Have you ever been "that person"?...

[windblown]

EOT is a she.

 

[The Revolting Man]

I'm going to respectfully distinguish my beliefs from EOT's on a couple of points, but try to demonstrate something important about Biblical Families in the process. Make that, demonstrate something important about communication generally and about Biblical Families in particular.

I have not found the definition of "saint" to be summed up in Acts 15:19-21, and I cannot find the term "heavenly husband" or any idea that could be summarized thus anywhere in scripture. But due to EOT's careful language, I have no beef with him that's going to lead to hostility (at least on my part ).

In the same way that "We hold these truths to be self-evident" is NOT the same as "This is the truth", so saying you have found a way of looking at things that works for you is not the same as saying "thus saith the Lord". Important distinction.

Meanwhile, I'm not torah-observant and settled that matter over 15 years ago. But it's not my business how EOT reaches his conclusions or runs his family, except to the extent we want to have a good-natured discussion about our differences and see if either one of us has thought of something the other one hasn't considered before. I'm not his judge and he's not mine. That whole conversation, though, is by definition peripheral to the core mission of Biblical Families, and to the extent anyone wants to 'go there', we have hundreds of posts on point already on this forum suitable for browsing.

The thing about a husband's authority, though, couldn't be more central to our purpose, and can always use some further conversation. I essentially agree with Zec and VV76 re what the scriptures have to say and how that affects my family, and can't think of anything to add to what they've already pointed out. However, I still leave a lot of room for other men to figure out how vigorously to defend their God-given authority in all things and how much to leave room for their wives to hear from God on their own. So again, an interesting conversation worth having, but nothing to get crosswise over.

Peace, y'all.

It puts the whole topic in a slightly more dire light when you realize that EOT is a woman. It would be one thing if a husband thought this from his standpoint.

It's a little more concerning when a wife says she has this avenue for rebellion.

 

[Mojo]

Enlargeourtent, I agree with much of your sentiments. I don't agree with all, but I don't want to elaborate on that. I want to discuss just one area of concern for me.

"The wife should be gently led, not pushed. She should be convinced with Scripture, not manipulated with guilt trips or bashed with accusations of rebelliousness to get her to follow or submit to her husband's lead."

I think there are times when we need to push. Speak softly, but carry that big stick if necessary. I think there are times we need to be clear and point out rebellion. If a wife takes it negatively, it will only reveal her rebellion all the more. There was a famous book written by James Dobson years ago called "Dare To Disciple" ( I think). We need to dare to take authority. If you ve got a rebellious wife, it won't matter how you treat her, she will rebel, but that's on her. It sounds harsh, but you can't have a lower expectation for your wife than you would for your children (never push them to better things, or reminding them of who's boss every now and then).

 

[The Revolting Man]

Enlargeourtent, I agree with much of your sentiments. I don't agree with all, but I don't want to elaborate on that. I want to discuss just one area of concern for me.

"The wife should be gently led, not pushed. She should be convinced with Scripture, not manipulated with guilt trips or bashed with accusations of rebelliousness to get her to follow or submit to her husband's lead."

I think there are times when we need to push. Speak softly, but carry that big stick if necessary. I think there are times we need to be clear and point out rebellion. If a wife takes it negatively, it will only reveal her rebellion all the more. There was a famous book written by James Dobson years ago called "Dare To Disciple" ( I think). We need to dare to take authority. If you ve got a rebellious wife, it won't matter how you treat her, she will rebel, but that's on her. It sounds harsh, but you can't have a lower expectation for your wife than you would for your children (never push them to better things, or reminding them of who's boss every now and then).

Lord it takes a heck of a Pollyanna routine to rescue Dobson Mojo but you did it! Well done!

 

[Mojo]

Thanks.

I don't hate Dobson, and actually like some of his resources. But, I dont worship at his altar of self-imposed authority on all matters of social policy. I really began to sour on him as years went on when he got so overly political that it totally ruined the "focus" of Focus on the Family.

What's your biggest beef with him?

 

[Joleneakamama]

When you attempt to circumvent what Christ has established as you described above, even if you claim an altruistic motive, the result is a home with two heads and that is truly a monster!

I have to agree, and have seen good intentions on my mother's part destroy her marriage. My Dad just celebrated nine years with his current wife, and in my opinion the divorce was because my mom rather then submitting was constantly judging my dad's every action, making sure she was ok with supporting him, and persuading him to see things her way.

 

[Jeff Ray]

Reading some of the comments here, I am struck by how fortunate I have been. On more than one occasion, I have observed someone raise their hand during a sermon and (politely) interrupt the pastor with a question. The pastor answered, and the sermon resumed. Nobody seemed to think this unusual. At other times, when the pastor finished his sermon early (admittedly a rare event), he would open up the floor for questions from the listeners. Again, nobody seemed to think this unusual. I've seen this when attendance was 50, and when it was 1000.

I don't visit other churches much, so I suppose I'd forgotten that this isn't how most churches operate.

 

[ABlessedMan]

Mojo and Andrew, thank you for the mediating positions. Where we attend presently, there is a real concern to hear the word of the LORD and to consider it . . . at least at some level. As you said, Andrew, the expectation of real 'fellowship' . . . is kind of low. Yet the time is an act of worship, and submission to the LORD . . . and is spiritually uplifting even if we don't always enjoy it. At public worship today, I was comforted because I spoke with an older gentleman that I really like: just a down to earth saint.
The conversation on the authority of the husband is a good one for me to consider as well (thx, VV76, Zec, EOT, etc.) and brings me back to being 'that person.' I have never in my life heard an ongoing argument in a religious fellowship around the topic, "that is not what Jesus wants" or "that is not what Jesus is like." Normally we argue about 'things': beliefs, values . . frequently wants or fears, and sadly many of these have a fairly thin religious veneer. Frequently people on one side judge the others (rebellion in the bride of Christ?) . . . I love being in a conversation with 'that person' who is passionately committed to knowing and doing the will of God not from a standpoint of a rule book, but out of doting desire to please the LORD. In our area, many gatherings have put the cart before the horse . . . or left the horse off altogether. I guess for the time being maybe I should aim to be 'that guy' who is always talking about Jesus and what he has done . . . Honoring the heavenly husband of the church for putting up with a bunch of knuckleheads like me. I think I will make the commitment to admire him to others . . . Thank you all very much for the help. I still have a lot to learn.

 

[Verifyveritas76]

If I be lifted up . .. .will draw all men unto me

 

[andrew]

EOT is a she.

It puts the whole topic in a slightly more dire light when you realize that EOT is a woman. It would be one thing if a husband thought this from his standpoint.

It's a little more concerning when a wife says she has this avenue for rebellion.

At this point, identifying one's gender is optional upon becoming a member here. We might want to rethink that....

 

[andrew]

The wife should be gently led, not pushed. She should be convinced with Scripture, not manipulated with guilt trips or bashed with accusations of rebelliousness to get her to follow or submit to her husband's lead.

Coupla things:

Being "led gently" is a luxury, not a right. Sometimes circumstances permit committee meetings; sometimes more urgent action is required.

In my family, I have more than a few times used the expression "Do you want to have the long conversation where I try to convince you to agree with me, or do you want me to just tell you how it's going to be so we can move on?" Often the woman or child will opt out of the discussion if there's no hope of talking me out of something.

Guilt trips and accusations (name calling) can be manipulative, but objectively pointing out the perceived roots of someone's behavior is not by definition manipulation. You'd have to have video tape and objective juries to determine individual cases.

I don't spend any time or effort trying to "get" anyone to follow me anywhere; I just lead. If someone digs in their heels or becomes vocally defiant, there are consequences, and ultimately, if someone gets tired of following me, the doors aren't locked from the outside. So far, though, it seems to be working.

 

[andrew]

Mojo and ABM, I got no quarrel with churchgoers. Everybody's circumstances are different. Just telling my story.

I would highly recommend the small group experiment for anyone who isn't presently experiencing that on a regular basis. And I don't want to become that guy on this thread, but later this week I intend to open a thread on "prophetic intercessory worship" and "scary church" where I can unpack more thoughts on this topic. Gotta run now....

 

[andrew]

P.S. - ABM & VV76 nailed it re the pre-eminence of Christ. Everything else is just being religious.

 

[Mojo]

Mojo and ABM, I got no quarrel with churchgoers. Everybody's circumstances are different. Just telling my story.

I would highly recommend the small group experiment for anyone who isn't presently experiencing that on a regular basis. And I don't want to become that guy on this thread, but later this week I intend to open a thread on "prophetic intercessory worship" and "scary church" where I can unpack more thoughts on this topic. Gotta run now....

Not opposed to the cell/small group approach. When one pops up in my area, I will try it.


Funny story from yyyeeeeaaaarrrsss ago: My first year in college, I was invited to a small group study at someone's home. I went a couple of times, then some of the guys invited me to a large theatre where all the groups met. Turns out they were part of the "United"? Church of Christ. Most folks now view them with cultic overtones (sorry if any here are members). They believed that only their baptism was valid and that all other churches were not a part of the "United" body of Christ, and so forth.

 

[Verifyveritas76]

Baptist have the same thing with Baptist Brider's and Landmarkers though I don't think the latter is as bad as the former. It all falls apart however when you start examining their claims of 'authority'.

 

[andrew]

Not opposed to the cell/small group approach. When one pops up in my area, I will try it.

My specific suggestion is that you not wait for someone else to take the initiative, but be the guy that makes it happen. Think of two or three buddies you really care about whose families are basically compatible with yours, and invite them over to the house to 'go deeper' with some worship and prayer. Give it three meetings in three weeks and then let us know how it's going....

 

[Mojo]

Baptist have the same thing with Baptist Brider's and Landmarkers though I don't think the latter is as bad as the former. It all falls apart however when you start examining their claims of 'authority'.

Heard of both and would definitely take the latter if a gun put to my head, but will stay away from both.

 

[Mojo]

My specific suggestion is that you not wait for someone else to take the initiative, but be the guy that makes it happen. Think of two or three buddies you really care about whose families are basically compatible with yours, and invite them over to the house to 'go deeper' with some worship and prayer. Give it three meetings in three weeks and then let us know how it's going....

Hmmm, sounds like a plan.

 

[MrB]

I liked this
"there's a natural segue from "what kind of Christian do I want to be?" to "what kinds of Christians do I want to fellowship with?"."
This captures it for me
Some time ago I had to shift my thinking and behaviour from a victim mentality to that of a focused man ,husband leader head of the home ,the thing we talk about a lot.
Not being a part of the institution has been fantastic for my understanding of God
I've had to stand on my own two feet, being intentional.
I started by asking myself "am I thinking like a victim.?". Am I waiting for scraps to fall from the table?"
I can't or won't be the lazy spoon feed baby in the system that I once was
Besides some of that spoon feeding rubbish I just could not swallow.
Although the lack of Fellowship is an issue
Lately the question I'm asking is can I be proactive / intentional in finding those people that I can fellowship with?
Where you find these people (saints if you will) is a good question .How you qualify them is your business, if it's your interpretation of acts or they just they have a nice smile, whatever works for you. We all protect our home as we see fit, or not as the case may be.
I'm Loving the matrix analogy
It would seem I've taken the red pill, I might have had more than one...lol
Don't think I couldn't live in the matrix anymore.
I can enjoy a visit now and then. We visit, but the principal reason is I'm looking for people that we might resonate with. I miss that.
We need people around us, having said that not just anybody gets past our front door
I've learned to be cautious for the sake of my children.
If they are the type that jumps all over you for not having the same ideology as them....
They might be right! but if you are ugly cray-z with it ..your still ugly cray-z. Go yank someone else's chain.
You can't fake being free. By their fruits ...
I've managed to connect several times by asking some guys I respected if they would do breakfast at a cafe before work. We'd meet once a month ,I'll say it had limited success. Difficult to pray freely as they set the cafe up for the day.
probably once a month was not often enough.
Be intentional ! If we didn't book it in the diary it didn't happen
The first guy thought it was such a good idea he said he wanted to meet with some of the young guys from his Church, but couldn't continue with me.
I'll take that as a compliment, last meet was well over a year ago.
I need to be intentional again, breakfast and prayer always made the day a good one.
Thanks for the prompt Andrew

 

[andrew]

There's a big story behind this that I may tell some day, but my household has found that we have better results finding 'the right kind of women' in the churches, and 'the right kind of men' outside the churches. Alpha males aren't typically drawn naturally to the slave/victim/female vibe that typifies so many corporate churches, but some will go for various reasons.

People also act like churchgoers when they're at church, and often have a rather different personality in their natural habitat. Go for natural. Men you work with, or at the gym, or that you hunt or fish with, etc.