.

It would be sinful for you to remove a dead mouse from a trap (Lev 5:2, 11:29), catch leprosy (Lev 13), have a running sore (15:2), bandage someone else's running sore (15:7), have sex (15:16)... It would even be sinful for a woman to give birth (Lev 12:2,5).

There is no difference between the uncleanness caused by eating pork, and the uncleanness caused by having sex. Both are only a problem if you are going to offer a sacrifice afterwards without washing and waiting until evening first. If you aren't going to offer a sacrifice, you are allowed to both have sex and eat pork.
 
Samuel,

Thanks for the kind words, and the spirit in which offered. I hope that I have a gentle spirit, also.

I am just trying to share the background of why I have come to think the way that I do. It is much different than just three years ago.

One of the things that I think about regarding sacrifices is this. I interpret Ezekiels' description of the temple to be one that has not been built yet. In chapters 43-46 Ezekiel goes into great description of all the types of offerings that will happen. It does not diminish what the blood of Messiah is, was and always will be, and that atoning work. I think about it. I don't have a conclusion regarding it.

Walt
 
My apologies, Samuel, I must not have made my thinking clear.

I tried to differentiate between the state of being unclean and disobedience to the commandment of the Father. If one were to touch a mouse, that is not sin. It makes one unclean. There is provision to be clean again. Some involve washing with water and waiting for evening to fall. Failure to do what is required to become clean could be construed as a sin. A man's release is not sin, nor is the birth of a child. However, blood is exchanged with both of those issues, and cleanliness is required. There are provisions to become clean. Messiah told the cleansed leper to present himself before the priest and to do what was required by Moses.

Matt 8: 2 And see, a leper came, and bowed before Him, saying, “Master, if You desire, You are able to make me clean.” 3 And stretching out His hand יהושע touched him, saying, “I desire it. Be cleansed!” And immediately his leprosy was cleansed. 4 And יהושע said to him, “See, mention it to no one. But go your way, show yourself to the priest, and offer the gift that Mosheh commanded, as a witness to them.”

Paul says in 1 Thess 4:7 For Elohim did not call us to uncleanness, but in set-apartness. 8 Therefore he who rejects this does not reject man, but Elohim, who also gives us His Set-apart Spirit.

And he also states in Gal 5: 19 And the works of the flesh are well-known, which are these: adultery,1 whoring, uncleanness, indecency, 20 idolatry, drug sorcery, hatred, quarrels, jealousies, fits of rage, selfish ambitions, dissensions, factions, 21 envy, murders, drunkenness, wild parties, and the like – of which I forewarn you, even as I also said before, that those who practise such as these shall not inherit the reign of Elohim.

Anyhow, these passages provoke me to find out what clean is so that I can inherit the kingdom. Along with getting rid of all the other things listed, like selfishness, jealousy, quarreling. That is why I try to communicate gently, with a soft spirit. To find the definition of clean vs unclean, I decided to use what the Bereans had as Scripture, that being Genesis through Malachi. That is just my choice.

Now regarding my decision on pork for me, not for anyone else, I choose to use the definition in Lev 11 that if it is not to be eaten, then I should classify it not as food. For me, I allow that definition to prevail, and use that as the lens I choose to affect my vision. And for me, if I eat that which I believe has been defined as non-food, then it does become sin because of disobedience. Assuredly, in Lev 11 there is also the connotation of it being unclean also.

This is probably not any clearer. Rest assured, I do not sit in judgment on those who disagree. I sure hope that from the tenor of my writing you can see and hear that.

I am not shy of dealing with thorny issues, but I do hope to do it in a respectful and thoughtful and considerate way. If disagreements occur, it should in no wise lessen my love for you, and I hope to encourage all here to love each other deeply. We will need it more, sooner than later.

Walt
 
FollowingHim said:
I agree Peter's vision was about people, not food, so is irrelevant. We don't need to look at this vision to understand all foods are clean, we just need to read the passages where it is clearly stated, such as Romans 14:14.

Romans 14 clearly states that if you personally believe certain foods are unclean, you shouldn't eat them. But it also states that in reality all foods are clean.
While I agree that the purpose of Peter's vision was related to people (i.e. Cornelius' house), I find it hard to consider the vision's use of food that was previously considered unclean to be irrelevant. In particular, the point of an analogy is to argue from the one case to its application elsewhere (i.e. comparison). Thus, the similarity between the previously unclean foods in Peter's vision and the house of Cornelius is that both have been made clean through God's sovereign action in Christ's work. Hence the vision is every bit as important to all things previously considered unclean; including food.

On your second point, I couldn't agree more!
 
Walt said:
To find the definition of clean vs unclean, I decided to use what the Bereans had as Scripture, that being Genesis through Malachi. That is just my choice.
If you choose to consider only the old testament, you'll certainly end up with more legalistic conclusions. You are limiting yourself to far less information than the Bereans had available to them, not the same scriptures.
Acts 17:10-11 And the brethren immediately sent away Paul and Silas by night unto Berea: who coming thither went into the synagogue of the Jews. These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.
The Bereans heard the teachings of Paul, directly from him. They then examined the Old Testament scriptures to ensure this new teaching was consistent with scripture.

If you wish to copy the Bereans, first study the teachings of Paul (Romans 14 is a good start), then check this agrees with the Old Testament.

However you appear to dismiss Paul's teaching. If you ignore the teaching of Paul, you are not copying the Bereans, but rather the Pharisees. The Pharisees did exactly as you are doing: examine the Old Testament and define rules for living based on that.
 
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