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How to be Christlike: Why I'm a Violent, Gun Toting Prepper

11 Yes! I tell you that among those born of women there has not arisen anyone greater than Yochanan the Immerser! Yet the one who is least in the Kingdom of Heaven is greater than he!

12 From the time of Yochanan the Immerser until now, the Kingdom of Heaven has been suffering violence; yes, violent ones are trying to snatch it away.

The understanding I have reached is it is speaking of Roman suppression of faith, the priest use of violence to persecute groups like Yeshua and the disciples, the Essene amongst others who only recognized the written Torah. I fail to see anything confirming or denying the right to self defense. Just a prophetic warning mixed into the lesson about who John the Immercer and Yeshua were.

13 For all the prophets and the Torah prophesied until Yochanan.

14 Indeed, if you are willing to accept it, he is Eliyahu, whose coming was predicted.

15 If you have ears, then hear!

Nehemiah 4:13-14

13 So in the lower parts of the space behind the wall, I stationed men according to their families, with their swords, spears and bows.

(soldiers)

14 After inspecting them, I stood up and addressed the nobles, leaders and the rest of the people: “Don’t be afraid of them! Remember Adonai, who is great and fearful; and fight for your brothers, sons, daughters, wives and homes.”

(civilians)

Scripture does warn about seeking out violence and glorifying violent men. There are always consequences for our actions. If you are defending the life of family, friends, neighbors, self or corresponding property, it's not from righteous beleivers but wicked men.

Proverbs 11:7-10, 27

7 When a wicked man dies, his hope perishes; what he hopes for from evil comes to nothing.

8 The righteous is delivered from trouble, and the wicked comes to take his place.

9 With his mouth the hypocrite can ruin his neighbor, but by knowledge the righteous are delivered.

10 When the righteous prosper, the city rejoices; and when the wicked perish, there is joy.

27 He who strives for good obtains favor, but he who searches for evil - it comes to him!

"G-ds a bit fuzzy on knee caps" Shepard Book
 
Slumberfreeze said:
"From the time of John the Baptist until now the kingdom of heaven suffers violence and the violent take it by force" is the same thing as God allowing the church to use violence?

I'm needing that broken down for me. That is not what those words say to me and I'm not sure how you get there.
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The literal interpretation of those words, and this is my understanding (maybe @IshChayil could give a better explanation) is that the Kingdom of God is being said to allow forcefulness and that the forceful take it by force, as in the subjects of the Kingdom of God are forceful and that this is a good thing.
 
Mathew 11:12 should perhaps be considered in light of other verses that talk about violence happening in the kingdom of Heaven.
In Mathew 21 Jesus is talking to the Chief Priests and Elders, then he relates the parable of the two sons, and then the parable of the wicked vinedressers. Verse 33 is where the story I remembered begins, and it is apparent that this is speaking of Jesus and his end at their hands. Jesus then tells them "The Kingdom of God will be taken from you and given to a nation bearing the fruits of it." This says plainly that they kingdom was there at that time, and that these men were taking it, or trying to hold it by violence. The Chief Priests it says in verse 45" perceived that He was speaking of them." This was not an old theme, because when you read the parable these same people killed the prophets too. "The kingdom of heaven suffered violence," and the violent took it, and kept it, by force. King Herod was sure not in any hurry to turn it over to the rightful heir now was he? This has continued and is the "War in heaven" that is talked about in Revelation. Those trying to manifest Christ's kingdom on earth are up against every government power out there. The dragon has 7 heads and ten horns and rules over the nations of the earth. We all know that these systems are opposed to Christ, and believers still suffer violence perpetrated by the systems out there. Waco, Ruby Ridge, and countless others. Michael and his angels fought against the dragon, and the dragon prevailed not.....where was this dragon, and over what did it rule? Where are we now? What is coming soon is the establishment of the kingdom and the harvest of the world.
I'm going to stop now. But just looking at the context of the verses talking about heaven, and the location of the dragon does kind of let one know where this battle of the ages has been, and is being, fought.
 
ZecAustin said:
The literal interpretation of those words, and this is my understanding (maybe @IshChayil could give a better explanation) is that the Kingdom of God is being said to allow forcefulness and that the forceful take it by force, as in the subjects of the Kingdom of God are forceful and that this is a good thing.
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I wish I could Zec.
This verse has confused me for some time. I haven't yet seen a satisfactory explanation. the Greek is just like you say, literal forceful actions.
 
IshChayil said:
I wish I could Zec.
This verse has confused me for some time. I haven't yet seen a satisfactory explanation. the Greek is just like you say, literal forceful actions.
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But it's literal forceful actions against heaven. Plus G-d fearing men have engaged in violence before the time of John the Imercer. Thats a very specific time frame.
 
Josephus has quite a bit to say about the Jewish religious wars that were fought over control of the “kingdom of heaven”. The mediation of these wars is what gave the Romans their platform to invade and subsequently rule the region.

These were actual wars fought between the Pharisees and Sadducees under authority of the later Maccabees to justify these internal wars and attempted religious cleansings much like the Irish Protestant and Catholic wars.
 
I see spiritual side to this aspect of the Kingdom of Heaven suffering violence. there is the aspect of forceful faith. Elijah prayed earnestly that it would not rain. his faith was relentless until he saw the fulfillment. Elisha smote the water with the mantle and cried where is the Lord God; of Elisha! Blind Bartimaeus, the woman who was willing to ask for crumbs, are all examples of persistent faith. The example of the Judge who heard the woman and the
neighbor who gave the bread in the middle of the night, also come to mind. Specifically it mentions the ministry of John the Baptist. His ministry officially opened the door to salvation through repentance, and grace through faith and baptisim without requiring the law and sacrifice by the repentant for those who would press into it ​
 
I don't think this verse is necessarily about physical violence at all. Where the KJV says "suffereth violence", the word is "biazo", meaning to force, press, crowd oneself into. The only other occurrence is Luke 16:16, which is a parallel as it discusses the same time period. Here it is simply translated "presseth":
"The law and the prophets were until John: since that time the kingdom of God is preached, and every man presseth into it."

The BBE translated Matthew 10:12 to be consistent with this:
"And from the days of John the Baptist till now, the kingdom of heaven is forcing its way in, and men of force take it."

There is a lot we could say about this verse, but I see no reason to think it has anything to do with self-defence. That idea hangs solely on the inconsistent translation of one word as "violence" when it is given no such connotation elsewhere.
 
FollowingHim said:
There is a lot we could say about this verse, but I see no reason to think it has anything to do with self-defence. That idea hangs solely on the inconsistent translation of one word as "violence" when it is given no such connotation elsewhere.
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I wouldn't go so far as to say that it is a direct statement of self-defense myself, but it does seem to fly in the face of the sandal wearing hippy Jesus trope. This is a verse that we can't deny has forceful men connected to a forceful kingdom of heaven. It almost seems like limiting it to self defense would do less "violence" to some of our modern preconceptions than dealing with forceful men and a forceful kingdom of heaven.
 
ZecAustin said:
This is a verse that we can't deny has forceful men connected to a forceful kingdom of heaven.
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Agreed.

It's not about defence - it's about offence. Strong, forceful men boldly proclaiming the Kingdom to an ungodly world. And that's not done with swords. So this is a powerful verse, but off-topic.
 
FollowingHim said:
Agreed.

It's not about defence - it's about offence. Strong, forceful men boldly proclaiming the Kingdom to an ungodly world. And that's not done with swords. So this is a powerful verse, but off-topic.
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Well now you might going to far in the other direction. The verse itself doesn't exclude the use of swords. The verse itself leaves the reader with the understanding that forcefulness in general is in keeping with the character of the Kingdom of Heaven and it's followers. We need to go to other sources to give us an idea of how that force is to be applied and limited. But considering that Jesus told us to buy swords I wouldn't consider any statement He made about forcefulness to be off-topic. In the Marine Corps we referred to offensive and defensive operations as "the use of force." This verse probably needs some more exploring before we just dismiss it.
 
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