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Honor amongst patriarchal leaders

Melanie

New Member
Hello everyone,

I was reading another thread regarding marriage issues and someone made the statement that "teachers should be held to a higher standard".

Thinking of this would it be valid to expect that a leader within the christian community, a Pastor or Minister should be someone who conducts themselves honorably and honestly? If they are supposed to be providing leadership and teaching, in a position of trust do we have the right to hold them to a higher standard?

When you find that someone is not behaving as they should and doing things that create a stumbling block for weaker Christians what should be done about it?

Thanks,
Melanie
 
Melanie said:
Hello everyone,

I was reading another thread regarding marriage issues and someone made the statement that "teachers should be held to a higher standard".

Thinking of this would it be valid to expect that a leader within the christian community, a Pastor or Minister should be someone who conducts themselves honorably and honestly? If they are supposed to be providing leadership and teaching, in a position of trust do we have the right to hold them to a higher standard?

When you find that someone is not behaving as they should and doing things that create a stumbling block for weaker Christians what should be done about it?

Thanks,
Melanie

If a pastor is abusing his flock, the very first thing you need to do is leave if you are not in a position to remove him.

And yes, you should hold someone who claims to be a teacher to a higher standard, especially if that person singles you out for personal instruction in righteousness. I do not accept instruction from anyone who doesn't have an investment in me, and if they insist that they have a "true" gospel, then I fully expect them to walk 100% in it, without failure. Ever. Otherwise, they are simply blind guides, false prophets and are fools.

I am a little more forgiving of a pastor/teacher who I am in a covenant relation with, but even then I still insist on a higher standard of conduct and learning.

~Rusty
 
When you find that someone is not behaving as they should and doing things that create a stumbling block for weaker Christians what should be done about it?

This is an excellent question, Melanie. And since I will admit to both making the statement, and, on many occasions, falling short myself - I will try to put forth some explanation.

And I will start by one further admission: Both DaPastor Randy and Dr. Ray have made efforts to (presumably ;) ) chasten me gently for a reaction which could be characterized as either "zeal", or anger. There is a very narrow path there, which I do not claim to walk perfectly.

There are several answers to your question. They depend in part on our own roles -- which may be multiple. For example, I can and am both husband and head of my own house in one role, with certain very specific responsibilities and authorities. (These have been written of before - from Numbers 30 to Deuteronomy to the prophets, to Revelation.) We communicate with fellow believers in fellowship, as "iron sharpens iron", and may take on the role of both teacher and student, from time to time. This is the essential function of the ancient practice of "midrash", where teachers may well ask more questions than students. Finally, there are more formalized settings for both teaching and pastorship, and greater specific responsibilities which attend to each there.

Start with Matthew 18, and especially v. 15-17, for a specific procedure.

But the issue of true God-given 'authority' is key. Note that David, son of Jesse, did NOT harm King Saul when he had the chance - EVEN though he knew that God had promised him the kingdom. He was VERY careful to "touch not", and waited on Him, careful not to usurp even authority that he knew would eventually be his, before God's appointed time. (See Psalm 105:15, I Chr. 16:22, and the story in Samuel.)

Finally, the authority of a man over his own house (wives, children, livestock, home or "castle", etc) should be sacrosanct. This literally traces to Genesis 1 (see Tom Shipley's excellent book, Man and Woman in Biblical Law , referenced recently in a related thread, for a superb treatment of this truth. (See Gen. 2:22 ("isha"), 3:7, 3:16, etc, for the specifics.)

After the Torah, there is Joshua 24:15 ("as for me and my house, we will serve YHVH.")

I have never known a truly anointed teacher or pastor to violate that authority over another man's house (and, yes, I acknowledge the circularity of that statement, by definition. ;) )

I now explicitly note that we must be VERY careful not to USURP authority which is NOT given to us! A study of Yeshua's casting out of demons is extremely informative in this regard, I contend (and admittedly this single post can only be an introduction). The story of the Roman centurion (Matthew 8:5-17, and also Luke 7) makes a graphic statement, while the warnings of Matthew 12:43 (and Luke 11:24) offer the counterpoint (i.e., what can happen in the ABSENCE of continued proper covering). Likewise, our Savior gave us Authority, in Him, to "tread on serpents and scorpions" and "cast out demons in His Name" - but subject to the very limits of Authority that He taught! (We accept His sacrifice voluntarily, by a free act of our own will -- just as we enter into the marriage Covenant, itself a shadow of our relationships to Him.)

Finally, there are several stories of those who either had NO authority OR knowledge from Him to cast out demons, and suffered for it, or who (like the apostles) failed because they lacked knowledge or experience. "Even the demons" recognized His Authority when confronted. They knew the rules, too - often better than those who falsely claim to be acting "in His Name".

And note that it is the voluntary nature of that association and covenant which, I contend, establishes the essential basis of the "work", be it casting out demons or marital authority. Just "casting out demons" does not constitute proof of acting in His Authority, as Matthew 7:22-23 so dramatically makes clear!

There is much more that can be said, obviously, but this is already long.

I will add what I often do -- that in the presence of a clear usurpation of false authority, we must sometimes do what men who honor Him have done throughout history --
separate ourselves from the evil, put it out of our camp when we have such authority, touch not the unclean thing, or even "declare the causes which impel them to the separation" as Jefferson and the signers of the Declaration did to a King who violated the Supreme Law of "nature and of nature's God".

If we, and our house, truly belong to God and not to Caesar, there may come a time when we must "Come out of her, My people," whether it is a "church" or a state that, by the evidence of its fruit, clearly serves another master.


Blessings in Him,

Mark
 
Melanie said:
I was reading another thread regarding marriage issues and someone made the statement that "teachers should be held to a higher standard".

Thinking of this would it be valid to expect that a leader within the christian community, a Pastor or Minister should be someone who conducts themselves honorably and honestly? If they are supposed to be providing leadership and teaching, in a position of trust do we have the right to hold them to a higher standard?
Well Melanie, I think all Believers should act honorably and honestly, regardless of our individual positions within the Body. I would think those in leadership should be held to a higher standard overall, because they are teaching discipleship to others. But of course, none of us are without faults, so we need to make sure we don't hold others to such a high esteem that we see them as infallible. I hear that argument a lot among unbelievers, who view the hypocrisy that is common within the Church as a reason to avoid making a life commitment to Jesus. Don't judge the Master by His followers. Overall, we make lousy mirrors.

In my own life, I have a close circle of friends and we all hold each other accountable for our choices and our actions. In particular, I have one very close friend who acts as my armor bearer and he always watches my back. I rely on him to help keep me on track when I need a reality check in any area of life. And of course, my wife is my closest friend of all (outside of Jesus) and she and I share absolutely everything. She is my confidant, my adviser, my lover, and the mother of my two wonderful daughters. Having close friends who always know what you are doing holds one to a high level of accountability and responsibility.


Melanie said:
When you find that someone is not behaving as they should and doing things that create a stumbling block for weaker Christians what should be done about it?
It probably depends on what you mean by "a stumbling block". I know sometimes people can get agitated and lose their cool when discussing controversial and sensitive subjects, but I wouldn't hold that against anyone or consider that any kind of "stumbling block". A true brother or sister that earnestly disagrees with me is still my brother or sister and I wouldn't be acting in love if I allowed myself to feel resentful or offended simply because we have opposing views. As fellow believers, we are to love one another first and foremost.

That being said, suppose there was a teacher or leader that was abusing his position of authority in a harmful way. He should probably already be under the checks-and-balances within the congregation, so a lot depends on the nature of the behavior. Is the behavior impulsive or thought-out? Is it defensible? Is it public or secret? I knew a guy who was having a hard time dealing with a pornography addiction. He knew it was destructive but he was unable to break the strongholds in his life. It was taking a toll on his marriage and his life. Now, if he were in a position of leadership, I would work with him directly in order to help strengthen him and hold him accountable, but I wouldn't humble him before the entire congregation if his personal addiction wasn't directly affecting them.

But then say a leader was molesting women under his charge. Now he's using his position of trust to do harm to the body. Obviously the behavior is indefensible and most probably secret. I would take him to the elders and/or the congregation if needed to put an end to this behavior, because it has the potential to affect many others in the future. So a lot depends on the circumstances and intent. Generally, if the behavior is secretive from peers and the leader wants to keep it hidden, that's a good sign something is amiss. Darkness hates the exposure of the light.

Finally, we should always check our own motives. Are we acting out of love, or is there something else that drives us? Sometimes, the best thing to do is to accept that we are not perfect people and use that as an opportunity to love each other even more. Self-righteous indignation isn't seeking to act in love.

I hope that helps somewhat.

Love in Him,
David
 
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