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"Makes her commit adultery"

aineo

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I have been reading from Dr. William Luck's book, "Systematic Biblical Ethics 2013", and I found his analysis of Matthew 5:31-32 on pages 232-238 fascinating.

For reference:

Matthew 5:31 “It was said, ‘Whoever sends his wife away, let him give her A certificate of divorce’; 32 but I say to you that everyone who divorces his wife, except for the reason of unchastity, makes her commit adultery; and whoever marries a divorced woman commits adultery.

Matthew 19:8 He said to them, “Because of your hardness of heart Moses permitted you to divorce your wives; but from the beginning it has not been this way. 9 And I say to you, whoever divorces his wife, except for immorality, and marries another woman commits adultery.”

Deuteronomy 24: 1 When a man takes a wife and marries her, and it happens that she finds no favor in his eyes because he has found some indecency in her, and he writes her a certificate of divorce and puts it in her hand and sends her out from his house, 2 and she leaves his house and goes and becomes another man’s wife, 3 and if the latter husband turns against her and writes her a certificate of divorce and puts it in her hand and sends her out of his house, or if the latter husband dies who took her to be his wife, 4 then her former husband who sent her away is not allowed to take her again to be his wife, since she has been defiled; for that is an abomination before the Lord, and you shall not bring sin on the land which the Lord your God gives you as an inheritance.

Dr. Luck states the following, "She is his property, but not a chattel and therefore he has no moral right unilaterally to put her away. Jesus’ interpretation of the regulation was believed by the Pharisees to be in disagreement with Moses in Deut. 24:1, but, in fact it is not. In the second part of verse 32 Jesus teaches that a man must not disrupt another person’s marriage in order to lay claim to the divorced woman. She is the property of another man. He has no business stealing her by means of divorce especially misusing the Mosaic permission."

He then goes on to make the point that "and marries another" has confused Bible students for years. It is not in conflict with polygyny, as we know, but it is, instead, reinforcing Exodus 21:10:

Exodus 21:10 If he takes to himself another woman, he may not reduce her food, her clothing, or her conjugal rights.

In other words, if a man cannot or does not want to afford two wives, he cannot divorce the first in order to take on another.

The fascinating thing to me about Dr. Luck's teaching here is what he states about the phrase, "makes her commit adultery". This is the Greek word μοιχευθηναι. So I don't misrepresent something, I will cut and paste directly from Dr. Luck's writings on this:

"That word is the aorist, passive or middle infinitive of the word for “commits adultery.” This means that the action is definite, either done against her by someone else (passive voice) or by her against herself (middle‐intensive voice: “her herself to commit adultery” or reflexive‐middle voice: “causes her to commit adultery against herself”).

Wherein then comes the traditional interpretation which is active (“to commit adultery”)? Some have mistakenly identified the verb as a deponent, a verb which, in its history, has deposed its active form and borrowed the passive/middle form while retaining its active voice. However, grammarians inform us that this never happens in the aorist tense, and even if it did, the whole concept of deponent verbs is under reconsideration insofar as the deposing of the active form should not in itself also depose the passive/middle voices. We should at least have three choices. But, I say, it’s an aorist, so that’s a battle we don’t have to fight.

So then we have to decide if the verb is passive or middle voice. Both are possible, but the middle doesn’t make any sense. To say that the woman commits adultery against herself or that she herself commits it is counter to the obvious direction of the saying, which is to hold the man accountable for what happens to her. Simply put, the middle voice would seem to exonerate the man and place the blame on the woman, and that’s not what Jesus is doing. Additionally, one must remember that no remarriage, of either party is even mentioned in the first saying. It is also not proper to borrow a remarriage from the second saying. In all coupled saying of Jesus, they are made up of independent sayings. So whatever adultery is committed in 5:32a, it happens just with the elements provided.

The only remaining option, the passive is difficult to word. The great Greek teacher, RCH Lenski (The Interpretation of St Matthew’s Gospel) opted for “causes her to be stigmatized as an adulteress,” while admitting that a better translation might be found. He thought that the reason Jesus used this somewhat odd way of speaking was to emphasize that the woman, though guiltless was being made to look like she was the guilty party. Perhaps. But two other translations present themselves: “causes her to be adulterized” or “causes her to experience adultery.” The first is my option, the second that of my friend Dr. Keith Sherlin. Mine is a bit more literal than his, but either will do. But why didn’t Jesus just say it as He did elsewhere: “he commits adultery against her.” (Matt. 19/Mark 10; Luke 16)?

My surmise is that the odd form is intentional to make us stop and think about what is being said to happen. That, after all, is the function of figures of speech, of which this is sort of one. This is the first time that “adultery” had been used of a man divorcing his wife. It is 180 degrees from what the Pharisees thought it meant. They supposed that the divorce in Deut. 24:1 was the man’s right. They disagreed over what that gave him that right, but that it was his right they firmly believed. Jesus is saying that the divorce grounds in Deut. 24:1 was inadequate... insufficient...that the man taking advantage of it was immoral...guilty of a breach of the Seventh Commandment by failing to provide what he had promised in the original contract...and of the Eighth, insofar as in doing so he reduced his wife to a piece of chattel property that he could discard at will. Malachi had called such action treachery (Mal. 2:14, 16). Jesus merely used another offense term for it. And in doing so we have the final connotational element of the definition of adultery: breach of covenant, where the promise breached was an essential one to the covenant of marriage. The woman’s promise was to be exclusive, while the man’s was to provide. Either promise could be breached. Either was adultery.

Unilateral divorce, that is, divorce without the other person having committed a covenant‐breaching act, constitutes the act of adultery, and anyone participating in such a divorce could be charged with that offense. This is underscored by the second saying of Jesus, where, again, the man is guilty of adultery by marrying a woman divorced. Though here again we come upon questionable translation. This time the key term is for divorce itself: απολελυμενην, is a perfect passive or middle participle. Being perfect, it is an action which is completed in the past. As a participle it is a “verbal noun.” The difficulty is in whether or not it is passive or middle voice. Most translations adopt the passive. She has been divorced by someone else. Here borrowing meaning from the prior saying is as unacceptable as was to borrow meaning from the second saying for the first. They are independent...each saying must stand on its own.

One thing is similar, between the saying, however: the fact that the divorce is presumed to be unjust and covenant‐breaking. But, if that is the case, why hold the second husband accountable for adultery? If her marriage is over, then she has the right to remarry...right? Yes. But that is not the point of the charge of adultery. Here again the divorce is the sin, but the divorcing should be seen to be initiated by the woman (without grounds) at the instigation of the second husband.

Many have avoided this interpretation based upon the infrequency of women divorcing their husbands in Jesus’ day. However, that general truth overlooks the particular fact of the most notable divorce in the days of Jesus: Herodias’s divorce of Herod Philip, was instigated by Herod Antipas, so that she might marry him. Herod Antipas had himself recently divorced his long time wife, Phasaelis, the daughter of Aretas IV, the King of Petra, so that he could marry Herodias. (Josephus Antiquities of the Jews. Book 18, chapter 5, part 1) History has not recorded the specific grounds alleged by Herod of Phasaelis, but the Herods were not known for citing trivial grounds to justify their evil actions. Aretas is said to have considered the divorce an insult to his daughter, and the sources say that Phasaelis “fled” Israel. All of this is consistent with a charge of adultery. Without a doubt, Phasaelis was innocent of any wrongdoing though Herod alleged that she was guilty of something justifying her removal. In view of that, we can see how Herod was guilty of what he alleged she had done: been unfaithful to his vows.

This is the thrust of Lenski’s interpretative translation of the first saying. Also without a doubt, this same Herod was also guilty of stealing his half‐brother’s wife by instigating her divorce, which she initiated. Said Josephus:

“This man ventured to talk to her about a marriage between them; which address, when she admitted, an agreement was made for her to change her habitation, and come to him as soon as he should return from Rome:...” (Josephus Antiquities 18.5.1)

“Herodias took upon her to confound the laws of our country, and divorced herself from her husband while he was alive, and was married to Herod Antipas.”(Josephus Antiquities 18.5.4)

I do not have the Greek of the Antiquities, but “divorced herself” would be a middle translation of 5:32b. Thus Herod fits very precisely the man who was guilty of the separate offenses noted by Jesus in Matt. 5:32. His actions also exactly fit both sides of the offenses against the 8th Commandment: abuse of one’s own property to the hurt of another person, and theft via conspiracy to defraud Herod Philip.

The Pharisees had not condemned Herod as Jesus did in the Sermon and as John the Baptist had done according to the Gospels. John had lost his head by standing up to Herod and rebuking him for his incestuous marriage to Herodias (marriage to the brother’s wife when the brother was still alive was considered incest according to Leviticus 18). But the text of the gospels mentions that John condemned him for his other sins as well. That surely would have included his unjust divorce of his own wife and his complicity in the divorce of Philip by Herodias...exactly the sins mentioned by Jesus in the Sermon.
Jesus confronted the Pharisees over the matter in Luke 16. Thereafter speaking of the Pharisees as being unjust stewards of God’s Law by giving God’s creditors a “cut rate,” He pitches into them by saying that they were just such unjust stewards, and He identified an example: John the Baptist (mentioned in the context). Jesus repeats His teaching from the Sermon that it was adultery for a man to divorce his wife (in order to marry someone else), and adultery for a man to marry a woman whom he had gotten to unjustly divorce her husband...both Herod’s sins.

The Pharisees regrouped on the subject and came at Jesus in the event recorded in Matthew 19 and Mark 10. They asked Jesus if it was lawful to divorce a woman on any ground. Note carefully that they said, lawfully. That limits the discussion to non‐disciplinary divorce, i.e., Deut. 24:1. When Jesus cites the creation teaching that a man who marries commits himself to that new family and God stands behind that commitment to hold him accountable for it, the Pharisees pounced on Him as denying the meaning of erwat dabar in Deuteronomy 24:1. Jesus simply replies that that law was designed to deal with hard‐hearted husbands, and that from the beginning all the way through history up to that moment, God was not trying to give man moral permission unilaterally to end his marriage. Only if the woman committed adultery did the man have grounds...but of course everyone knew that Deut. 24:1 wasn’t dealing with the woman having broken her vows. The schools of both Hillel and Shammai knew that erwat daber couldn’t mean adultery/fornication, because Leviticus 20:10 penalized such sin with execution—in the Law. Thus Jesus tells them that whatever erwat dabar means it isn’t moral ground for divorce, but rendered the man guilty of adultery. God hadn’t given that regulation to empower men, but to protect women, just as He had Exodus 21:11.

Jesus’ disciples were shocked that men didn’t have a right to end their marriages on any basis other than adultery. They say that it’s better not to get married if marriage is that binding. Jesus rebukes them by saying in effect that the rules of marriage aren’t for people who can’t marry or don’t want to. Those need not listen to his rules.

Incidentally, Mark 10 includes the reversal clause which makes it clear that Jesus is speaking of the woman unjustly divorcing her husband, rather than simply being divorced.

To summarize, Jesus condemns unjust divorce as adulterous...just as God had spoken through the prophet Malachi (chapter 2). The teaching does not discuss disciplinary divorce, but deals only with treacherous putting away. It primarily speaks to male treachery, but mentions female treachery as well. Just divorce is where the partner has broken their vows and has refused repent. Thus Joseph (Matthew 1) sought to put Mary away, since she seemed to have undeniably been guilty of fornication (she was pregnant) but denied wrongdoing. God had to clarify the issues to Joseph in order to block an unjust divorce in that case."

Thoughts?
 
Unilateral divorce, that is, divorce without the other person having committed a covenant‐breaching act, constitutes the act of adultery, and anyone participating in such a divorce could be charged with that offense.

Here we have a problem that reflects throughout. In order to have the act of adultery you must have a married woman. Period. Participating in an unjust act of divorce is not actually a divorce because God will not recognize an unjust or illegitimate divorce. Thus, the woman who is so "divorced" and has sex with another man is still married so they are committing adultery.

She is committing adultery with a man who is her husband because God will not honor an illegitimate divorce. What Jesus said in Matthew 19 about the husband committing adultery is simple: he marries "another" woman who is likewise illegitimately divorced, which means she's still married.

Consider carefully the requirements of Leviticus 21:13-15. This is one of those passages in which God explains why the regulation exists. "that he might not profane his offspring." That was also the context for God's comments in Malachi 2. We know that a bastard (illegitimate child) is not to enter the assembly of the Lord down to the 10th generation. What if the widow's husband was still alive? What if the divorced woman's divorce was illegitimate? Then it's a case of adultery and all the offspring down to the 10th generation are profaned.

And just to be practical about this, what happens when the older man marries the young woman because her father said that's the way it will be? And she isn't attracted to him at all? And one day she meets a man she's highly attracted to? Even if she doesn't commit adultery, imagine living with such a woman for years and getting sick of it. Moses gave them permission to ditch her. And then came all the teachings about divorce so you could marry a divorced woman who simply didn't get along with her first husband. It gave the idea of marrying a divorce' some legitimacy.

Yet, according to the standard of Christ, it is only the woman who has committed adultery who is legitimately divorced. In terms of Malachi, that was what the reference to Godly offspring was about.

There is this idea that a husband can commit adultery with another woman who is not married. According to Scripture, this is not possible. The ancient church imposed this doctrine on the church as part of its effort to make women the equals of men. The problem with this is nowhere can you find any prohibition on a man, any man, having sex with an eligible woman. Except 1st Corinthians 6:15-16, the prohibition on getting sex from prostitutes, which applies only to Christian man. Why only Christian men? For two reasons. First, only a Christian man can make the members of Christ one body with a prostitute. Second, if it did not apply only to Christian men (which the text clearly states) that prohibition would have been a violation of Deut. 4:2 and 12:32, by adding to the Law.

This is the context of those passages. Adultery requires a married woman. Therefore, when it says she commits adultery it means she's not legitimately divorced and they are still married. The woman who committed {porneia} and was divorced for it by her husband is legitimately divorced and able to remarry or have sex with men as she chooses. There is no prohibition on such activity because the divorce was legitimate.

Thus Joseph (Matthew 1) sought to put Mary away, since she seemed to have undeniably been guilty of fornication (she was pregnant) but denied wrongdoing. God had to clarify the issues to Joseph in order to block an unjust divorce in that case."

No, it was not "fornication" at all, it would have been a case of adultery. Fornication is an English word and with respect to any violation of Scripture, at best it only describes sex with a prostitute. Joseph could have had Mary stoned to death for being an adulteress. He sought instead to put her away. Two teenage kids who have sex in the back of a car are not fornicating. They are not having premarital sex. If she is a virgin it is the consummation of her marriage and it is marital sex. If she is not a virgin she is committing adultery because she was married to the man who took her virginity. The modern idea of fornication and pre-marital sex was dreamed up by the church when they threw out the standard of Genesis 2:24 and claimed that only a ceremony and the consent of the woman made the couple married. But that's not what Genesis 2:24 says.

The real problem here, the elephant in the room that nobody wants to mention, is that the ancient church demanded the same standards of sexual morality from both men and women. Contrary to Scripture.

A man may have more than one wife at the same time. A woman can only have one husband at a time.

If a husband has sex with the virgin babysitter he has another wife (Genesis 2:24). If her father decides to annul the marriage then he doesn't get to keep her (Numbers 30:5; Exodus 22:17). If the husband has sex with the widow down the street he's done nothing wrong and has not sinned (there is no prohibition). However, if the wife has sex with any man other than her husband she has committed adultery.

If a man lies with a man as with a woman it is an abomination and a death-penalty offense. If a woman lies with a woman, nothing. Considering the presumption of Leviticus 18:17-18 is that women in poly marriages will at least possibly have sexual contact, the only way women with women is wrong is if it's incest. Romans 1:26 isn't talking about sex, it's talking about women who gave up the natural function of women. Unless Eve was created to be Adam's sex toy and the purpose of women it to provide men with sex.

The man is to rule the wife (Genesis 3:16) and hold her accountable (Numbers 30) while the wife is to submit to her husband in everything (Ephesians 5:22-24)

A virgin has no agency and she can be raped into marriage against her will and over her objections (Deuteronomy 22:28-29). A woman who is a widow or legitimately divorced woman has agency and she can have sex with eligible men and not be in sin (there is no prohibition) unless it violates her conscience (Romans 14:23; James 4:17). She is not married until she agrees to be married (Numbers 30:9, 1st Corinthians 7:39). For a man sex is the act of marriage and for a man, the act of penetrating a woman is his consent and commitment to marry her.

The prevailing attitude today is that if a husband has sex with ANY woman outside his marriage, he has committed the sin of adultery.

THIS is the doctrine that is being protected here and it's a fundamental assumption (a wrong one) the authors assume to be true. Which results in the tortured interpretation that an unjust divorce is the offense of adultery for the man. No, he hasn't committed adultery until he marries "another" illegitimately divorced woman (just like the one he illegitimately divorced) because when he does he commits adultery with another man's wife.

Remember: only a married woman can commit adultery, along with the man who is not her husband.
 
I agree with the author's preference of translating the word as "adulterized" on the grounds that a prerequisite has been introduced, which will later be 'activated' when she takes another husband. (Something I regard as inevitable... given Paul's matter of fact treatment of what a godly widow under 60 will do if not re-married)
 
I don't want to go back down the sex is marriage rabbit hole, but that is the only place I have to disagree with you Eristophanes. Sex is marriage.

But divorcing a woman unjustly puts the sin on the man because he has done the most ungodlike act of being unjust and abandoning his wife.

As marriage and sex are a testament of Christ and the church, this literal perversion by the husband makes the woman's eventual sin his since she have never been in the situation. That woman appears to be free to remarry.
 
Zec, I think the problem here boils down to semantics and the emotional force some words have.

I've had some problems recently with semantics. I was at a funeral and met someone who doesn't violate any part of the incest statutes but is close enough that local folks would be dropping bricks in their shorts if they had any idea what was happening. Her family was on the younger side of my grandparents generation and she was the change-baby born when her mother was in her mid-forties. She's actually younger than me but part of my parents generation as the family goes. When I referred to her and her girlfriend as "tribal" or "part of the tribe" certain people gave me a hard time about it. The issue is the language has been hijacked away from the Bible and morality.

What is funnier to me than anything else is that "incest" takes a distant second place to "lesbian" in this context. Nobody tells me anything, but apparently the family has known for years that she's been with her "partner" and I didn't know. We all talked about it and for now she's not only a cousin but a lesbian and it can't get any safer than that.

In the vernacular of virtually everyone, "lesbian" or "bisexual" has a negative connotation. Yet, show me the prohibition. As a rule, they're still interested in men, they just haven't met any men they're attracted to that return the attraction. Instead of being like the vast majority of so-called heterosexual women, they are not interested in settling for a man they are not very attracted to. Instead of settling for a man, they settle for a woman, even though what they really want is a man they are truly attracted to that's attracted to them. And that's somehow wrong?

OTOH, how many married couples have had sex while the wive was menstruating? And what did God say about that? It's in the same category with adultery, idolatry and male homosexuality. So, I decided to give it a different name that didn't have any connotations one way or another. It's an attempt to describe a specific set of behaviors and attitudes that fall under the profile of what one would ordinarily call "lesbian."

It is the same when we talk about this. The word divorce is treated like a talisman that defies all Biblical definition and carries with it a meaning that does not agree with Scripture because of all the history associated with it.

Married. Let's just say they are married. I know what the Bible says, many disagree, but let's say they are married.

For those who are not in Christ, IF the woman commits adultery the man can write up her walking papers and give them to her. She is now shunned. Kicked out. The marriage is over. She is free to marry another man and try again. However, if she has not committed adultery, writing up her walking papers is fraudulent and she's just unjustly kicked out of the house because they are STILL MARRIED. There was a third and even worse action, which was kicking her out without even giving her any walking papers. However, the ONLY way to legitimately end the marriage is IF she committed adultery and he hands her her walking papers and kicks her out.

Now, as Christians we don't need to worry about this because we are in a special class. We are slaves, permanently. We are permanent bondservants of the Lord and the rules of His house say that married bondservants are forbidden from doing that sort of thing. The wife might separate herself, but she's still married. The husband must not shun his wife, even if she commits adultery. That was a command and there were no exceptions. Men DO NOT like that. Of course, Christ doesn't divorce us when we sin and marriage is a type of the relationship between Christ and the church.

So for those not in Christ (and I'm not sure why we are discussing them because this is a Christian forum) if the husband hands his wife fraudulent walking papers and shuns her it means nothing except that he's a prick. She is still married to him. However, those walking papers legally allow her to get "married" to someone else. Fraudulently, because she is still married. In which case she commits adultery. I'm not saying that God won't judge him for being a prick, but unless he bangs another man's wife he hasn't committed adultery. That's Romans 4:15 and 5:13.

The husband cannot be guilty of adultery until he bangs some other man's wife. Which fits perfectly with what Jesus said in Matthew.
 
In the vernacular of virtually everyone, "lesbian" or "bisexual" has a negative connotation. Yet, show me the prohibition. As a rule, they're still interested in men, they just haven't met any men they're attracted to that return the attraction. Instead of being like the vast majority of so-called heterosexual women, they are not interested in settling for a man they are not very attracted to. Instead of settling for a man, they settle for a woman, even though what they really want is a man they are truly attracted to that's attracted to them. And that's somehow wrong?

Actually I pretty much agree with you there. Well, not about the "virtually everyone" part, because I'd say only conservative followers of certain religions would give it a negative connotation. But the other part I agree with. When we studied homosexuality *almost* every instance in the bible was wholly focused on men lying with men, or "effeminate" men. There was one verse that spoke poorly of women who "exchanged their natural use", which could potentially be construed as condemning pure lesbianism, but really nothing I saw flat out prohibiting it. And a case could fairly easily be made that there is not even admonishment against female bisexuality, because then she is not "exchanging" her natural use, but is also attracted to females.

Now we've gone back and forth on the divorce thing plenty of times, and I'll relieve Samuel of his normal task of pointing out that just because something is sinful does not mean it *cannot* happen. It's *sinful* to murder, but people still murder. In the same way it's *sinful* to divorce for reasons other than adultery but people still do it. Just because a man gives a woman divorce papers without her cheating on him does not (by my interpretation) mean that they are still married, it just means that he has sinned in how he went about it. If it was a mutual decision, then they'd share that sin, but if it was just him, then I'd say it's on him. If she is the one to serve the divorce, then it's on her.

Either way, it is not an *unforgivable* sin. Unless I am mistaken, there is only one unforgivable sin mentioned in the entirety of scripture, and that is blaspheming against the holy spirit. Not saying people should intentionally sin just because they can be forgiven, but I don't think it's fair or in keeping with the heart of Jesus to hold a sin over them for the rest of their lives, especially if the sin wasn't actually theirs to begin with!
 
Just because a man gives a woman divorce papers without her cheating on him does not (by my interpretation) mean that they are still married, it just means that he has sinned in how he went about it.

Then please tell me how the wife could possibly have committed adultery in Matthew 5 or 19. Adultery is a specific crime that is listed in the Law. It involves a married woman having sex with a man who is not her husband. Where did the adultery come from if they were no longer married *even though* the divorce was fraudulent? God ratified a fraud?

That means I can sign some fraudulent papers giving me your house and the fraud should be ratified and I get your house? Preposterous! Without grounds there is no legitimate divorce. No legitimacy means they are still married, which the passages clearly indicate by the use of the word adultery.


Either way, it is not an *unforgivable* sin.

OK.... I've made it pretty clear that I am seeing a couple of rug-munchers so I guess I need to defend them. I truly wish you could face them in person. I guarantee you would never view members of the tribe the same way again. The ONLY verse you could possibly be referring to is Romans 1:26.

1. Paul could not have been extending a prohibition because that would have violated the Law. Deut. 4:2; 12:32.
2. Paul couldn't have been providing a prohibition applying to Christians. Context, people who do not love God, recognize God or worship God.
3. There is no mention of sex, what the women did was give up the "natural function of women" for the unnatural.
4. Why was Eve created? She was either to be a helpmeet, wife, mother and companion; or to be a sex-toy.
5. What is the degrading passion? I say it's feminism.

THERE IS NO SIN as long as they are still willing to get married to a man.
 
Well you completely de-ordered my response in order to justify being offended by something I happen to agree with you on.

The sin I referenced as being forgivable was DIVORCE, not lesbianism. I specifically said that I did not believe that lesbianism was a sin. I said there was only one verse that even spoke "poorly" of it, but no actual prohibition. I switched gears to responding to your views on divorce before I started talking of sin and forgiveness.
 
I usually agree with most of what you say Eristophanes but I have to take exception with this idea of Christians having to meet a different standard than non-believing Jews.
 
The sin I referenced as being forgivable was DIVORCE

You defined a man illegitimately divorcing his wife as adultery. I think we're in agreement that it is wrong for a man to illegitimately divorce his wife with no cause and God will judge. However, that isn't the sin of adultery. Then, speaking to another issue, what you said was this:

Either way, it is not an *unforgivable* sin.

There is no way to read that as not calling women-with-women a sin. Not an "unforgivable" sin, but a sin nonetheless. Scripture doesn't support that. I raise the point because this is part of the pattern of what the church did starting about 1500 years ago. Let God be true and every man a liar.

I didn't get offended at what you said. I was trying to use an analogy for Zec, with the semantics of how the words "lesbian" and "bisexual" carry very negative connotations even when God never said it was wrong. Likewise, the word "divorce" means things to people today that God never said. That was my entire point. People hear the word "lesbian" and assign an incorrect definition in moral terms. People hear the word "divorce" and do the exact same thing.

I usually agree with most of what you say Eristophanes but I have to take exception with this idea of Christians having to meet a different standard than non-believing Jews.

Non-believing Jews do not believe in their hearts and confess with their mouths that Jesus Christ is Lord. Christians do. Different standard that has to be met in order to become a Christian. And... oh yeah... now that you're a slave, your Master has some specific rules. His rules don't apply to others, they aren't part of His household.
 
There is no way to read that as not calling women-with-women a sin. Not an "unforgivable" sin, but a sin nonetheless. Scripture doesn't support that. I raise the point because this is part of the pattern of what the church did starting about 1500 years ago. Let God be true and every man a liar.

I didn't get offended at what you said. I was trying to use an analogy for Zec, with the semantics of how the words "lesbian" and "bisexual" carry very negative connotations even when God never said it was wrong. Likewise, the word "divorce" means things to people today that God never said. That was my entire point. People hear the word "lesbian" and assign an incorrect definition in moral terms. People hear the word "divorce" and do the exact same thing.

Actually there is a very easy way to read what I typed without it calling women-with-women a sin. That easy way is the specific way I typed it. Take a look back, it goes like this:

1st Paragraph: I agreed with you, except that I pointed out that it's not "virtually everyone" who sees a negative connotation. I broke down my own research on the subject and stated my findings that it was AT MOST frowned upon for a woman to be a lesbian, and not even that for a woman to be bisexual.

Then, and here's where I think the miscommunication came in, I started a new paragraph addressing a *different* topic from your post. You can tell I was switching topics because I first hit enter a couple times to make white space, then said this: "Now we've gone back and forth on the divorce thing plenty of times,", which indicated I was changing to the topic of divorce, which is not directly related to the topic of lesbian and bisexual women. You argued, as I understand it, that voluntary divorce for reasons other than adultery doesn't actually exist because it's against God's law. I argued, as others have in the past, that it does exist, it's just sinful to do so. *Then* I talked about sin being forgivable. The sin of improper divorce. I was only *supportive* of the not-sin nature of women-with-women, and likely the only other person besides you here who thinks so. That makes me boggle as to why you're trying to argue so vehemently that I'm calling it sin?
 
Non-believing Jews do not believe in their hearts and confess with their mouths that Jesus Christ is Lord. Christians do. Different standard that has to be met in order to become a Christian. And... oh yeah... now that you're a slave, your Master has some specific rules. His rules don't apply to others, they aren't part of His household.

So who does scripture apply to? Non-Jewish believers fall under a different system and presumably believing Jews would as well since they can't sacrifice any more. Regular non-believers of course don't have to obey scripture and while I would assume non-believing Jews would fall into that same category scripture has to be for some one or what's the point? So who is it for?
 
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