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John the Baptiser

steve

steve

Seasoned Member
Real Person
Male
I have been thinking about John.
I always just accepted the story of him preaching repentance and baptizing people. Baptizing Yeshua. Ticking off the kings new wife and getting beheaded.

But was there a deeper purpose in his ministry?
Was he running interference for his cousin?
Was he to hold the attention of the authorities while his cousin built his ministry?
Would Yeshua’s ministry have been any different if John had not existed?
 
He was the first of the two “friends of the bridegroom”. These two are referred to as “Moses” and “Elijah” although their given names aren’t those. Elijah is the friend that announces the bridegroom, usually with the phrase “He is nigh even at the door” or something similar like “the kingdom of Heaven is at hand.” Moses is the friend that remains with her from betrothal til marriage and helps her to prepare for her groom, teaches her about her husband to be in the form of commandments or laws/expectations, and lifts him up so that she is eagerly anticipating her wedding day.

If John is the New Testament Elijah, who is the New Testament Moses?
 
Verifyveritas76 said:
He was the first of the two “friends of the bridegroom”. These two are referred to as “Moses” and “Elijah” although their given names aren’t those. Elijah is the friend that announces the bridegroom, usually with the phrase “He is nigh even at the door” or something similar like “the kingdom of Heaven is at hand.” Moses is the friend that remains with her from betrothal til marriage and helps her to prepare for her groom, teaches her about her husband to be in the form of commandments or laws/expectations, and lifts him up so that she is eagerly anticipating her wedding day.

If John is the New Testament Elijah, who is the New Testament Moses?
Click to expand...
I knew somebody had additional info. Thanx!
Yes, who is our Moses?
 
I'd say Peter. Explaination coming later
 
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I say the Holy Spirit.

Exodus 3:15
God also said to Moses, “Say to the Israelites, ‘The Lord, d the God of your fathers—the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac and the God of Jacob—has sent me to you.’

John 16:13
But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all the truth. He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Cap said:
I say the Holy Spirit.

Exodus 3:15
God also said to Moses, “Say to the Israelites, ‘The Lord, d the God of your fathers—the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac and the God of Jacob—has sent me to you.’

John 16:13
But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all the truth. He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come
Click to expand...


Would not the holy spirit be the holy spirit?. The same one from the Tanahk doing the same job it did through the prophet's just on a larger scale since the day of pentacost.

Moses and Aaron
Peter and Andrew

Both had brothers who sought after them when G-d called:

Aaron sought Moses at Mt. Horeb's desert
Andrew went to find Peter (John 1: 41)

Both "shepherds" of G-d's people:

Moses shepherd for forty years watching father-in-laws sheep.

Peter a fisherman called to become shepherd of Christians. ("Feed my sheep.")

Both had a miracle associated with their introduction to G-d:

Miraculous fire in burning bush
Called with miraculous catch of fish

Both had a miraculous fire associated with their call to lead G-d's people:

Called by angel in burning bush
Tongues of fire come upon him

Both called to go before secular leaders in behalf of G-d's people:

Called to go before Pharaoh
Witness before governors and kings (Matt. 10:18)

Both recoiled from G-d's presence at first:

Moses said, "Who am I, that I should go before Pharaoh?" (Ex. 3: 11)
Peter fell at Jesus feet and said, "Go away from me, Lord; I am a sinful man!" (Luke 5:8)

Both men represented G-d to the people and the world:

G-d told Moses that Aaron, "will speak to the people for you, and it will be as if he were your mouth and as if you were G-d to him." And, "Then the LORD said to Moses, 'See, I have made you like G-d to Pharaoh, and your brother Aaron will be your prophet.' "(Ex. 4: 16; 7:1)

G-d told Peter, "And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not overcome it. I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will beloosed in heaven." (Matt. 16:18, 19)

Both calls were in the context of understanding who G-d was, the "I AM."

Moses asked G-d's name and He responded, "I AM, who I AM."
Jesus asked Peter "Who do you say that I AM?" And Peter's answer proved he understood who Christ was. Both were given authority upon the name of the Great I AM.
After being commissioned, both were immediately rebuked:

Both publicly betrayed G-d:

Moses by hitting the rock
Peter by denying Him three times

Both were given the ability to perform signs and wonders!
 
That’s a pretty good analysis @Kevin, and you may be right, however, one of Moses’ responsibilities was to give the new “bride” a thorough understanding of her groom and covenant.

Here was my second clue (after the friends of the bridegroom being Moses and Elijah). From the Testament of the Patriarchs, Benjamin’s last words to his sons commenting on the blessing of Jacob for him

Genesis 49:27. Benjamin shall ravine as a wolf: in the morning he shall devour the prey, and at night he shall divide the spoil.

Testament of Benjamin
And I shall no more be called a ravening world on account of your ravages, but a worker of the Lord, distributing food to them that work what is good. And one shall rise up from my seed in the latter times, beloved of the Lord, hearing upon the earth His voice, enlightening with new knowledge all the Gentiles, bursting in upon Israel for salvation with the light of knowledge, and tearing it away from it like a wolf, and giving it to the synagogue of the Gentiles, and among their rulers as a strain of music in the mouth of all; and he shall be inscribed in the Holy Books, both his work and his word, and he shall be a chosen one of God forever; and because of him my father Jacob instructed me, saying, he shall fill up that which is lacking of thy tribe

Romans 1:1&2
Paul, a servant of Jesus Christ, called to be an apostle, separated unto the gospel of God,
(Which he had promised afore by his prophets in the holy scriptures,)

Acts 9:15
But the Lord said unto him, Go thy way: for he is a chosen vessel unto me, to bear my name before the Gentiles, and kings, and the children of Israel:

Acts 13:47
For so hath the Lord commanded us, saying, I have set thee to be a light of the Gentiles, that thou shouldest be for salvation unto the ends of the earth.

Acts 22:14,15
And he said, The God of our fathers hath chosen thee, that thou shouldest know his will, and see that Just One, and shouldest hear the voice of his mouth.
For thou shalt be his witness unto all men of what thou hast seen and heard.
 
Paul was the only Benjamenite if I'm not mistaken. True he did write most of the epistles and was the Apostle to the Gentile. He did miss the rehearsal dinner and was late to the party. It's late and I'm not thinking clear but didnt Peter receive a vision about the gentiles and baptise Cornelius before Paul became the Apostle to the gentiles.
 
Peter does say that he was chosen from among the twelve? To take the gospel to the gentiles, however, I believe in the chronology of Acts that the conversion of Paul and his commission was previous to that. I do find it interesting that in his first trip back to Jerusalem as a believer that he only met with Peter.

There is also a nugget in this perspective re: First Adam/Second Adam.

In the morning he shall devour the prey, and at night he shall divide [or distribute] the spoil.
First Saul of the tribe of Benjamin devoured the prey (1 Sam 8:10-18). Second Saul of the tribe of Benjamin assisted God in giving it all back.
 
Kevin said:
Would not the holy spirit be the holy spirit?. The same one from the Tanahk doing the same job it did through the prophet's just on a larger scale since the day of pentacost.

Moses and Aaron
Peter and Andrew

Both had brothers who sought after them when G-d called:

Aaron sought Moses at Mt. Horeb's desert
Andrew went to find Peter (John 1: 41)

Both "shepherds" of G-d's people:

Moses shepherd for forty years watching father-in-laws sheep.

Peter a fisherman called to become shepherd of Christians. ("Feed my sheep.")

Both had a miracle associated with their introduction to G-d:

Miraculous fire in burning bush
Called with miraculous catch of fish

Both had a miraculous fire associated with their call to lead G-d's people:

Called by angel in burning bush
Tongues of fire come upon him

Both called to go before secular leaders in behalf of G-d's people:

Called to go before Pharaoh
Witness before governors and kings (Matt. 10:18)

Both recoiled from G-d's presence at first:

Moses said, "Who am I, that I should go before Pharaoh?" (Ex. 3: 11)
Peter fell at Jesus feet and said, "Go away from me, Lord; I am a sinful man!" (Luke 5:8)

Both men represented G-d to the people and the world:

G-d told Moses that Aaron, "will speak to the people for you, and it will be as if he were your mouth and as if you were G-d to him." And, "Then the LORD said to Moses, 'See, I have made you like G-d to Pharaoh, and your brother Aaron will be your prophet.' "(Ex. 4: 16; 7:1)

G-d told Peter, "And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not overcome it. I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will beloosed in heaven." (Matt. 16:18, 19)

Both calls were in the context of understanding who G-d was, the "I AM."

Moses asked G-d's name and He responded, "I AM, who I AM."
Jesus asked Peter "Who do you say that I AM?" And Peter's answer proved he understood who Christ was. Both were given authority upon the name of the Great I AM.
After being commissioned, both were immediately rebuked:

Both publicly betrayed G-d:

Moses by hitting the rock
Peter by denying Him three times

Both were given the ability to perform signs and wonders!
Click to expand...

Very good points. That does make sense. The only reason I came up with my response was because I understood that, yes the holy spirit is the holy spirit, but until Christ's death and resurrection the holy spirit operated outside of us, corporately mostly and individually as needed. However, after the resurrection the holy spirit is given to ALL of us to lead us into truth, just as Moses did. I really don't know if I'm right.
 
According to the research at biblesearchers.com the last legitimate High Priest was Yeshusa III. Herod had him killed and began appointing brothers and others to serve but they were not legitimate. Yeshua III had a daughter Elizabeth who married Zacharias the parents of John. Why did the people come to hear him? He was the one who should have been the High Priest! His baptism of Jesus, was a transfer of authority to Jesus who now is our King and Priest and has the priesthood of Melchesidec and has the right to the priesthood of Aaron also. The Melchesidec priesthood was the joining of King and Priest. Jesus is literally both! There is a scripture that
seems to confirm this. when pressed for authority to act and teach in the Temple Jesus referenced the baptism by John! ​
John said that Jesus would increase (the transfer of authority) John was actually appointing Jesus as the rightful High Priest by the Spirit and through Jesus mother's connection to the priesthood as a descendent of Aaron. Mary's mother was Elizabeth's sister.
 
Cap said:
Very good points. That does make sense. The only reason I came up with my response was because I understood that, yes the holy spirit is the holy spirit, but until Christ's death and resurrection the holy spirit operated outside of us, corporately mostly and individually as needed. However, after the resurrection the holy spirit is given to ALL of us to lead us into truth, just as Moses did. I really don't know if I'm right.
Click to expand...
I would have thought the same way in the past, but have found too many people being referenced as having the Spirit of God, or the Spirit of Wisdom (which seem to be close to synonymous by my reading). It seems the Spirit had a wide role before Christ also. No doubt it expanded at Pentecost, otherwise that event would be meaningless. But I don't think the change is as clear-cut as in traditional church teaching.

For example, Numbers 11 shows the Spirit being placed on 70 elders, in a similar event to Pentecost accompanied by all the elders prophecying and surprising everyone - yet Moses still states that he wishes all would have the Spirit. The similarities are as interesting as the differences.
 
Verifyveritas76 said:
Peter does say that he was chosen from among the twelve? To take the gospel to the gentiles, however, I believe in the chronology of Acts that the conversion of Paul and his commission was previous to that. I do find it interesting that in his first trip back to Jerusalem as a believer that he only met with Peter.

There is also a nugget in this perspective re: First Adam/Second Adam.

In the morning he shall devour the prey, and at night he shall divide [or distribute] the spoil.
First Saul of the tribe of Benjamin devoured the prey (1 Sam 8:10-18). Second Saul of the tribe of Benjamin assisted God in giving it all back.
Click to expand...
So one of my pet theories is that Paul was the rich young ruler that Jesus called to sell everything and follow Him. If that were true then Paul would have received a direct call to Apostleship. It's just one of my many unsubstantiated musings but it makes me happy.
 
Jim an Apostle said:
According to the research at biblesearchers.com the last legitimate High Priest was Yeshusa III. Herod had him killed and began appointing brothers and others to serve but they were not legitimate. Yeshua III had a daughter Elizabeth who married Zacharias the parents of John. Why did the people come to hear him? He was the one who should have been the High Priest! His baptism of Jesus, was a transfer of authority to Jesus who now is our King and Priest and has the priesthood of Melchesidec and has the right to the priesthood of Aaron also. The Melchesidec priesthood was the joining of King and Priest. Jesus is literally both! There is a scripture that
seems to confirm this. when pressed for authority to act and teach in the Temple Jesus referenced the baptism by John! ​
John said that Jesus would increase (the transfer of authority) John was actually appointing Jesus as the rightful High Priest by the Spirit and through Jesus mother's connection to the priesthood as a descendent of Aaron. Mary's mother was Elizabeth's sister.
Click to expand...
Now this is fascinating!
 
Mojo said:
What about a secular source or other source?
Ate there sources cited here? I didn't see any.
Click to expand...
I’ve just read thru their info quite a while back. I think they have a book on the subject that’s sourced but don’t quote me on it
 
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