How long does it really last?

[FollowingHim]

My wife and I have been lurking and learning here for a while, and have been very blessed to find such a wonderful group of people who are actually prepared to read and believe the Bible - a sadly rare thing among Christians. However we have one nagging reservation, much as we feel this is the life God is drawing us towards.

How long do Christian polygynous marriages really last in Western society?

There are a few people here who have had a second wife for a few months or years, and many hints of failures, for various reasons. How many people here have actually had a second wife for 10 years or more? How many polygynous men actually have two wives still with them in their old age? How many of these marriages actually last till death?

When such marriages have failed, who has left? First or subsequent wives? Most common reasons?

God certainly allows for this in scripture. But modern Western society is far from supportive, and I fear that it may be difficult to maintain such a marriage for life in our society. If it is too hard, is it wiser to refrain from polygyny, although acceptable, to avoid divorce, which is a sin?

Honest stories please rather than discussion of the theory, that is well covered elsewhere.

 

[Isabella]

Personally, I really believe the high failure rates have less to do with outside influences and more to do with what is inside the home, there are many, many major mistakes people make when entering into this lifestyle and also there are some choices people make which make it harder to sustain the relationships. I will break it down to make it easier and people are welcome to disagree if they wish but most of the successful Polygamous relationships I have observed (by successful I mean those of several years length or more) have run contrary to these models.

1) They rush into it. They find someone, often online, like them and quickly make a commitment. Of course people loved to quote the 'I married my wife/husband after knowing him three minutes, two seconds and we are still together thirty years.' but Polygamy is a more complicated type of relationship.
2) Couples very often have a set of ideals that they want the sisterwives to live up to, when single women fail to live up to them, the relationship does not last.
3) People insist they will need to be in the closet with their Polygamy. I have heard some people accuse this of being an external pressure, but it is an internal one. Why do people seek out a lifestyle that they cannot be open about I will never know. I accept the restriction of the closet if relationships arise spontaneously. But expecting women, especially young women, to live with you and have your children but keep it on the 'down low' is not very likely to keep a woman in the relationship.
4) Lack of preparedness, so many people seem to think that talking it over or convincing their spouse to be Polygamous is being prepared. It isn't. Couples tend to reinforce each others views with every conversation, that is not exactly being prepared. Because you are talking about yourself and the disruption to your lives but that does not mean you are done. Relationships that are constantly evolving need constant communication, input and research.

By the time many people come on here it is too late, they are invested in the ideal and they either have someone in mind or they are looking furiously for a sisterwife and they are unwilling to put the breaks on it and take it slow. Which means that often the relationships have a few months shelf life, but it is usually impolitic to mention that.

I would say that people who are around some years before meeting someone often have a better clue at what makes Poly relationships work though so there is hope that their relationships would get past the honeymoon period.
I think everyone needs a learning curve, especially since people often don't start looking for help, information and support until they start making mistakes, but the issue here is, as you stated, it is a bad thing to divorce, so there is a greater sense of failure and stress with trying and failing to maintain relationships that would still be at the 'getting to know you' phase in monogamy.

Bels

 

[CecilW]

Hear, hear, Bels! *Waving my mug of root beer around*

 

[FollowingHim]

Bels, thankyou for that very sensible advice, and it sounds like it comes from quite a bit of observation. Your point about secrecy is particularly valuable. I'm quite happy with the world thinking we're nuts (most already do!) so this is very good encouragement to actually be open should God provide this for us in the future.

I agree that internal influences are more important than external, they certainly are for monogamous marriage! But when you get these right, does it really work for the long-term, or is it just a dream?

Our issue is that we have no role models in this area, positive or negative. We don't even have polygynous Mormon communities to look at examples from. Nor is there much likelihood that we could ever come to your retreats (even if we could arrange it, I won't have my wife go through the full-body-scanners that US border security has implemented now).

Even while contending that you can make it work, you yourself mention "high failure rates", reinforcing my concern (I appreciate there are reasons that can be avoided in every one of these cases, so it does not contradict your point, but I hope you can see why we would find comments like that unnerving). If you could put some context around this it would be appreciated - what proportion of the polygynous marriages you know of have been successful?

I understand the Christian polygamy movement started in the USA in the mid-90's. In that case there should be marriages that are at least 15 years old by now. And there were certainly polygamists in America before that - LDS and the odd Christian who saw the light I expect - so there should be even longer marriages. Do these really exist?

Not criticising, just trying to learn from a position of complete inexperience.

 

[CecilW]

Yes, they do exist. The Head Poobah of this site, Nathan7, has been poly married since a wee bit before I met him in early '99.

When Bels mentions high failure rates, what we see happen quite a bit is that folks skip a courtship / betrothal stage and go STRAIGHT to the marriage (bed), often on their first meeting. Thus, in our view, a moral marriage covenant (one flesh) has been created. Then, if it doesn't work out, instead of having a very VALID situation -- you courted a bit and found it wasn't a match -- you've got a marital failure. Easy to fix. Keep it zipped a while! See one cookie or two for a real good take on this issue.

Here's a fact I discovered doing some research back in the 80s (long before I seriously studied PM.) Length of pre-marriage courtship is NOT a reliable indicator of whether the marriage will endure til death or not. Sorry. Just isn't. The study was, of course, done on monogamous marriages, but seems likely to hold true for poly ones as well.

However, it WAS positively correlated with degree of happiness in and with the relationship however long it lasted. Putting a personal point on it, my first wife and I were best friends for 6 years before our marriage, and remain good friends now, 12 years after our 21 year marriage ended. Seems likely that this would hold true in poly marriages as well.

Part of the problem, in my estimation based on observations, is that poly minded folks are most likely to meet a "potential" over the internet where there is serious geographical separation. Yet to effectively court -- to spend a lot of time together in one or the other's home, and see if the family can naturally start to integrate -- someone is going to have to uproot. And then if it doesn't work out? It's a problem.

My suggested solution is that it may often be better to look around you off-line, and see if you can befriend someone, or several someones, one of whom may decide to just quit going home ... :lol: If you read how things have progressed in the Froggie Family Chronicles, you'll see what I mean. They didn't even start with PM in mind.

One more thought: If you seriously contemplate PM, would it be appropriate now to begin preparing a place for a new wife, and perhaps her children? If younger, perhaps add bunk beds to the kids' rooms? Allocate or add a new Master Suite? (Can be used as a guest room in the meantime, right? So no harm ...) If someone began spending a lot of time at your house, her kids hanging with yours, etc., you could tell them that such and such a bed was theirs whenever they were over, if they needed a nap, or got too tired in the evening and crashed ... You could even tell "her" the same regarding the spare bedroom. Might not have to do much theorizing, when by and by PM became a clear natural progression.

And that does seem to be a key: The more it seems like a natural progression, rather than a forced, artificial, high adrenalin of the moment thing, the greater seems the likelihood of it lasting.

That said, we're all still human, and there ARE no more guarantees than in mono marriages.

 

[FollowingHim]

Cecil, thankyou for the clarification on what you class as failure, I would use the same definition myself. "Keep it zipped" is very good advice for ANY dating couple, and it is sad to think that some Christians might use PM as an excuse to ignore that basic principle.

It is good to know that you can make it work. However once again a concerning point pops out in your own post - the fact that your first wife left you 12 years ago (presumably when you got seriously into PM? Sorry to pry, no need to answer if you aren't comfortable with that). This too I would class as a failure, although no doubt you still consider her your wife and pray for her return. Fortunately I do not expect such a result with my own, since she is on this journey with me and is as keen as myself, although there is a risk that her views may change if this became a reality instead of a conversation I cannot see that resulting in anything more than her being unhappy but sticking by me. So I suppose this example is not as concerning as it might initially appear.

We have already been discussing preparing our home for this possibiiity. We need to extend anyway (trusting God with our family size, so could need a few more bedrooms...), and will certainly put at least two master bedrooms into the extension - or just make all the rooms the same size for maximum flexibility! I had already been considering the "natural progression" route and had come to the same conclusion as yourself.

I have no idea where a PM-friendly second wife would come from, but if God was powerful enough to give me my first wife while I was looking in the other direction at someone else, He can certainly put my second wife in my path in a way I can't ignore either!

 

[CecilW]

the fact that your first wife left you 12 years ago (presumably when you got seriously into PM? Sorry to pry, no need to answer if you aren't comfortable with that).

Not a matter of "comfort", my friend. The important issues are open transparency, in my book. SOOO much less stressful. Don't have to remember who I said what to. *wry grin*

Yes, it was over PM. I recently made a comment to the effect that there were probably other issues involved, to which she replied, "Nope. Just PM."

In fact, as I began looking for answers to lifelong questions on the topic, as to when the morality of it had changed, I was confronted with much LARGER issues of Biblical manhood, and began changing. My wife observed those changes and expressed her appreciation of them, but said, "If they come at the price of PM, I'm outa here."

The problem for me is that once any truth is clearly revealed, I'm not free to "turn back". So when she eventually required that I go before the church and publicly recant, confessing that my true reason for pursuing the topic was for purely prurient reasons, and I refused since it wasn't and I couldn't, she left. A year and a half later divorced me, a process in which (you're right) I refused to take part in any way, so that there would never be any barrier to her return. She has not married anyone else, so I'm still the onlyest hubby she got.

About a year and a half after that, God dropped my current wife into my lap, so to speak, while I was busy asking Him whassup with (7) other single women?!!! Our "courtship" lasted 12 weeks, mostly by phone and IM, but with one 2-hour-or-so visit in the middle. We've been through a much different experience in the last 9+ years than my first marriage. In some ways, higher highs and lower lows, but still hanging on.

Rough patches don't matter. I'm lookiong to hear my Father say, "Well done!"

Having said that, even if this marriage were to ultimately end, I cannot consider EITHER of them a failure. Sorry. Can't do it. Too many good times, and good memories. To many kids fostered, adopted, stepped, raised. To much travel and friends made and experiences shared, and food eaten, and hands held, and people set free of bad situations.

I've watched too much wonderful growth take place in both wives' lives, hopefully mine as well, and if we don't have it all right as yet, well, the end of the story ain't wrote yet neither! Can't wait for the next chapter! But the marriages aren't failures! There is Love (with a capital 'L'), and Love never fails! :ugeek:

 

[FollowingHim]

Cecil, thankyou very much for your honesty. There is nothing you can do over a wife leaving over your beliefs (as opposed to actions), so I apologise for any offense. Your story really helps me to appreciate the wonderful gift that God has given me in my wife. It also makes me think that if God has given me such a rare gift (a submissive wife who is interested in PM) then He probably intends me to do something about it one day, why else would He have trusted me with her? Now that's an exciting thought!

 

[FollowingHim]

About a year and a half after that, God dropped my current wife into my lap, so to speak, while I was busy asking Him whassup with (7) other single women?!!!

And I love that testimony! It's basically how I met my wife, but on a bucket-load of steroids!

 

[CecilW]

I apologise for any offense.

None taken. :mrgreen:

LOL on the steroids.