One of the many things I appreciate about BF is a generally more masculine group of men. More on that later; meanwhile check this out: http://www.nationalreview.com/article/439040/male-physical-decline-masculinity-threatened
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Manly men
- Thread starter andrew
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Read the article, interested to hear your thoughts before chiming in!
Thanks for sharing the article, Andrew. This is a topic that seems to crop up a lot in my life. I see UntoldGlory is waiting to chime in, but I am going to go ahead and share my thoughts.
I think the article touches on some great points, but the one I didn't see is the deliberate demasculating of the civilized male. Yes, our convenient life (i.e., 10-minute oil changes) play a big role, but not nearly as big of a role as our societies conscious effort to demasculate our young men. Combine this with men who are, in many cases, raised without a male influence, and you have a recipe for disaster.
So what do I mean by the deliberate demasculation of the civilized male? Our culture is pummeling us with a picture of the metrosexual as the 'normal' male, and the homosexual male as a strong viable alternative. One such example is clothing. Most young men today are scared to do anything physical for fear of messing up their stylized hair or designer clothing, and they wouldn't dare be seen in public in any sort of work clothes. To be clear, I am not opposed to someone dressing nice or fixing their hair, but when an inordinate amount of focus is on being pretty, manhood takes a backseat.
I went to college as an adult, and this hasn't been that long ago. One day one of the young men in front of me had bought a bottled soda, and it did not have a screw top. The poor child couldn't figure out how to open it. I finally leaned up to him (I was sitting behind him in theater-style seating), asked him for the bottle, put the lid on the edge of my metal framed chair, hit the top with my hand, and handed his open soda back to him. The rest of the class stared at me in open-mouthed amazement. Was this some major feat of manhood? NO! But what it was is proof to me that we have a virtually helpless generation of men who will be unable to function if their computer-based life ever ceases to exist.
One of the greatest compliments I have had on my boys, two of which are now adults and the third is nearly an adult, is to hear someone say, "Those boys are all boy, aren't they‽" I typically smile and agree. Yes, my boys have their own issues, no doubt about it, and they aren't like the boys of my generation in their day-to-day activities, but they also know how to be boys.
I can recall growing up, I visited my dad most every weekend - he and my mom were divorced. It was not uncommon for us to get up early on a Saturday morning, hitch a trailer up to the tractor, load up the chainsaw, a couple of splitting mauls, a few jugs of water and sandwiches, and we headed into the woods to cut wood. I fondly recall the smell of sawdust on my dad's insulated flannel shirt, and we all had on work gloves and boots, and we were prepared to work hard most of the day. Dad would cut the wood, and my brother and I would split it and load it in the trailer. To be honest, I have been sorely tempted to get a load of logs to split for exercise. I have nothing to burn them in except a fire pit, but I miss that kind of work.
It was unheard of to pay someone to change your oil, yet today I cannot hardly justify doing it on my own, especially when I have to find a way to get rid of the oil. All young men knew how to do a minor tune up on a car, and many could do much more. Hunting was common, and even though I never did much of it, I certainly spent my time shooting a gun. Summer jobs were plentiful, but they were picking tomatoes, bailing hay, mowing yards, or similar work, and it was uncommon for a young man to work in air conditioning.
There is so much to be said on this topic - I am eagerly awaiting the follow-up comment from Andrew and others.
By the way, if you aren't already familiar with it, there is a website that isn't perfect, but I sure do like many of the things it talks about called The Art of Manliness.
I think the article touches on some great points, but the one I didn't see is the deliberate demasculating of the civilized male. Yes, our convenient life (i.e., 10-minute oil changes) play a big role, but not nearly as big of a role as our societies conscious effort to demasculate our young men. Combine this with men who are, in many cases, raised without a male influence, and you have a recipe for disaster.
So what do I mean by the deliberate demasculation of the civilized male? Our culture is pummeling us with a picture of the metrosexual as the 'normal' male, and the homosexual male as a strong viable alternative. One such example is clothing. Most young men today are scared to do anything physical for fear of messing up their stylized hair or designer clothing, and they wouldn't dare be seen in public in any sort of work clothes. To be clear, I am not opposed to someone dressing nice or fixing their hair, but when an inordinate amount of focus is on being pretty, manhood takes a backseat.
I went to college as an adult, and this hasn't been that long ago. One day one of the young men in front of me had bought a bottled soda, and it did not have a screw top. The poor child couldn't figure out how to open it. I finally leaned up to him (I was sitting behind him in theater-style seating), asked him for the bottle, put the lid on the edge of my metal framed chair, hit the top with my hand, and handed his open soda back to him. The rest of the class stared at me in open-mouthed amazement. Was this some major feat of manhood? NO! But what it was is proof to me that we have a virtually helpless generation of men who will be unable to function if their computer-based life ever ceases to exist.
One of the greatest compliments I have had on my boys, two of which are now adults and the third is nearly an adult, is to hear someone say, "Those boys are all boy, aren't they‽" I typically smile and agree. Yes, my boys have their own issues, no doubt about it, and they aren't like the boys of my generation in their day-to-day activities, but they also know how to be boys.
I can recall growing up, I visited my dad most every weekend - he and my mom were divorced. It was not uncommon for us to get up early on a Saturday morning, hitch a trailer up to the tractor, load up the chainsaw, a couple of splitting mauls, a few jugs of water and sandwiches, and we headed into the woods to cut wood. I fondly recall the smell of sawdust on my dad's insulated flannel shirt, and we all had on work gloves and boots, and we were prepared to work hard most of the day. Dad would cut the wood, and my brother and I would split it and load it in the trailer. To be honest, I have been sorely tempted to get a load of logs to split for exercise. I have nothing to burn them in except a fire pit, but I miss that kind of work.
It was unheard of to pay someone to change your oil, yet today I cannot hardly justify doing it on my own, especially when I have to find a way to get rid of the oil. All young men knew how to do a minor tune up on a car, and many could do much more. Hunting was common, and even though I never did much of it, I certainly spent my time shooting a gun. Summer jobs were plentiful, but they were picking tomatoes, bailing hay, mowing yards, or similar work, and it was uncommon for a young man to work in air conditioning.
There is so much to be said on this topic - I am eagerly awaiting the follow-up comment from Andrew and others.
By the way, if you aren't already familiar with it, there is a website that isn't perfect, but I sure do like many of the things it talks about called The Art of Manliness.
In our mainstream church lady group, I frequently hear women woefully agree that if only their husbands would just vacuum or do the dishes then their wifely duties would be more forthcoming.
Wha?? I almost laugh out loud. Maybe afterwards you could get a mani/pedi together. Yeahhh. This world has gone crazy.
My sister complains about the virility of her men but she chooses these metrosexual musician types. They make her gourmet dinners and are sensitive to her feeeelings.
It's strange because our parents exemplify traditional roles. Her birth certificate cites Dad's occupation as lumberjack. She adores him. Where's the disconnect?
Speaking of lumberjacks, there's few sounds more pleasing to hear than a chainsaw zinging through the woods. And probably no sight more thrilling to me than the raw power of my husband splitting firewood.
Maybe my sister's boyfriend's lasagna is lovely. But will his cooking skills save them when the zombies arrive?
There is safety and security in clearly defined roles.
Wha?? I almost laugh out loud. Maybe afterwards you could get a mani/pedi together. Yeahhh. This world has gone crazy.
My sister complains about the virility of her men but she chooses these metrosexual musician types. They make her gourmet dinners and are sensitive to her feeeelings.
It's strange because our parents exemplify traditional roles. Her birth certificate cites Dad's occupation as lumberjack. She adores him. Where's the disconnect?
Speaking of lumberjacks, there's few sounds more pleasing to hear than a chainsaw zinging through the woods. And probably no sight more thrilling to me than the raw power of my husband splitting firewood.
Maybe my sister's boyfriend's lasagna is lovely. But will his cooking skills save them when the zombies arrive?
There is safety and security in clearly defined roles.
Preach it, wind.
I have been seeing a series of articles about how young people aren't having sex either. I imagine the two phenomena are related.
Windblown, well said. Though i think a man can still be manly if he can make good lasagna, the general idea of our world is that man and women should deny their identity or nature, and become like the other. I always think that feminism is very strange, it doesn;t value the feminin, it tells us that the feminin is of lesser value and that we, women only count when we become like men. Reading the link andrew posted, the men have to deal with a similar issue.
Manly men remind society of the God they're trying to forget, so they have to be neutered and subjugated. God help the man with some dignity and bearing who winds up in our family law system.
I've seen men put on an act, trying to appear dumb and beat down so they don't inadvertently anger the court.
I've seen men put on an act, trying to appear dumb and beat down so they don't inadvertently anger the court.
Ok, so unsurprisingly I have a *slightly* different view, not horribly different mind you, but different.
First, what we agree on. I agree that men are "losing their edge". They can't fix things, build things, fight things, or generally be useful. Though I would expand that to saying "people" are losing their edge. Your average American 18-20 year old has no useful skills. They can at best recite some facts deemed important on an end of year test, but they cannot run a household. Overall I believe gender neutralization is in fact a big part of this, and the shift further away from being a country of producers and becoming a country of consumers.
Ok, now the stuff I tend to disagree with.
I am a man. I do manly things like use large tools to lift broken 200,000 lb aircraft off the ground and fix them using hammers that weigh more than mid-sized children. I craft useful things out of leather, wood, and metal. I study and practice the arts of violence, physically and mentally preparing myself so I can defend my family with hand or blade or arrow or bullet. I put on a uniform and cross the oceans to defend the rights and freedoms of everyone else's family in this country. I rewire electrical circuits in houses and tear apart broken things to make them whole again and demolish basements so that I can build them anew in the image I desire. I can drive trucks and cranes and bulldozers and all manner of steel beasts. I can build fires and survive in the woods and hunt and fish and ride horses and teach myself to do all manner of things that I don't already know how to do.
I don't say any of that to brag, I say it to set the stage for the next bit. I also play music, and sing, and cook food, and I most certainly discuss feelings, oftentimes at great length. I don't hesitate to help with things around the house, it's not expected of me, but why not, especially if I have some decent time off work. I'll be silly, or dance, or basically do whatever I pretty much feel like because I am I man and I could give a rat's tail if what I do doesn't fit into what someone's idea of a "man" is. Being a man doesn't mean I have to me an emotionally stunted Neanderthal who is confused or angered by people having emotions. It doesn't mean I shouldn't be comfortable going to a place to get my hair cut that has "salon" in the title. You ever have a shoulder massage and hot towel service with your haircut? Feels pretty darn nice. And being a man doesn't mean that I have to confront every problem with brute force. I have many tools in my toolbox, brute force is one, but so is tact, diplomacy, empathy, love, grace, humility, humor. When all you have is a hammer, every problem looks like a nail.
I adore femininity. I love when a woman is a woman and not ashamed of that. But why can't a woman be capable? Why would it threaten my manhood if a woman was a better shot than me? Ideally I will always protect my own, but I can't be with my family 24/7. Should my wife or family be put in danger while I am not with them, I want her to crush his throat, or put two to the chest, not squeal and faint. My wife tends the home, she cuts grass and digs in soil and is strong and capable. She is my help meet. When I am gone serving my country do I want the home to fall apart? No. I want a woman who is strong and capable. Is a woman not a woman if she can fix a car? Is she not a woman if she can hunt game build things? I think many times women feel the need to ignore or supress their femininity in order to pursue certain career fields because of the thugs masquerading as men they work with. Or because of the shrews that call themselves their fellow women.
Is anyone familiar with the show Firefly? I am reminded of the character Kaylee. Yes it's a show, but I know women who manage to be strong, accomplished, and powerful while still remaining very feminine, but this character is fairly perfect as an example. Kaylee is all woman. She's sweet and pretty and wants to be pursued and desired, she loves a pretty dress. Yet she's normally in coveralls, crawling around an engine, trying to keep the ship going.
My point is that truly makes us masculine and feminine are less about the activities we do, and more about the way we interact. A woman can be strong, but she needs to feel confident in and protected by her husband. She displays femininity when she places her trust in her husband instead of demanding. A man displays masculinity not when he lords over a woman, but when he leads her. When he displays the difference between a leader and a boss. Should a man be capable? Yes. Is he likely better suited to tasks requiring raw physical power than a woman? Sure. Does that mean a woman should not be capable or strong? I don't think so. I think we should all be more capable and strong than the world is getting, I just don't think it has to be so narrow a scope.
First, what we agree on. I agree that men are "losing their edge". They can't fix things, build things, fight things, or generally be useful. Though I would expand that to saying "people" are losing their edge. Your average American 18-20 year old has no useful skills. They can at best recite some facts deemed important on an end of year test, but they cannot run a household. Overall I believe gender neutralization is in fact a big part of this, and the shift further away from being a country of producers and becoming a country of consumers.
Ok, now the stuff I tend to disagree with.
I am a man. I do manly things like use large tools to lift broken 200,000 lb aircraft off the ground and fix them using hammers that weigh more than mid-sized children. I craft useful things out of leather, wood, and metal. I study and practice the arts of violence, physically and mentally preparing myself so I can defend my family with hand or blade or arrow or bullet. I put on a uniform and cross the oceans to defend the rights and freedoms of everyone else's family in this country. I rewire electrical circuits in houses and tear apart broken things to make them whole again and demolish basements so that I can build them anew in the image I desire. I can drive trucks and cranes and bulldozers and all manner of steel beasts. I can build fires and survive in the woods and hunt and fish and ride horses and teach myself to do all manner of things that I don't already know how to do.
I don't say any of that to brag, I say it to set the stage for the next bit. I also play music, and sing, and cook food, and I most certainly discuss feelings, oftentimes at great length. I don't hesitate to help with things around the house, it's not expected of me, but why not, especially if I have some decent time off work. I'll be silly, or dance, or basically do whatever I pretty much feel like because I am I man and I could give a rat's tail if what I do doesn't fit into what someone's idea of a "man" is. Being a man doesn't mean I have to me an emotionally stunted Neanderthal who is confused or angered by people having emotions. It doesn't mean I shouldn't be comfortable going to a place to get my hair cut that has "salon" in the title. You ever have a shoulder massage and hot towel service with your haircut? Feels pretty darn nice. And being a man doesn't mean that I have to confront every problem with brute force. I have many tools in my toolbox, brute force is one, but so is tact, diplomacy, empathy, love, grace, humility, humor. When all you have is a hammer, every problem looks like a nail.
I adore femininity. I love when a woman is a woman and not ashamed of that. But why can't a woman be capable? Why would it threaten my manhood if a woman was a better shot than me? Ideally I will always protect my own, but I can't be with my family 24/7. Should my wife or family be put in danger while I am not with them, I want her to crush his throat, or put two to the chest, not squeal and faint. My wife tends the home, she cuts grass and digs in soil and is strong and capable. She is my help meet. When I am gone serving my country do I want the home to fall apart? No. I want a woman who is strong and capable. Is a woman not a woman if she can fix a car? Is she not a woman if she can hunt game build things? I think many times women feel the need to ignore or supress their femininity in order to pursue certain career fields because of the thugs masquerading as men they work with. Or because of the shrews that call themselves their fellow women.
Is anyone familiar with the show Firefly? I am reminded of the character Kaylee. Yes it's a show, but I know women who manage to be strong, accomplished, and powerful while still remaining very feminine, but this character is fairly perfect as an example. Kaylee is all woman. She's sweet and pretty and wants to be pursued and desired, she loves a pretty dress. Yet she's normally in coveralls, crawling around an engine, trying to keep the ship going.
My point is that truly makes us masculine and feminine are less about the activities we do, and more about the way we interact. A woman can be strong, but she needs to feel confident in and protected by her husband. She displays femininity when she places her trust in her husband instead of demanding. A man displays masculinity not when he lords over a woman, but when he leads her. When he displays the difference between a leader and a boss. Should a man be capable? Yes. Is he likely better suited to tasks requiring raw physical power than a woman? Sure. Does that mean a woman should not be capable or strong? I don't think so. I think we should all be more capable and strong than the world is getting, I just don't think it has to be so narrow a scope.
Let's stipulate that more highly evolved males and females will demonstrate more crossover traits, and that the knuckle-dragging, math-flunking jock and the hot, bubble-headed cheerleader are caricatures of masculinity and femininity. What is it that sets "men" apart? What does it mean to be "manly" or "masculine"? What do we expect of men that we don't necessarily expect of women?
I would put strength on the list (hence the OP...). A man should be physically strong, and males that appear stronger appear more robust, more masculine, more MANLY. Anyone disagree? (And a college-aged (prime of life) male with the grip strength of a middle-aged woman? Lame...).
Female athletes and figure competitors can be quite strong without compromising their femininity, but it's not a trait that is specifically associated with femininity, it's not what ''makes them feminine'. Make sense?
And Firefly rocks. Booyah!
I would put strength on the list (hence the OP...). A man should be physically strong, and males that appear stronger appear more robust, more masculine, more MANLY. Anyone disagree? (And a college-aged (prime of life) male with the grip strength of a middle-aged woman? Lame...).
Female athletes and figure competitors can be quite strong without compromising their femininity, but it's not a trait that is specifically associated with femininity, it's not what ''makes them feminine'. Make sense?
And Firefly rocks. Booyah!
I do love me some Firefly. But the main masculine trait is the moral confidence to choose a course of action and be able to expect other to follow it because its right not because they want to or it's in their best interest.
Masculinity is an acceptance of authority, influence and power; that you wield, that which is wielded over you, that which has nothing to do with you and that which should be rejected.
Our whole lives need to rest on that. We don't have to live in the situation room of a command bunker 24/7. But the mission comes first.
I can't help but think about Jacob and Esau. God blessed the cook who stayed with the women and the hunter who everyone admired was a brainless meat head, even though he appeared to be a good guy in the end.
Still you wonder how much sin and unpleasantness could have been avoided if old Jake would have just butched it up a little bit.
Of course he ended up being pretty capable with the animal husbandry and administration and what not so maybe its not a good comparison.
Masculinity is an acceptance of authority, influence and power; that you wield, that which is wielded over you, that which has nothing to do with you and that which should be rejected.
Our whole lives need to rest on that. We don't have to live in the situation room of a command bunker 24/7. But the mission comes first.
I can't help but think about Jacob and Esau. God blessed the cook who stayed with the women and the hunter who everyone admired was a brainless meat head, even though he appeared to be a good guy in the end.
Still you wonder how much sin and unpleasantness could have been avoided if old Jake would have just butched it up a little bit.
Of course he ended up being pretty capable with the animal husbandry and administration and what not so maybe its not a good comparison.
Physical training has a little value, so I think men should not neglect it.
But speaking of manliness, I translate the word "virtue" or "Excellence" in 2 Peter 1:5 as manliness in the sense of "Possessing courage and the willingness to suffer for what is right"
Partially because telling me to add "Virtue" to my faith has all the practicality of telling me to add "flavor" to my spaghetti sauce. What flavors? From what spices? This is a really vague recipe!
And partially because the word is taken from a root word meaning manliness/valor.
And what intrigues me is that manliness comes before knowledge, which is as much to say; that a man should become courageous in greater priority than a man should learn.
also:
Q: Why hasn't captain Mal taken the Serenity out on a job for so long?
A: Because it needs a Wash.
It needs a gorram Wash, guys.
But speaking of manliness, I translate the word "virtue" or "Excellence" in 2 Peter 1:5 as manliness in the sense of "Possessing courage and the willingness to suffer for what is right"
Partially because telling me to add "Virtue" to my faith has all the practicality of telling me to add "flavor" to my spaghetti sauce. What flavors? From what spices? This is a really vague recipe!
And partially because the word is taken from a root word meaning manliness/valor.
And what intrigues me is that manliness comes before knowledge, which is as much to say; that a man should become courageous in greater priority than a man should learn.
also:
Q: Why hasn't captain Mal taken the Serenity out on a job for so long?
A: Because it needs a Wash.
It needs a gorram Wash, guys.
Hmmm, the first thing that comes to mind is "honor your father and mother."
The very next thing that comes to mind is the Marine Corps motto "Honor. Courage. Commitment."
At the base of it I sense an appropriateness and an authenticity. You honor someone or something by rendering what is appropriate and authentic to render. Sometimes that is obedience and fear. Sometimes it is an acknowledgment of someone's virtues or worthiness of emulation. Many times it is gratitude. There is probably a lot more than that but those jump out at me.
I think that is a very accurate way to describe honor, though specifically honor as a verb. "Tonight we honor Capt America", or "Your gift shows you honor my family."
I'd add though that it doesn't fully encompass the meaning because it seems to imply a "flexibility" in it's application based on who you are interacting with. Like maybe if you are dealing with a liar then they aren't worth the truth or something. Probably that is not what you intended, in fact I'd say almost certainly not. We may disagree on some things but I think you're a pretty consistent guy regardless of your audience, ya know?
So I'd put forth an additional definition for honor as a noun. Perhaps expressed as "The sum of a person's code of ethics and their ability to remain faithful to those ethics. A measure of their worthiness of trust and responsibility." So used like: "On my honor you are safe with me." Or "I treat you with respect not because you deserve it, but because my honor requires it."
I find honour easier to understand by considering dishonour. How would you dishonour your father & mother? By living a life that makes them embarrassed to admit that you're their child, because your behaviour reflects badly on them. So how would you honour them? By doing the opposite - living a life that people look at, are impressed by, and by extension are impressed by your parents ability to raise decent children.
And it never ceases to amaze me how people who believe in polygyny also seem to be the few people in the world who even know what Firefly was. The attraction of this obscure doctrine and this obscure TV show that had nothing to do with that doctrine at all is uncanny. Incidentally, Sarah and I watched Firefly weekly while we were dating, we'd attend a bible study together then rush back to her flat to catch Firefly on TV - and they actually showed it in order in NZ. We now have it on DVD and still watch through the entire series regularly...
And it never ceases to amaze me how people who believe in polygyny also seem to be the few people in the world who even know what Firefly was. The attraction of this obscure doctrine and this obscure TV show that had nothing to do with that doctrine at all is uncanny. Incidentally, Sarah and I watched Firefly weekly while we were dating, we'd attend a bible study together then rush back to her flat to catch Firefly on TV - and they actually showed it in order in NZ. We now have it on DVD and still watch through the entire series regularly...
I guess I am going to have to look Firefly up - I have no clue what you all are talking about. I guess that could be because I haven't watched TV in ages, but this seems to be no excuse.
UG, it sounds to me like there's an element of trustworthiness/dependability/reliability ("a man of his word"), but also an element of competence and contribution.
Take your example of "on my honor, you are safe with me". "On my honor" is an appeal to the credibility of the person's track record of doing what they said they would do. But "safe with me" implies both a certain capability or competence and the idea that that capability is being placed in the service of another.
And at the nexus of trustworthiness and competence there's an element of self-awareness, of 'not writing checks you can't cash', but you can infer that from the other two, so I wouldn't count it as a separate attribute.
Is 'honor' different from 'worth'?
Take your example of "on my honor, you are safe with me". "On my honor" is an appeal to the credibility of the person's track record of doing what they said they would do. But "safe with me" implies both a certain capability or competence and the idea that that capability is being placed in the service of another.
And at the nexus of trustworthiness and competence there's an element of self-awareness, of 'not writing checks you can't cash', but you can infer that from the other two, so I wouldn't count it as a separate attribute.
Is 'honor' different from 'worth'?