Loving = Knowing God

[CecilW]

Beloved, let us love one another: for love is of God; and everyone that loves is born of God, and knows God. He that loves not knows not God; for God is love.

Caught on a personal dilemma. And before anyone asks, this is NOT related to a prospective wife, but to a small group of classmates from a religiously abusive high school we all attended.

Jesus said, "No-one comes to the Father but by Me." John 14:6 I assume that we all agree it does say that.

But that is NOT quite the same as saying no-one will be saved (Final destination: Heaven & Eternal life, not Hell & Eternal [and here another argument starts]! :lol: ). Just that, sooner or later, they gotta go through Him to get to the Father. Maybe even that everyone who IS saved is saved as a result of Him, whether they know it or not. Possibilities exist within the John 14:6 statement, though it is not what we normally teach or hear taught from the pulpit. Now to my case in point.

I have these friends. Raised in a religiously abusive environment. I survived the institution for 3 years as a teenager and then skeedaddled. They were RAISED there! Beatings, shamings, locked in closets, sexually abused. In one case, mom packed a 14/15 yr old girl's suitcase, took her to the closest city, dropped her on a busy street and said, "You're on your own," then told all of us that she ran away! All of this in the name of the Lord, righteousness, and raising them to be good so that Jesus could love them!

Any surprise that they want nothing to do with God & Christianity today? At least one describes herself as a BAP (Born Again Pagan) and is bringing in the new year with a sage smudge & bell to fix up her house ...

Yet, all 3 that I am thinking of are loving, kind, nurturing people. 2 are nurses. They turned away from the unloving spirit they knew and had experienced as "Christianity" in favor of lives of loving kindness.

Which brings me to 1 John 4:7-8. It seems that while humans messed them up as regards Christianity, they do, by that definition, know and are born of God. Which means to me that they may well be in heaven, in shock, having to learn THERE what Jesus is really like!

What say you?

PS: Yeah, I know, there are similarities to a recent discussion re: Ayn Rand. But this is a bit different take on it ...

 

[JustAGuy]

This topic makes PM seem like a theological walk in park! :lol: On a more serious note, I'm mindful many beheadings have happened over this topic.

I say your POV isn't heretical but I wouldn't teach it from the pulpit. Maybe keep it in your back pocket?

Enjoy,

Just A Guy

BTW, I see discussions on BF going back to 2011 per search here and before that try 400 AD w/Augustine of Hippo in http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perseverance_of_the_saints. This isn't a simple topic. But it's a great chance to understand the free will/salvation topic. Did you know John MacArthur and John Piper are into Calvinism? And Dietrich Bonhoeffer was into Lutheranism? And Billy Graham and CS Lewis are Arminian? So do you all know which camp you're in? Like other Arminian's, I'm in this camp: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conditiona ... the_saints

 

[FollowingHim]

This is an emotive issue as it is a very important one for the lives of people, and involves the absolute fundamentals of the Gospel. I think it is very important to divide it into two very separate questions, because it is very easy to get into an argument here simply from talking at cross purposes without discerning that each person is considering a different question:

1) What should we teach that a person must do to be saved?

The Bible is very clear that to be saved we must accept Jesus as Lord.

if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved

A pagan, by definition, does not accept Jesus as Lord. Therefore whatever their upbringing we cannot have confidence that they are saved - on the contrary, we MUST assume that they are not. It is our duty to preach salvation to the lost, and if we go assuming people are saved who are probably not we may shirk this duty, and fail to spread the Gospel as God wishes us to.

We must not preach that you can be saved through anything other than truly repenting of the past and accepting Jesus as Lord - which means you will follow Him in your life, because if not you can't truly believe He is Lord.

2) What mercy may God show when actually judging who is and is not saved?

Having said that, we serve a merciful God. For instance, I believe that God will judge people based only on what they know - so a stillborn child who never had a chance to learn about God could be saved, and a tribesman in a remote jungle who has never heard the Gospel could be saved, due to God's mercy. But we aren't told this for certain, it is just a logical conclusion based on what we know of God's justice.

Likewise we can hope that people like Cecil's friends will be saved. But we can't assume they will be. So before they die we should focus on still bringing them to Christ and not get complacent. But then if one dies without turning to God we can start hoping and praying that they will actually be saved through God's mercy - whether there is truly hope for that or not makes no difference at that stage, and thinking it at least makes the funeral less depressing...

 

[CecilW]

Samuel, with respect, THAT answer seemed more emotive, and didn't address the issue that John PLAINLY says that he who loves IS born of God and KNOWS God!

Jesus did NOT say, "He who loves, is born of and knows God, but does not confess me due to having been taught lies about me is NOT saved." Only gave assurances that if you DO confess Him, you ARE!

I'm not looking for an excuse to cease evangelizing. Jesus instructed us to go and make disciples.

I'm dealing with the very provocative statement made by the Apostle John. *I* didn't say it, he did. I'm just NOTICING it, and being a bit dumbfounded.

 

[FollowingHim]

Cecil, I'm not concerned you will stop evangelising, I'm just making sure this point (that is inherent in your own thinking but not stated) is clear to any reader.

Fair point that I didn't actually address the passage in question, sorry about that.

7 Beloved, let us love one another, for love is from God, and whoever loves has been born of God and knows God. 8 Anyone who does not love does not know God, because God is love. 9 In this the love of God was made manifest among us, that God sent his only Son into the world, so that we might live through him. 10 In this is love, not that we have loved God but that he loved us and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins. 11 Beloved, if God so loved us, we also ought to love one another. 12 No one has ever seen God; if we love one another, God abides in us and his love is perfected in us.

13 By this we know that we abide in him and he in us, because he has given us of his Spirit. 14 And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent his Son to be the Savior of the world. 15 Whoever confesses that Jesus is the Son of God, God abides in him, and he in God. 16 So we have come to know and to believe the love that God has for us. God is love, and whoever abides in love abides in God, and God abides in him. 17 By this is love perfected with us, so that we may have confidence for the day of judgment, because as he is so also are we in this world. 18 There is no fear in love, but perfect love casts out fear. For fear has to do with punishment, and whoever fears has not been perfected in love. 19 We love because he first loved us. 20 If anyone says, “I love God,” and hates his brother, he is a liar; for he who does not love his brother whom he has seen cannot love God whom he has not seen. 21 And this commandment we have from him: whoever loves God must also love his brother.

In verse 15 and 16 John states first that if you confess Jesus is God's son God abides in you, but then also that if you abide in love the same is true. Are these additional, two different ways of having God, or are they both describing the same thing in different words?

Verse 7 starts by stating "let US love one another", so the entire passage is addressed to Christians, and is stating how Christians should behave and how we should love each other. I think given the thrust of the remainder of scripture it is safest to read it entirely in that context and see it as applying only to those who already confess Jesus as Lord (ie my point 1 above).

In my reading of this, God is love and the origin of love, sending love to us in Jesus (v9) and the Holy Spirit (v13). We are therefore also to love, and the fact that the followers of God love confirms that God is in them (v16) and gives confidence of salvation (v17). Verse 20 also confirms to me that this is talking about those who claim to love God, and we can see if they are truthful by whether they love others.

But it is a fascinating statement nevertheless, and the verse itself does not limit that statement to Christians alone. I just think it is safest to assume that limitation given the context and the remainder of scripture.

Thoughts?

 

[CecilW]

You might be right. It might be an additional requirement on top of confessing that Jesus is Lord. After all, Jesus DID say that there will be those saying "Lord, Lord", to whom He will say, "I never knew you." It follows that there will be those who confess who nonetheless will not be saved, with Love-In-Action being a/the deciding factor.

Got stuff to think about. ...

 

[steve]

After all, Jesus DID say that there will be those saying "Lord, Lord", to whom He will say, "I never knew you."

Yup, while we may be shocked by who is there, we may be more shocked by who is not there. :?

 

[CecilW]

And lots of "them" may well be shocked over US being there, Steve! YeeHaw! :lol:

 

[JustAGuy]

The Bible is very clear that to be saved we must accept Jesus as Lord.

if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved

Totally. And I must apologize for playing devil's advocate but consider if Rom 10:9 is the only standard then it could mean we all go to Heaven because every knee will bow and every tongue will confess per Isaiah 45:23 or Romans 14:11 or Philippians 2:10. And we know not everyone goes to Heaven.

I love the clean standard of Rom 10:9 but IMHO there's corollaries from it like the Heb 11 saved by faith and the eternity in their hearts from Ecclesiastes 3:11.

 

[FollowingHim]

I have always read "every knee shall bow" as meaning that eventually all creation will be forced to acknowledge that God is true, as they see Him come in judgment. But then will be too late for salvation as they still chose to reject Him in life. I may be wrong, but that's what I have always assumed, and it means there is no contradiction - please correct me if I am wrong of course.

 

[JustAGuy]

...But then will be too late for salvation as they still chose to reject Him in life.

And as it is appointed for men to die once, but after this the judgment, so Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many.

Besides the above do you know of a passage in the Bible saying it's only when you're physically standing on this planet that you have the opportunity to choose Jesus? Note there's a gap in Hebrews 9:27 at the comma - what happens after you die and before the judgment? Do you have any chance when you're w/Lazarus in "Abraham’s bosom?"

So it was that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels to Abraham’s bosom. The rich man also died and was buried. And being in torments in Hades, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. “Then he cried and said, ‘Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame....’

I don't know the answer. I'm just saying there may be loop holes Jesus could use (like a lawyer finding ways to save us from paying too many taxes but still observing all the law) to get additional people into Heaven who are fringe cases. God sending his own son is such a loop hole. Not sure Satan saw that coming. Maybe there's others? Maybe there's not. I know God's has awesome ingenuity and dedication not to see a single sheep get lost out in the cold.

Even the demons believe—and tremble!

To further stir the pot couldn't we say that by the Rom 10:9 standard that since demons believe in Jesus they should go to Heaven?

Sorry for stirring the pot. This is certainly off topic for BF.

PS. If I'm not dead by morning for comparing Jesus to a lawyer then I'll be a happy man.

 

[FollowingHim]

The demons believe He exists, but don't accept Him as Lord.

Such loopholes may exist, but it's much safer to presume they don't and be pleasantly surprised if you're wrong than the other way around.

 

[CecilW]

JustAGuy, This is posted in the Other Biblical Issues section. You're on topic.

Demon's salvation: Hebrews something says something to the effect that God does not make salvation provision for them. (Sorry, reading Hebrews over & over just now, and it's late, and no energy to look it up.)

 

[steve]

Aww JAG,
You are not stirring nearly enough
So I will throw on in: Can demons get converted?

Re: Abraham's bosom, my understanding is that they were all provisionally saved through following the law. That Yeshua's fulfillment of the sacrifices made it complete.
But someone may have actually studied this and may be able to correct me.

 

[JustAGuy]

I'm not dead so I'll post again.

The demons believe He exists, but don't accept Him as Lord.

Yes, totally "accepting Him as Lord" is needed but Romans 10:9 doesn't say that (unfortunately). Again of course it's required! The point is: this verse doesn't make salvation as clean as it appears on the surface. There's nuances, like lordship, as you so well point out.

Such loopholes may exist, but it's much safer to presume they don't and be pleasantly surprised if you're wrong than the other way around.

Love that, yes, totally.

My objective is to accurately communicate what God is like - who he is. What makes him tick? And it's loving and saving people and restoring and healing and blessing people - causing me to produce fruit when I gave up on myself ever amounting to anything. This point is, "What's God's heart?" and "How much does he care?" not, "What exceptions can be made?"

Demons. Oh bother. IMHO, non-human celestial beings aren't made of the same stuff we are like soul & spirit & "image of God." So "saving" them doesn't really apply to them in the same way it does us - like: Why would demons want to be in Heaven anyway? They were already there and decided anything would be better than that, so why go back?

For more stir-the-pot-action remember it's speculated celestial beings aka "sons of god" aka "bene-ha ‘elohim" took material form and had relations w/beautiful women in Genesis 6:2. So the break between the "parallel" worlds isn't "clean." It's possible to be in both worlds at the same time for example Jesus walking through walls in his resurrected body. It's dirty. It's hard to grasp. It's mind bending. And BTW it jives w/quantum physics. IMHO, this is great, it means the story isn't made up, it's so ethereal it couldn't possibly been cooked up using human imagination. How could 1st century Christians know walking thru walls is scientifically supported if, like Jesus, you occupy more than one space-time dimension? It's basic quantum tunneling and string theory folks, come on.

The phrase “sons of ‘elohim” is used in Job 1:6; 2:1; 38:7, as well as in Genesis 6:2,4. In each of the former cases, the reference is to angels. Psalms 29:1 and 89:7 use the phrase “sons of ‘elim,” which may refer to heavenly objects. “Sons of ‘elyon” (Psalm 82:6) may refer to the elders of Israel. Daniel (3:25) uses the phrase “like a son of ‘elohin,” which has reference to spiritual beings of some description. http://www.apologeticspress.org/rr/reprints/Sons-of-God-in-Genesis-6.pdf

 

[golden2seal]

Ya'll have come up with some very interesting things on this topic. I'm no Preacher, but I'm well read in the Scriptures over many years. I know You're just stirring the pot. But some of the things mentioned on here makes Me wonder if there's a bible I've not read, or how much good homemade wine You fellows had the night before Your post. You're a bunch of good people, well intending to do the right thing, but there's a few questions that I can't help but ask. 1. If the Creator is comming back here to earth to set up His Kingdom, why do You want to go to someplace else? 2.If You're going to heaven, which one, there's three of them spoken of in the Scriptures? 3. If You're trying to avoid going to hell, which one, there's 3 different ones spoken of in the Scriptures, and neither one of them burns for ever and ever?
4. Then, what about the 3 different resurections spoken of in the Scriptures? 5. What about this great event most Christans talk about, but don't exist in the Scriptures, called a Rapture? I usually read the old Geneva Bible and the late 1500's, King James, and yes, it has 179 mistranslations. But is there any better.

just stirring the pot, Me,

 

[JustAGuy]

A bunch of pot stirrers we are! :lol:

#1 - Good point. Need to Google that. Thanks.
#2 - Pass
#3 - Pass
#4 - Interesting, what are the practical implications here? But is it on topic w/original post? Maybe start new thread for this?
#5 - Pass

 

[FollowingHim]

If you want to really dig into the Bible on this, certainly private message Brian!

From the other extreme:
1,2,4,5: All potential answers sound great, whatever the details I want in!
3: All potential answers sound terrible, I want out!
Better follow Christ then I suppose.

 

[davidedmorn]

I had gone through the post. I too believe loving, equal to knowing God. Jesus is our forerunner. This gives us the certainty of everlasting life.
hebrew roots bible

 

[Wesley]

Jesus said, "No-one comes to the Father but by Me." John 14:6 I assume that we all agree it does say that.

But that is NOT quite the same as saying no-one will be saved (Final destination: Heaven & Eternal life, not Hell & Eternal [and here another argument starts]! :lol: ). Just that, sooner or later, they gotta go through Him to get to the Father. Maybe even that everyone who IS saved is saved as a result of Him, whether they know it or not. Possibilities exist within the John 14:6 statement, though it is not what we normally teach or hear taught from the pulpit. Now to my case in point.

We agree on the basic content of John 14:6. Christ also said some other things that seem to apply to the issue of salvation however.

Matthew 12:31-33 NIV
31 And so I tell you, every kind of sin and slander can be forgiven, but blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven. 32 Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but anyone who speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come.

33 “Make a tree good and its fruit will be good, or make a tree bad and its fruit will be bad, for a tree is recognized by its fruit.
(Also in Mark 3:38-39 and Luke 12:10)

So speaking against Christ is not an unforgivable sin. Peter denied Christ three times and was forgiven so it doesn't seem to me like verbally denying Christ is unforgivable, especially if our actions (which speak louder than words) accept Him.

Further, we also have these two passages to think about...

Matthew 7:21-23 NIV
21 “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?’ 23 Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’

So simply professing Christ, without obeying Him, apparently is not enough to be saved.

And...

Matthew 25:37-40 NIV
37 “Then the righteous will answer him, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? 38 When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? 39 When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?’

40 “The King will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers and sisters of mine, you did for me.’

This makes it appear that there will be people accepted into Heaven who end up wondering why they are there. How could a person who has knowingly accepted Christ as his savior end up wondering why he was accepted into Heaven?