So when you're asked one day if "your partner" is your wife will you lie or tell the truth!?
The truth will come with a cost of prison time for bigamy.
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Legal name change for second wife in Texas
- Thread starter Elijahsfire
- Start date
So when you're asked one day if "your partner" is your wife will you lie or tell the truth!?
The truth will come with a cost of prison time for bigamy.
Seems over there as well, if you get married, they give you a licence. So would "we haven't' got a licence" work?
I'm not someone for debates on legality, but I will say I'm really not happy about the fact that I can't be called a wife outside of the home without fear. It may be silly and inconsequential, but yeah, I do want to be acknowledged by others as my husband's wife.
That being said, we prefer "roommate" for plural wives in our household. It's true because I do share a home with my husband and 1st Wife, and it gets us off the hook with neighbors and acquaintances when we are all together, as we usually are.
That being said, we prefer "roommate" for plural wives in our household. It's true because I do share a home with my husband and 1st Wife, and it gets us off the hook with neighbors and acquaintances when we are all together, as we usually are.
I agree with all that (except I don’t think feeling that way is silly and inconsequential at all). This current predicament is a blot on our civilisation.
I bet there was a time when Sarah very much wanted to be acknowledged as her husband’s wife as well, but that was exactly how God did acknowledge her, and he saw to it that it didn’t matter who didn’t (Gen 20).
The truth is she isn't your wife in the legal sense of the word. If in that situation, my preference would also be to call her my "life partner." This conveys a lifelong intimate relationship, but inherently indicates that it's not legally recognized. If someone were to challenge further and ask, "What's the difference between wife and life partner?" I'd respond, "legal semantics." If the government doesn't want people to use a certain word or face legal consequences, that's ok. It doesn't change the truth. That term is probably the one I'd stick with because it's the most descriptive, legally defensible, and truthful.
For another good example, you could call her your "helper" as Eve was called. It's not illegal to have helpers, but the term not fully descriptive. Fine. You could go with "my woman," "my queen," "my love," or use the Klingon translation of wife (but only if you're a trekkie). If people want to know more, they will keep asking. The key is that current law prohibits the use of terms "husband" and "wife" if it's a concurrent relationship. Myself personally, I'd just treat it like a copyrighted word. Come up with a new one that means essentially the same thing and realize that it's only really important for quick introductions. If they want the paragraph version or the full description, they'll need to stick around for a while. People who care to get to know you will find out what your relationships are all about anyway.
I'd avoid "fiance" because it would suggest sinful premarital intimacy, which I don't want to be associated with, and really it sounds duplicitous. You wouldn't consider yourself married to your fiance, so that would be more of a lie. Concubine indicates that you married a slave woman in the Bible's definition or in the modern sense she's more of a sex object, which isn't correct in either sense, so I wouldn't use that one either.
Fiancee is not a "lie"; we really are committed to becoming married when/if that is legally possible. It's just not effective at communicating, at least not as an opening. It still can be useful at some point in the conversation, depending on the audience. Otherwise I agree with you 100%.
We can all get over the "lie" thing; that's not the issue here. What is the issue is the dawning awareness that we give too much control over our lives to "what other people think". This is cultivated throughout our culture, including especially our religious institutions.
After 20 years and 100s of these conversations, there are only a couple of handfuls of people in my life that I really care one way or the other what their opinion is of me, my family, and my choices. I am accountable to God for the way I live my life. I choose not to break the law of my state, believing there is no point in my picking a fight with secular authorities over semantics, while respecting the rights of others to make different choices. And "it's complicated" is still a valid, true answer to the question "so what's y'all's relationship?" asked by a busybody that has no business asking the question (and so is "none of your business"). Share the details of your relationship with those you are close to and care about, and let the others think what they will.
We can all get over the "lie" thing; that's not the issue here. What is the issue is the dawning awareness that we give too much control over our lives to "what other people think". This is cultivated throughout our culture, including especially our religious institutions.
After 20 years and 100s of these conversations, there are only a couple of handfuls of people in my life that I really care one way or the other what their opinion is of me, my family, and my choices. I am accountable to God for the way I live my life. I choose not to break the law of my state, believing there is no point in my picking a fight with secular authorities over semantics, while respecting the rights of others to make different choices. And "it's complicated" is still a valid, true answer to the question "so what's y'all's relationship?" asked by a busybody that has no business asking the question (and so is "none of your business"). Share the details of your relationship with those you are close to and care about, and let the others think what they will.
The problem we are faced with is that western culture has stolen God's words, and added to and taken away from the meaning in ways that are unscriptural and that we reject. When we use the same words that they use, we mean different things to what they mean, and vice versa.
When we are in some conversations with some people, we have to make decisions about which set of definitions we are going to use, and we have more flexibility than they do, because we know their definitions but they do not know ours.
When Elijah talks to those who believed in Baal, he speaks to them according to their understanding, as if Baal was a god and had conscious existence:
1Ki 18:27 And it came to pass at noon, that Elijah mocked them, and said, Cry aloud: for he is a god; either he is talking, or he is pursuing, or he is in a journey, or peradventure he sleepeth, and must be awaked.
but when Hezekiah prays to God, he speaks plainly, but even so, still feels able to say that they, according to the perception of men, were burning "gods" not firewood:
Isa_37:19 And have cast their gods into the fire: for they were no gods, but the work of men's hands, wood and stone:
and if we use fiancé or betrothed in a scriptural sense then it can mean "wife" in the scriptural sense
Mat 1:24 Then Joseph being raised from sleep did as the angel of the Lord had bidden him, and took unto him his wife:
Mat 1:25 And knew her not till she had brought forth her firstborn son: and he called his name JESUS.
But if we use "marriage" and "wife" in the sense they mean it, those terms may not be accurate to describe our situation based on scripture. As Jesus had occasion to say:
Joh 8:43 Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word.
When we are in some conversations with some people, we have to make decisions about which set of definitions we are going to use, and we have more flexibility than they do, because we know their definitions but they do not know ours.
When Elijah talks to those who believed in Baal, he speaks to them according to their understanding, as if Baal was a god and had conscious existence:
1Ki 18:27 And it came to pass at noon, that Elijah mocked them, and said, Cry aloud: for he is a god; either he is talking, or he is pursuing, or he is in a journey, or peradventure he sleepeth, and must be awaked.
but when Hezekiah prays to God, he speaks plainly, but even so, still feels able to say that they, according to the perception of men, were burning "gods" not firewood:
Isa_37:19 And have cast their gods into the fire: for they were no gods, but the work of men's hands, wood and stone:
and if we use fiancé or betrothed in a scriptural sense then it can mean "wife" in the scriptural sense
Mat 1:24 Then Joseph being raised from sleep did as the angel of the Lord had bidden him, and took unto him his wife:
Mat 1:25 And knew her not till she had brought forth her firstborn son: and he called his name JESUS.
But if we use "marriage" and "wife" in the sense they mean it, those terms may not be accurate to describe our situation based on scripture. As Jesus had occasion to say:
Joh 8:43 Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word.
As @Quartus mentioned, "No, we haven't gotten a license." is a legal, honest answer. Also culturally appropriate as in ours and many other cultures we give other names for women with marriage like relationships which don't have the approval of law. Today we say partner or girlfriend.
There are a plethora of other words to use. I am partial to 'my woman'.
I like Andrew's attitude. Most people just don't deserve to have their opinion count.
I have never cared much what others think of me, and when I met my husband, and decided he was the right sort, and who I wanted to spend my life with, I didn't care what most of the people in my life thought of him either (my Dad approved!)
After almost 22 years together most that know us are sure we were, and are, a good team.
If my hubby ever has another wife, I will consider her a blessing. I would never live my life to please people I rarely see. That means anyone disowning us, or breaking fellowship over our beliefs, or the unlikely event of another wife in our family....well I hope they don't let the door hit 'em in the rear on their way out! Lol
I would MUCH rather have a co-wife for life, then manipulative, fair weather friends and family!
I have never cared much what others think of me, and when I met my husband, and decided he was the right sort, and who I wanted to spend my life with, I didn't care what most of the people in my life thought of him either (my Dad approved!)
After almost 22 years together most that know us are sure we were, and are, a good team.
If my hubby ever has another wife, I will consider her a blessing. I would never live my life to please people I rarely see. That means anyone disowning us, or breaking fellowship over our beliefs, or the unlikely event of another wife in our family....well I hope they don't let the door hit 'em in the rear on their way out! Lol
I would MUCH rather have a co-wife for life, then manipulative, fair weather friends and family!
Hear, hear!
I want to go back to the "lie" thing for a minute (as if it's a choice between "lying" or going to jail). The word "wife" connotes certain legal rights and social status, which rights and status are not available to more than one woman at a time (in relation to a particular man) in this culture, so to use the word "wife" with respect to the second or third woman you add to your family in this culture is a lie. The nicest thing you can say about it is that it's wishful thinking or a game of make believe, and using terms like 'covenant wife' or 'spiritual wife' are just ways to say "the woman I'm going to pretend is my 'wife' who is not really my wife in any meaningful legal or social sense".
Those of you who are already living plural know what I'm talking about. Those of you who aren't will figure it out when it becomes a practical issue.
Again, Zec nailed it here:
Shouldn't we also be distancing our selves from things that are meaningful legally or socially? I understand the nessecity to stay on the right side of the Law from the I want want to keep my butt out of Jail point of view but no secular government has the authority to pass any law concerning Marriage. They can not sanctify a covenant made between people and G-d. Then we all agree where Society places it's values and it's not from the source of all that's Good. That being said. It comes to where your willing to draw the line in the sand and if your willing to accept any possible consequences. From what I was reading about the bigamy law and pleases correct me if I'm wrong. It all hinges on the issue of portraying as legally married for the purpose to defraud another. I went through and looked at a lot of the bigamy prosecutioning in Texas (they are far a few in between) and there were no cases that the overloaded Texas court system prosecuted a man for bigamy for simply being married to two or more women. They all involve some type of fraud of a third party or against one of the spouses, usally the second. That's just how I see it.
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Piggybacking off Zec's comment: One of the things that changes is the way you move through the world. First thought is you keep your woman or women (and children) closer, less 'out and about' in the world and subject to the kinds of social pressure that make these kinds of conversations seem so important. Second thought has to do with institutions: If you home school and meet with a small house church or cell church of real brothers, you have less interactions that bring up stupid questions. Last thought (for now) has to do with self-employment and family businesses, again, reducing the need for random pointless social interactions.
That second-to-last post from Andrew may be BF's most concise, direct, and useful post on the matter.
It's advice from someone who's an actual lawyer — not pretending like the rest of us — and is living the life. It's practical and not ideological.
It's also bound to get swamped by me-too posts that muddy the water, but oh well.
If you want to bookmark that post for easy reference, click the "#50" link below it and bookmark that page.
It's advice from someone who's an actual lawyer — not pretending like the rest of us — and is living the life. It's practical and not ideological.
It's also bound to get swamped by me-too posts that muddy the water, but oh well.
If you want to bookmark that post for easy reference, click the "#50" link below it and bookmark that page.
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Kevin, I get what you're saying, but for you I'd say just remember that neither biblical Hebrew nor biblical Greek have a word in the vocabulary that equates to "wife", so what's your point? The very word is a modern legal/social construct (particularly legal, and the social follows from that). So you do what you want when the time comes, but as a matter of semantics, meaning, and communication, "wife" is just not the right word in our culture for a woman that doesn't have the legal rights that the word "wife" refers to.
As for the law, it's baked into the bigamy law that any attempt to perpetrate a second marriage is void, thus underscoring my point. And yes, generally in Texas, bigamy prosecutions are rare, and typically driven by someone else's complaint or accusation (so the guy in D/FW that was secretly married to two women (I think I discussed that case elsewhere on the forum) or the flap over the YFZ community when they moved to Texas, which was not a matter of fraud), but fraud is not an element of bigamy. If you represent a second woman as your "wife" to the general public, you are committing a felony.
As for the law, it's baked into the bigamy law that any attempt to perpetrate a second marriage is void, thus underscoring my point. And yes, generally in Texas, bigamy prosecutions are rare, and typically driven by someone else's complaint or accusation (so the guy in D/FW that was secretly married to two women (I think I discussed that case elsewhere on the forum) or the flap over the YFZ community when they moved to Texas, which was not a matter of fraud), but fraud is not an element of bigamy. If you represent a second woman as your "wife" to the general public, you are committing a felony.
Right. So don't use the world's word to describe something that's from God.
The guys that are talking about coming up with a new grammar of relationships are on the right track. The guys that are still trying to figure out how to do this on the world's terms just aren't as far down the rabbit hole.
I guess technically, I'm not even a wife, though everyone knows me as such. We opted for no license, and even a property attorney here in Arizona said that "common law marriage state" or not, I really did not have a legal claim on hubby's property. I really could care less if the state aknowleges our relationship as a marriage. Inheritance for children, and provision for women in a family, can all be taken care of other ways.
Exactly. Just want to drop a plug here for the upcoming summer retreat, where legal alternatives to secular marriage will be one of the topics.
Sorry if I wasnt clear. I was talking about Society's need to define our women/significant other/partner/swamp witch as wives to have legitimacy or allowing our relationships to be defined by a legal system that doesn't have the authority to do so. The point was neither has the right to define what term we call a woman we bring into our house and I guess I was asking the question why it is important that we identity the woman/women in our lives as wife/wives. I call ****** my wife all the time, but lately we started talking about if that term actually holds any meaning anymore or if it ever did.
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Ok so I'm not cool with being called his swamp witch.....most of the time....but with that being said I don't feel like he has to call me his wife either...in general now in the aspect of PM it does not make sense that I be called wife (even though I am his legal wife) when subsequent women can't. I would say I am his woman, his help meet or something simular. The hardest thing for me and I'm guessing for any other woman he brought into our family would be not calling him husband because to me that word implies authority. He's shown me and explained that there's no biblical word for husband. The closes words to express the meaning I want would be Adonai or L-rd but people already think I'm being "controlled" so I think it would just be throwing fuel on the fire.