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Marriage-minded

Mark C

Mark C

Seasoned Member
Real Person
Male
OK, so I read Lissa's post a bit ago, and found it very interesting. After all, it was the top item on "View Active Topics" :) . It wasn't until I started to post a response that I noted the dreaded "Ladies Only!" warning and stopped myself before suffering further embarrassment...

But I still like the topic. And while I won't ask the ladies to feel inclined one way or another to participate here (although they're welcome to ;) ) I did want to add a comment or two, and look forward to any other male-oriented input as well.

I'll insert at least a bit of Sweet Lissa's intro here as well:

Not too long ago, a woman asked me if I would chose a polygynous relationship over a monogamous relationship every time? At the time I said "NO" but I didn't really understand why I said it. During a discussion with my hubby tonight it all clicked into place for me.

I believe that polygyny is blessed by God. I don't believe it is the only marriage God recognizes. I don't believe that monogamy is any more or less a marriage. I don't feel any less married to my hubby because I am second wife. I hope that T doesn't feel any less married because I exist.

But this is a discussion that we have had a few times. Say the worst happened, and our husband died. Give us a few years and we have thoroughly mourned his loss and we are ready to find a new husband. Because we were polygynous before, do we have to be polygynous now? Are we a "package deal?"

Hubby and I were talking about this tonight and he thought that it meant there was something wrong with me. Like I was being dishonest about my beliefs. But it isn't that .. It is about the relationship. If I love a man who is polygamous I would be polygamous, but if I love a man who is monogamous I would be monogamous. I would never exclude a relationship because he was one way or another.

This is because it is about relationships and family, not about poly v monogamy.
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My first comment is simply the observation that the Bible, and indeed even the Biblical Hebrew language as I understand it, makes no distinction whatsoever between the very Greco-Roman concepts of "mono-" and "poly-" forms of "marriage". It's just marriage, by Covenant. The fact that a man can have more than one such relationship is no more surprising than that our King has more than one subject -- it is an inherent aspect of the way He made us.

With that said, the more I think about it, were I to be taken from this world early, the more suspicious I would be of any future earthly covering for my wives (or daughters, if I had some) who claimed to be "monogamous".

Doesn't he read the Word? Is he INCAPABLE of loving more than one woman - and, if so, what's wrong with him? Is he presuming of God - willing to presuppose what God has for him, and so cocky that he will make a vow up front to reject what God may eventually have for him?

I realize that there may be many men who simply haven't studied, or been exposed to His Truth in a way that has yet "clicked" for them - just as there are friends of mine who currently call themselves "atheists" who (to reverse Ayn Rand's famous quote) are "too intelligent NOT to believe in God" -- and will, I pray, eventually have "eyes to see".

But I will admit to a bit of prejudice. A woman who is so much a "friend of the world" that she is unwilling to consider what God has to say about marriage, and would out-of-hand reject anything but the idolatry of monogamy is -- let's be blunt -- not a candidate for the "Proverbs 31 wife", at any rate. We are entering "perilous times".

Both men and women who want to be His brides at some point in the future need to start preparing their hearts now.


Blessings in Him,

Mark



Oh - and just to respond directly to the presumed question about "choosing polygamy over monogamy":

I'd choose marriage, and ask for a relationship where the helpmeet did not seek to limit God in the process.
 
Mark,
So I guess what you are saying is that any man should be open to the idea of polygyny? That if a man choses to only love one woman he is not following a Godly path? I am not sure that I can agree there, but I won't argue the point.

I am pleased that you didn't post in the "Ladies ONly" section. I might have had to tease you mercilessly. And the funny thing is that T and I have joked around about this a number of times.

Sweet Lissa
 
So I guess what you are saying is that any man should be open to the idea of polygyny? That if a man chooses to only love one woman he is not following a Godly path?
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Not at all, and probably, Lissa -- but I'm thankful that you ask BOTH questions, because it means I need to do a better job of the explanation -- and makes the distinction clear.

I contend that any person who claims to believe that "all Scripture" is given by God MUST be open to the idea of believing what He Wrote about marriage*. After all, He is a Covenant-keeping God, and His marriage with each of His own is at the very heart of His Word. All of us need to be "open to the idea" of WHATEVER He would chose to teach us, and give to us. (This is the real concept of what it means to be "humble", or teachable.)

So it's not that a Bible-claiming teachable man must be open to "polygamy" (or polygyny) - he must be open to "studying for himself" what God says about marriage. And yes, this is an open-book test, and there is a correct answer.

But the answer to the second question is a qualified "yes". Numbers 30 requires a man to honor his vows, and Yeshua has REPEATEDLY cautioned His own to be VERY careful about making vows at all. Some people have made such vows in the past (rightly or wrongly) -- and are held to them. But, yes, I would argue that for a 'believer' to make such a vow going forward would mean that such a man is attempting to limit God, and is therefore not trusting in Him. Or worse...but perhaps those caveats are obvious as well.

Even more directly, I'll come right out and say it. A vow to "monogamy" per se -- since it places a "tradition of man" ahead of the "Written Word" of God -- is idolatry. (see Matthew 15)




Blessings in His love,

Mark

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* Granted, there are other beliefs -- that God does not exist, or that He is not trustworthy, is fickle and changes His mind, or needs some earthy 'prophet', 'priest', or pretender to rewrite His Word when He makes yet another mistake. I pray that He would protect His own from such...
 
This is a great post Mark! It has helped the thing to 'click' for me. God showed me the other day that anyone who believes that monogamy is the right way for marriage at the rejection of Godly polygyny, is operating at the direction of the antichrist spirit. Thanks to your post here, it is confirmation that I heard correctly. Whoever rejects God directed polygyny is actually working AGAINST the return of Christ, since He will not come back before Isaiah chapter 4 is fulfilled. I would not want to be in the shoes of the people who promote monogamy over Godly polygyny when they face God one day and He asks them why they did so and worked against the return of His Son to this planet. It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of an angry God!

Be blessed,

Ray
 
I didn't say anything about taking a vow of monogamy. I just said if a man chooses to only love one woman. There is a subtle difference, but it is an important difference.

SweetLissa
 
SL,

I wasn't really speaking about your post, because I have not read it. I was commenting on what God showed me and what Mark said that helped to clarify my understanding of the situation. I now do not really believe that any man is capable of loving just one woman, though he may choose to marry only one. God put it in the genetic code to bring to pass the prophecy that is listed in Isaiah 4. I am beginning to understand this issue more all the time, as God reveals these things. You are a prophet by ministry gift and it sounds as though you have decided to submit your life to God's will. As is typical of prophets, you will then go with the flow of whatever God places in your life and be happy. This is an awesome characteristic, though rarely seen in female prophets these days, since most resist the submission thing.

Be blessed,

Ray
 
I just said if a man chooses to only love one woman.
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It's an interesting distinction, Lissa - thanks. And it helps to clarify, at least in one respect, what I think Ray was getting at as well...

Issues of vows aside, there really is a bit of idolatry associated even with the idea that "choosing to love ONLY one" is somehow superior to the ability to love as God has commanded us, and has made men.

While it is one thing to say that a man cannot afford to cover more than some number of persons, it is quite another to "choose to love ONLY..." some arbitrary number. (Particularly in the absence of coercion, subtle or not.)


Certainly a man who wants to "choose to love only one CHILD", and then finds that God has given his wife - SURPRISE - another blessing would not be accorded a superior 'moral' status, except of course in China. :twisted:

I appreciate the discussion...the more I think about the situation, the more the idea of "choosing to love" based on a number sounds more than a bit demonic. (Seven, of course, at least represents "completion" in a Biblical sense. ;) )

Blessings in Him,

Mark
 
My intention was not that a man would pick an arbitrary number at the beginning of his adult life. My thought while writing this was that over the course of the years, the man doesn't ever take another wife, whether or not he believes it is his right to do so. So in your other example, say a couple desire to have many children, but are only blessed with one. Does that make him any less of a father? I wasn't talking about superiority at all. But I do know people who believe that this is okay but don't believe they have the ability or desire to have more than one woman.

SweetLIssa
 
Ray,

Most of my post was quoted in Mark C's post, so it isn't a secret. But I want to thank you for your kind words. I don't suppose I am quite to the point of always being ready to just go with the flow, but I admit that I have gotten much better at it. As for being a prophet, I have never thought of that, but I am willing to serve God in whatever capacity he has for me.

SweetLIssa
 
Sorry, Lissa -- it wasn't my intention to give offense, or to even the impression that we were having a disagreement. All I'm proposing is that there is a very different way to look at the concept (and it is really a bit different than what I have considered before as well).


And I certainly don't have any problem with your example, or the one where people are not blessed with children, regardless of how many they may have wanted. And I don't even mean to imply that I don't understand your responses either -- just that the way you phrased your question allowed me to look at a couple of things in a new way.


Whether it's taking a new wife, NOT taking another wife, or any number of other such questions - the fact that we may have a presupposition about what it OUGHT to be can certainly be a hindrance to whatever blessing God might have in mind for us - especially if we aren't willing to accept it.

Blessings,
Mark
 
SL,

You are a prophet after Ezekiel. If you want to know what you are supposed to be doing for God, you can start there. Revelation chapter 10 and your name also hold keys to understanding your role in the body of Christ. Every Christian should know what their ministry gift(s) is/are within minutes of receiving Christ, (Ephesians 4:9-16). However, I find that most do not know even years later, because the leadership of the church does not know this simple truth. If we do not know what our ministry gift(s) is/are, then how can we ever bring glory to God or do the work that God created us to do, (John 17:4)? If I did not know that I was a plastic surgeon, then I might be getting ready to go flip burgers for McDonald's, (yes they have them over here too). McDonalds is far more organized and functional at its purpose than the Christian church, because they have guidelines for each persons job and they train each employee what they are supposed to do and they stick to those jobs.

If you are a prophet, (and you are) then you will have certain characteristics, as I outline in some of my teachings and cover in my book, (though most people do not read the stuff even though it is freely available to all). You will be hard wired to hear from God. You will have dreams, and based on your name, they will be vivid dreams of violence and end-time happenings. You will find it hard to sleep, because of the dreams and thoughts that come into your head. You will not be able to control them and they will be something that you will have had from as long as you can remember. Though you find them an annoyance, they are God trying to get you to wake up in the Spirit, listen to Him and begin to speak what He is saying to His people. You will know things that you should not otherwise know, such as when someone is pregnant before they show or possibly even before they know, (you may even know the sex of the baby). You may be able to tell someone that they should not do this or that because of impending danger and if you do not submit to the spirit of fear that plague all prophets, then you will warn them. You do not like to be told what to do; rather you like to tell others what to do. Prophets do not like to speak in public and speak very little to those they do not know. They would describe themselves as shy. However, when prophets begin speaking, it is hard to get them to shut up. You have to have the last word. You are very sensitive in your heart, though you may put up an outward image of being tough. Though they may have many friends, prophets typically have very few close friends and due to their sensitive nature it takes a lot for them to trust people. You will be quite sensitive to pain even in the body. Prophets are also by nature quite stubborn, but when they learn to submit to both God and their husband, they are steadfast in their ways because of their innate stubbornness.

If these things describe you, then you are a prophet and you need to get busy and begin to hear from God and then tell the rest of us what He is saying. Time is short.

Be blessed,

Ray

BTW - I thought ladies only meant that. :oops:
 
Ray,
We appreciate your leaving "ladies only" to the ladies. Thank you for your self control.

LOL

SweetLissa
 
I answered in the other forum... i'll repeat the gist of that here.

I think if a man accepts poly and is open to it but simply doesn't happen to meet more than one woman he would like to marry through his life then thats fine. However, i think a man who chooses to devote himself to one woman and not even bother to check out who else may be out there is a bit soft and i would probably think there was something not right about him. Personally, I don't believe monogamy is normal for men.
 
Melanie,

I agree with you. God put it in the genetic code for men to have the inclination to fulfill Isaiah chapter 4. People just do not want to admit it because it does not line up with what they want to believe. However, it is the 'new thing' that God is doing in this time in preparation for Christ's return. It will come to pass just as the scriptures say and women like you who understand these things are exemplary of that truth.

Be blessed,

Ray
 
To the people who say that a man must be polygamous, I would ask how many women must a man marry?
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I realize that Sweet Lissa asked this question in a related venue, but it's a good question, and exactly on-topic for this thread, too.

I would propose that the answer is ZERO. A man (and a woman, in this sense) can be "marriage minded" in the Biblical sense by being open to what God has for him, regardless of what that number is. (The apostle Paul, I have no doubt, was such a marriage-minded man, even though he was led to celibacy at least in the last phase of his life.)

And I agree with Lissa that the issue is about the nature of the relationship. Arguably most importantly - I think that is God's point. If we are not marriage minded in the truest sense of being open to whatever He has for us, how will we ever be able to understand His marriage with each of us?


Blessings in Him,

Mark
 
Just to be difficult, Dr. Ray, name one person in the bible who had exactly 7 wives.

SweetLissa
 
Melanie said:
I answered in the other forum... i'll repeat the gist of that here.

I think if a man accepts poly and is open to it but simply doesn't happen to meet more than one woman he would like to marry through his life then thats fine. However, i think a man who chooses to devote himself to one woman and not even bother to check out who else may be out there is a bit soft and i would probably think there was something not right about him. Personally, I don't believe monogamy is normal for men.
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I think it is a man's nature normally to have plural thoughts or inclinations. These inclinations are recognized by most people but labeled as something bad. Men are asked to hide, remove, confess, repent, control (and etc.) these inclinations but never instructed by anyone how to give this part of himself to God and keep it holy. Many Christian men have asked God to take away their attraction to other women in general. But if they are all honest, most would report that God never answered this prayer. God does not delight in there being so many single Christian ladies in the world and a movement where plural is more accepted is not just an answer to the proper prayers of men, but also to the prayers of single ladies and widows.

When men hide these inclinations and never realize they can have a "keep it holy" heart in their attractions to additional women, sin can find a hold.
 
Just to be difficult, Dr. Ray, name one person in the bible who had exactly 7 wives.
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Not easy, of course. Someone has pointed out elsewhere that the Bible does not name barren wives in the text; I'm not aware of a counter-example. Even when unnamed wives are implied, however, there is almost never an indication of a count*. So it's impossible to prove "exactly seven" in almost any case.

I think (hope?) that Dr. Ray knows that I'm not taking issue with his "number of completion" response to the question, too, Lissa. ;)

...just that for the most part (and I suspect on this we are all also in agreement) that it is our "heart condition" that matters more than any number. After all, most every man here had zero wives at some point, and less than seven as well at others...

Blessings,

Mark

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* With King Solomon a potential exception. Even there, it is arguable that the count is only approximate -- and that possibly to make a point. :D

There may be a few kings for whom numbers, but not names, are given as well. That would make an interesting study; I suspect Tom Shipley's book would make such a check fairly easy. I also suspect, but would like to check, that most of those who are given exact counts make have "done evil in" God's sight...and perhaps the number is a clue.

All of which makes me wonder if the number seven does NOT appear for exactly the reason of 'completion' in Isaiah 4:1 !
 
All of which makes me wonder if the number seven does NOT appear for exactly the reason of 'completion' in Isaiah 4:1 !
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With one obvious exception, of course. And it too is a very-much-related prophecy:

There are precisely SEVEN letters to SEVEN churches written by our Messiah through John in Revelation. Like most marriages, current or anticipated, He is not without some chastening for those He loves. But His intent seems clear.


Blessings in His love,

Mark
 
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