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Mail Order Brides

This is my first post here (I think). Been a member for years, getting the newsletter, but now you have a forum!!! Wow!!! It is going to be great to talk to like-minded men!!!

BACKGROUND ON ME
I raised 4 sons back in the day...have dated many women since the typical dramatic American divorce.

I have one wife at present, Mexican, but the relationship has always been stormy, and she has never actually lived with me. She lives with her family in California and visits me occasionally.

I left the US around October 2013, drove south to Ensenada, Baja California, Mexico. Lived there 2 years, much of the time in a really nice beach cottage. During that period I had only one 2 week flirtation with a 19 year old beauty from a poor family but didn't close the deal. I have no regrets about taking the shot.

Decided to try Asia to find (1) health and fitness classes etc (2) A more invigorating class of expats than just tired old retirees. (3) More cultural acceptance of polygamy.

Moved to Chiang Mai, Thailand November 2015. Jury's still out, but if I can import brides from rural Thailand, or from Burma or Laos, or the Philippines, I may stay.

I had resolved to date only untouched young women, but I did end up with living with one Thai divorcee and her 9 year old son for 3 months. Had a great time, again no regrets about taking the shot.

Generally I have found divorcees to be a lot of fun, but not submissive enough for my taste.

With all my gf's I cover that I am a polygamist, have others, will have others, and believe in umm, old fashioned discipline for wives (can that be mentioned here?). Nowadays I mention all this before the first kiss. And I don't kiss a woman on the lips unless I am intent on making her a wife.


BACK ON TOPIC:
(1) I am happy to be a wingman for any good man, young or old, looking for a bride or girlfriend here in Chiang Mai, and maybe some other places as I travel. Unspoiled young wives will likely come from less known towns, though, not Chiang Mai.

(2) I used to post on the forum of HappierAbroad.com, a site all about dating foreign women, and there were indeed some discussions there about where polygamy would fly. The Philippines was definitely recommended.

(3) On that HA forum, back in the day, I heartily defended marriage agencies, though the better ones do screen men as well as women, and I'm not sure whether a polyagmist will get through the vetting process. I would encourage men to try, though. One very moral Christian man in the business is Mark Davis (with his Ukrainian wife Anna), DreamConnections.com

Enough for now, cheers, God bless all of the men here!
 
Oh 2 more points
(1) marriage agencies are technically illegal in the Philippines, but the law is definitely not enforced in some areas. They just don't want abusive men taking advantage of ignorant women. The people welcome American husbands, and the people like to emigrate, and adapt well anywhere they go.

(2) My grandmother was umm "sold" as a "mail order bride" in return for ocean passage from the Soviet Union to America for her entire family. Maybe because I'm of Middle Eastern ancestry (Armenian) I don't see a thing wrong with that. Paying a bride-price seems romantic to us.

(footnote: before she made the journey, she fell in love with my heroic but penniless grandfather. So her dad switched girls, giving the away another daughter instead. Kind of like the story of Rachel and Leah in the Bible, the old switcheroo!!)
 
Welcome back DealChief. And yes, we do have a forum - have had one for years (you posted on it way back in 2008, see http://www.biblicalfamilies.org/forum/threads/southern-california.8732/ ), but it's just had a major upgrade and is even more functional now. I must point out that your approach to marriage does differ somewhat from that most of us would consider appropriate, see RevGill's response on that old thread. Good to have you around though, so welcome back.
 
FH is far more diplomatic than I am. I would say that the phrasing "differ somewhat from what most of us would consider appropriate" is an extreme understatement.
 
FH is far more diplomatic than I am. I would say that the phrasing "differ somewhat from what most of us would consider appropriate" is an extreme understatement.

If there's something I said that runs against modern American cultural norms, well, we're all different. Not everyone follows the modernist crowd. As a matter of fact I've left the USA, and won't be returning unless there is vigorous regime change. So if something I said that made you uncomfortable, because it seemed out-of-step with the PC crowd, well, could be. No worries, I still wish you well.

On the other hand, if there's something I said that violates God's Law, then there's no need at all to be coy about it.. Feel free to step up and say so.
 
Welcome back DealChief. And yes, we do have a forum - have had one for years (you posted on it way back in 2008, see http://www.biblicalfamilies.org/forum/threads/southern-california.8732/ ), but it's just had a major upgrade and is even more functional now. I must point out that your approach to marriage does differ somewhat from that most of us would consider appropriate, see RevGill's response on that old thread. Good to have you around though, so welcome back.

Sorry, I had forgotten that I posted here. (Obviously!)

I really don't see how my "approach" differs from any other polygamist who is looking for wives. Perhaps you could enlighten me about what specifically people here might be uncomfortable with? This is a serious question.

Anyway, good to be back.

PS I did follow your link and respond on the old thread. Thanks.
 
Ok, I can be blunt.

Anyone willing to engage the occasional brain cell can see the vast differences between our interpretation of what being a husband is and yours. We don't see it as something we "take a shot" at for our own pleasure, we don't believe in beating women (no matter how coyly you may want to phrase it) and we don't believe in a fair swath of other things you very obviously do. Any implied misconceptions you may have about the differences in what we believe and what you believe and what you believe are obvious to the point of being ludicrous. I, speaking as staff mind you, am left to conclude that your intentions in being here are less than honorable. Either looking for people who share your misogynistic viewpoint who will flock to your rhetoric, trolling for your own amusement, or actively seeking to discredit us and our site as a place where people can safely seek actual understanding of Biblical principles. I'm willing to give you the benefit of the doubt and assume it's more the first two. Reading back through your old posts, I will phrase it clearly as possible.

On this forum we do not tolerate the following:
-Being blatantly insulting - Referring claims that you've "forgotten" more about the Bible than someone else ever knew, or asserting your "obvious" superiority in understanding): "Let another praise you, and not your own mouth; a stranger, and not your own lips."

-Actively promoting or supporting abuse or mistreatment of anyone : "In this same way, husbands ought to love their wives as their own bodies. He who loves his wife loves himself. 29 After all, no one ever hated their own body, but they feed and care for their body, just as Christ does the church— 30 for we are members of his body."

-Seeking to or causing discord above the scope of normal and healthy debate: 3 It is to one’s honor to avoid strife, but every fool is quick to quarrel.
 
"Anyone willing to engage the occasional brain cell can see the vast differences between our interpretation of what being a husband is and yours. We don't see it as something we "take a shot" at for our own pleasure"

You infer a lot of things. I told a woman I was a polygamist before I even kissed her lips, told her all about me good and bad, moved her and her kid in, took care of them, then the relationship ended after three months. And you take a condescending posture over that, why, because I enjoyed sex with her? And having a woman and child under my roof for the first time in many years? Is there something wrong with me...or is it you?
 
I would like to apologize for the fairly reactive and emotional tone of my response. I would simply change it but it *has* been read so that would be unfair. The content is accurate, however I had some poor word choices, specifically the "occasional brain cell" comment. That was me reacting to the implication that philosophical differences weren't patently obvious, and was uncalled for. My overall tone could certainly have been less combative, while still conveying strong disagreement.
 
"we don't believe in beating women (no matter how coyly you may want to phrase it)"

Your indignation has the ring of sincerity. I believe you are sincere.

On the other hand, Genesis chapter 2 makes clear that the Man will "lord it over" the woman, or more accurately, "treat (her) like a slave".

So it seems Scripture does not back up what you believe, no matter how sincerely felt.

I did NOT come here to make an issue of domestic discipline. I understand that that is NOT what this site is about. I only came to absorb practical tips on how to make polygamy work in the modern world, and ideally to make friends.

I won't bring discipline up again if you won't.
 
I would like to apologize for the fairly reactive and emotional tone of my response. I would simply change it but it *has* been read so that would be unfair. The content is accurate, however I had some poor word choices, specifically the "occasional brain cell" comment. That was me reacting to the implication that philosophical differences weren't patently obvious, and was uncalled for. My overall tone could certainly have been less combative, while still conveying strong disagreement.

Well I DO have an occasional brain cell...

...occasionally


No problem if you go off, no big deal to me.
 
-Seeking to or causing discord above the scope of normal and healthy debate: 3 It is to one’s honor to avoid strife, but every fool is quick to quarrel.

I was attacked, and I replied.

I am not quick to quarrel.

I hope none of us are.

Perhaps I can leave it there?
 
To answer your original question:
I really don't see how my "approach" differs from any other polygamist who is looking for wives. Perhaps you could enlighten me about what specifically people here might be uncomfortable with? This is a serious question.
Your approach primarily differs from ours in that you present a long string of women you have had relationships with (two girlfriends in California in your original post, a brief "flirtation" in Mexico, a divorcee in Thailand, a current Californian woman you call a "wife"), none of which really sound like marriages. Scripture is clear that marriage is intended to be for life, and divorce is heavily restricted and intended to be very rare (e.g. Matthew 19:3-9). What you describe, in contrast, sounds like the string of casual relationships considered to be normal in modern Western secular culture, which you are justifying by labeling them "marriages".

You dismiss objections to your lifestyle by assuming that people only object because you don't follow "modern American cultural norms", and that's ok because you follow God's law instead. I find this hard to follow, because what the life you have described agrees exactly with "modern American cultural norms". The accepted secular culture promoted in American media is to have relationship after relationship, both monogamous and "plural" in a "player" sense, and that everyone else has to just accept this is ok. That's exactly what you're doing, just with different terminology.

You state that divorce is allowable "if they get bitter". Matthew 19:3-9 as cited above is very clear that divorce is limited only to adultery. Although there is some reasonable debate around the precise line to draw here, I have never heard a sound scriptural argument that divorce is allowable simply for bitterness. So what scriptural grounds do you have for this statement?

You also appear to see marriage as being simply about sex and babies ("And knocking boots and making babies, in a committed relationship, is what marriage IS. Period."). This is not what YHWH created Eve for. He stated "I will make him a helper comparable to him" (Genesis 2:18). Women were designed to help and support men in many different ways - and men were given the responsibility of protecting and caring for them. For instance, in Ephesians 5:22-33 we see that just as Christ shepherds and nourishes the Church, husbands are to to the same for their wives. Sex and babies occur within marriage, but are not what marriage is. Sex is just one of many aspects of marriage. In a true marriage a man takes true responsibility for his wives, far more than just having sex with them occasionally.

In summary, here we have a very solid and serious view of marriage. This view of marriage disagrees very strongly with current Western cultural norms, of casual relationships and easy divorce. The life you describe is basically a secular lifestyle labeled with scriptural terminology.

Our focus is on supporting people to ensure their few marriages are successful - we focus on marriage guidance, not matchmaking. Your focus appears to be on accepting divorce as ok and just looking for woman after woman to try in the hope of finding some that will stick around - you focus on different ways of meeting women. These two approaches could not be more different. This forum exists to support marriages, not to help men to find lots of women.
 
To answer your original question:

Your approach primarily differs from ours in that you present a long string of women you have had relationships with (two girlfriends in California in your original post, a brief "flirtation" in Mexico, a divorcee in Thailand, a current Californian woman you call a "wife"), none of which really sound like marriages.


Scripture is clear that marriage is intended to be for life, and divorce is heavily restricted and intended to be very rare (e.g. Matthew 19:3-9). What you describe, in contrast, sounds like the string of casual relationships considered to be normal in modern Western secular culture, which you are justifying by labeling them "marriages".

You dismiss objections to your lifestyle by assuming that people only object because you don't follow "modern American cultural norms", and that's ok because you follow God's law instead. I find this hard to follow, because what the life you have described agrees exactly with "modern American cultural norms". The accepted secular culture promoted in American media is to have relationship after relationship, both monogamous and "plural" in a "player" sense, and that everyone else has to just accept this is ok. That's exactly what you're doing, just with different terminology.

You state that divorce is allowable "if they get bitter". Matthew 19:3-9 as cited above is very clear that divorce is limited only to adultery. Although there is some reasonable debate around the precise line to draw here, I have never heard a sound scriptural argument that divorce is allowable simply for bitterness. So what scriptural grounds do you have for this statement?

You also appear to see marriage as being simply about sex and babies ("And knocking boots and making babies, in a committed relationship, is what marriage IS. Period."). This is not what YHWH created Eve for. He stated "I will make him a helper comparable to him" (Genesis 2:18). Women were designed to help and support men in many different ways - and men were given the responsibility of protecting and caring for them. For instance, in Ephesians 5:22-33 we see that just as Christ shepherds and nourishes the Church, husbands are to to the same for their wives. Sex and babies occur within marriage, but are not what marriage is. Sex is just one of many aspects of marriage. In a true marriage a man takes true responsibility for his wives, far more than just having sex with them occasionally.

In summary, here we have a very solid and serious view of marriage. This view of marriage disagrees very strongly with current Western cultural norms, of casual relationships and easy divorce. The life you describe is basically a secular lifestyle labeled with scriptural terminology.

Our focus is on supporting people to ensure their few marriages are successful - we focus on marriage guidance, not matchmaking. Your focus appears to be on accepting divorce as ok and just looking for woman after woman to try in the hope of finding some that will stick around - you focus on different ways of meeting women. These two approaches could not be more different. This forum exists to support marriages, not to help men to find lots of women.

Thanks for a thoughtful reply.

The "bitter" woman had become violent, and disobedient. That's constructive desertion. I didn't leave lightly. I didn't think anyone here wanted to hear the full melodrama. But maybe that's what you guys want? She did this, she did that, so sanhedrin-like you can judge?

And the lesson learned, is avoid divorcees in the future. That's my personal choice, not advice to all mankind.

Really odd that my past is being dissected like this. If I was married to one woman from age 19 to age 42, and raised four children with her, does that make me a good person or a bad person?

If relationships with other great women ended because I refused to commit to monogamy (which I don't believe in as an obligation, and don't think is right for me personally), does that make me good or bad?

It's really odd to find self-proclaimed polygamists complaining I have had too many women or whatever. Yes, I took vows, in fact I insisted on it in a couple of cases. But in the case of divorcees with their own kid(s) and house and established lifestyle, moving in together isn't easy or trivial. I'm surprised to find that I am the only fellow here who has faced this.

Never had a problem because you wouldn't promise monogamy? Unh-hunh.

Never had a problem when you started actually practicing polygamy? Unh-hunh.

Yes, the Mexican gal in Cali is "estranged". We had split up, I decided never to have sex again without marriage, she begged to come back, finally I took her back with a private and beautiful wedding ceremony, But we still didn't get along. And she wanted to tell only her girlfriends about our vows, but keep it secret from her kids. When I left Cali for Mexico there had been no sex for two years. (She has visited me since.)

Tell me what I did wrong.

My concept of functioning polygamy is how it worked under the Law, and how it works today in Black Africa. Wives equal, living in proximity, relationships above board. I found that real hard to accomplish in California, so I left. Was I wrong?

If I don't get it done, I don't get it done. But I will not be promising monogamy any more than I will be accepting any other unnecessary bondage.

I am not claiming to be the example of successful polygamy. My interest in this site is to learn how it can work. How do you get the women to accept it, to accept a new one coming in, to befriend each other, etc.

Let's see, other points. Yes woman is a helpmeet. A servant. I have had women cut my toenails, and they always cook for me, shop, etc. Living alone now is a real chore, I'm spoiled. So I agree with you on that point.

And yes it's good to have someone to talk to, to flesh out thoughts. I greatly prefer a smart woman, believe me.

But I don't take a mystical view of marriage. Of course you lay your life down if needed, people were doing that for thousands of years before Paul included it in a sermon. Marriage dates from Adam and Eve, not from Paul's letters. In my view marriage is not a "sacrament", it is what people do and have done and always will do. Bond. The wedding at Cana, or of Solomon and the Shulamite were just as real as any Christian marriage made today. Does it help to have the Holy Spirit there with you? Yup, sure does, I've experienced it, I believe in it. But a marriage is not as if one is entering a monastery. It is a committed relationship between two people, yes, master and servant, involving dedication, closeness, and physical pleasure, without restriction.

I guess the bottom line is, if this site is about getting me to conform to modern-era American-evangelical idealism, then I should leave. I understand the evangelical Protestant viewpoint that Christian marriages are qualitatively different, etc. requiring "my utmost for His highest"... I don't buy it.

If the site is about supporting Christian polygamists at a practical level, then I'd like to stay.
 
We're not dissecting your past in order to judge you, everyone has a past and all of us have made mistakes also and may have had failures that are not entirely our own fault. However, in understanding where you are coming from, I am using both the statements you have made about your own beliefs and the past you have chosen to reveal also. Not judging so much as drawing on everything at hand in an attempt to understand your perspective so we can then have a rational discussion.

We're certainly not here to promote "modern-era American-evangelical idealism"! By the way I actually live closer to Thailand than I do to America. The church establishment has a pile of stuff wrong. But they've got a lot right also. We have to be careful to not throw the baby out with the bathwater. We should take the traditions handed down to us, use scripture to discern what is right and wrong, discard the wrong and retain the right.

To clarify further, in your opinion, what obligations does a husband have to his wives?
 
The life you describe is basically a secular lifestyle labeled with scriptural terminology.

I can see why you would say that.
Yet I make it clear in advance that I intend to keep them, I take vows or pray over the relationship, we took mutual vows in two cases, and I give each relationship my best shot, to try to make each one permanent. All that seems quite different from modern secular culture doesnt it?
Put it this way: if M. or L. or S. or O. had accepted polygamy (as they promised they would before we got together), and one or more of those relationships had lasted decades instead of years, would you then call that secular? Or would you now accept it as authentic marriage?

Our focus is on supporting people to ensure their few marriages are successful - we focus on marriage guidance, not matchmaking. Your focus appears to be on accepting divorce as ok and just looking for woman after woman to try in the hope of finding some that will stick around - you focus on different ways of meeting women. These two approaches could not be more different. This forum exists to support marriages, not to help men to find lots of women.

I certainly didn't expect to come here for matchmaking. What would make you think I did?

Yes, as an available man, I do talk to women if they are attractive and seem receptive. Don't you?

On divorce, that's a brutal reality, like amputation, one I've been forced to accept. But did I invent divorce? No.

Am I the only divorced man here? I bet not.

Yes, I hope to find women who will stick around. Same as you. I've even thought of marrying two women at once (friends) so there would be no possible issue with trying to coerce me into monogamy in the future. Overall, my approach is exactly the same as everyone else's. Try to marry only women who can accept who I am.

As far as your mission of supporting marriage, well yeah, I could relate a personal circumstance related to the Cali girl and jealousy, and solicit advice or prayers. But I don't think this thread is the place for it.

It's sort of chicken and egg. In receiving this site's emails occasionally, describing various meetups, I have thought, when I have a good steady woman who is comfortable with PM, I should take her, even her kids, so they see it's all OK. But note, I can't really take advantage of those meetups etc till I actually have someone. And now the people on this very site are suspicious because I might be motivated to get a wife? There is some underlying catch 22 here, something unspoken.
 
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