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Messianic Judaism and Hebrew roots and Sacred Namers movements

As I see it, when a person is one with Messiah - that person is no longer a gentile nor a Jew - but a son or daughter of the Most High. A 'gentile' implies 'pagan' ie: of the nations and when one is with Messiah - they are no longer a 'pagan' but a reborn son/daughter of the Most High. Consider Ruth who was a Moabite, yet the ancestor of king David and Messiah - yet she was Israel. Both Jew and gentile were grafted in when Matthew 21:43 is considered.

I try and understand why some Messianics spell God as G_d. I have seen this many times, however I thought it was clear that it was originally a Germanic pagan title for 'diety' which was adopted by later Christians. I see by definition - the Most High, El-Elyon in Hebrew as the Father in heaven, however the Truth that is I Am that I Am is beyond ordinary human definition, and at times I doubt some names ascribed as being His - but just mans definitions - attributions; however by Principles we can understand Him, ie: Eternal Good, Eternal Truth, Eternal Love, Eternal Rightousness, Eternal Freedom etc...

I don't believe as some more radical Messianic Jews have tried to enforce - that we are to keep the 613 commandments in the OT. I believe most of these were nailed on the cross, however the 10 commandments reflect the Eternal Nature and Character of the Most High. In addition, in Isaiah when the new heaven and earth is spoken of; it is clear that the cycle of 7 of the Father in heaven will be kept as Shabbat, where 'all mankind' will come before Him on the 7th day; and kosher diet will be kept and no unclean thing will be before Him.

Regarding feasts - I would rather keep feasts then the pagan holidays of Christmas and easter, however one must honor the intent of another persons heart to honor Messiah because that is all they know and they are doing so from their heart - even though its the wrong time/day - they don't know any better and Messiah honors the intent of their heart. I am in 2 minds about the 'requirement' of keeping all the feasts after the Cross. I believe Paul was speaking of them when he stated 'let no one judge you regarding the Sabbath 'days' - plural, not 'the' Sabbath day - singular. However I do not believe he was condoning we should eat unclean foods - and if he was - then according to the scripture he would be wrong if that was the case, however I believe he was being misquoted and was speaking in the context of 'within a kosher diet'. I still find it desirable to honor the Most High in keeping feasts - some of them, by choice - however although not required it is nice to do so, and not to detract from what Messiah did for us. I believe including Messiah in them would honor Him and the Father ...

At the end of the day, Messiah said the Truth sets you free - and He came to make us complete - and that our joy is complete. If these elements are not occurring, then something is missing and a re-alignment and at-one-ment with Him is necessary as I see it.
 
Well you've come to the right place with your mix of perspectives.
I am going to respond to a few parts of your post... hope you don't mind if I "one line at a time" them because it's really the only way to keep track of things sometimes. I'll only list some parts.

As I see it, when a person is one with Messiah - that person is no longer a gentile nor a Jew - but a son or daughter of the Most High. A 'gentile' implies 'pagan' ie: of the nations and when one is with Messiah - they are no longer a 'pagan' but a reborn son/daughter of the Most High.
The verse you are quoting from Galatians is Paul responding to those Gentiles who came to faith and then thought they must become Jews.
The same verse you allude too also says there is no male or female...obviously we still have males and females otherwise we would not have a discussion on a website friendly to polygamy. In the same way we also still have various people groups like Jews and Greeks.
A righteous Gentile is not a pagan. Job was a righteous Gentile.

I try and understand why some Messianics spell God as G_d. I have seen this many times, however I thought it was clear that it was originally a Germanic pagan title for 'diety' which was adopted by later Christians.
The English word God derives from Germanic "Gott" but the hyphen has nothing to do with that.
It's simply a sign of respect and consideration when we speak about the most high.
It's a custom in the same way it's a custom to say "you're welcome" in many cultures. For us it's uncomfortable to treat even a Germanic way of referencing G-d without some extra respect.

I don't believe as some more radical Messianic Jews have tried to enforce - that we are to keep the 613 commandments in the OT. I believe most of these were nailed on the cross, however the 10 commandments reflect the Eternal Nature and Character of the Most High.
Allow me to address these "radical Messianic Jews" with scripture. (note: slander of Paul is in RED)
Acts 20:20 And when they heard it, they glorified God. And they said to him, “You see, brother, how many thousands there are among the Jews of those who have believed. They are all zealous for the law, 21 and they have been told about you that you teach all the Jews who are among the Gentiles to forsake Moses, telling them not to circumcise their children or walk according to our customs. 22 What then is to be done? They will certainly hear that you have come. 23 Do therefore what we tell you. We have four men who are under a vow; 24 take these men and purify yourself along with them and pay their expenses, so that they may shave their heads. Thus all will know that there is nothing in what they have been told about you, but that you yourself also live in observance of the law.

So we see Paul was slandered, as he often is today, that he taught Jews to no longer keep all the commands (vs. 21) and to not walk in our customs. Paul is then instructed to show that this was baseless slander concerning his teachings.
So Jews who believe in Yeshua and live like Paul lived (in observance of the law and traditions) are "radical Messianics" .. that's fine by me. Color me RADICAL!!! How great to live like Paul; a truly excellent example for Jews who believe in Yeshua.
 
I don't believe it is necessary to keep all 613 commandments after they were nailed on the cross. The ceremonial laws and ordinances were done away with when the curtain tore between the holy and most holy place in the temple.

Regarding the Germanic title of God or Gotte. Why then are Adonai or Hashem or other Hebrew names referring to the Most High not hyphenated?.

I believe in being born again in Messiah. When that occurs in my mind this means one is a son or daughter of the Most High ... not a earthly gentile nor Jew...but becoming part of the heavenly race which is true Israel and more.

Revelation 14:12 states: "here is the patience of the saints, here are those who keep the commandments of God and have the faith of Jesus" I do not believe this includes or refers to the ceremonial laws and laws of ordinances and related laws, but keeping in the Character of the Most High via Messiah..

Regarding 'radical', in my travels I have come across radical Christians and Messianics and 'other'. By that I mean that unnecessary extremes are touted as requirements, however as Messiah pointed out regarding the Pharisees, it was their own additions or out-of-context traditional insistances creating unnecessary bondage that even they could not keep but enforced on others.

It always amazes me that the most valuable and fundamental truths are not understood and missed, but instead a religious mindset bent on the interpretations and definitions or redefinitions of man seem to come to the fore. John 5:39-40

The images of God that come to mind and those of Messiah in the minds of many may have nothing to do with the reality of who He really is....and the sad reality is that they are forming an image in their own mind of 'God' and worshipping it...in addition to making all appear more 'religous' but lacking in the substance of Truth that sets one free and is true oneness with the Father in heaven via Messiah.

I believe it is far greater to identify the true Principles of the Most High that matter 'now' identifying the foundational Truth and truths...and desire and draw on the Prescence of the Most High via Messiah in a solid principled manner ... and know Him in Spirit and Truth ... for then He will know those that know Him when He comes. Jer 29:13

Shalom :)
 
Hope you don't mind I'll need to respond in bits and pieces here.
I want to keep it all digestible. You wrote quite a bit and some of it seems polemical to torah-keepers.

Regarding the Germanic title of God or Gotte. Why then are Adonai or Hashem or other Hebrew names referring to the Most High not hyphenated?.
Thats's a good question.
"HaShem" doesn't need hyphenation because it just means "the Name" in Hebrew...it's already hyphenated so to speak.
Adonai we also treat differently among Jews or others who know Hebrew. Many will write אדושם (Adoshem) for example.
For "Elohiym" אלוהים we write "Elokiym" אלוקים if it's referring to the one true G-d. Since it's not a sin to not do this cultural respect, I usually just write Adonai if I'm talking to folks who don't know Hebrew because it introduces confusion to write Ad-nai or Adoshem.
We are in the "Messianic / Hebrew roots" forum so you're gonna see some of us doing this.

I don't believe it is necessary to keep all 613 commandments after they were nailed on the cross.
I think you are confusing sin for the commandments of G-d
No holy commandments were assassinated on the cross :)

I believe in being born again in Messiah. When that occurs in my mind this means one is a son or daughter of the Most High ... not a earthly gentile nor Jew...but becoming part of the heavenly race which is true Israel and more.
G-d loves you as a Gentile or Jew or however you were born..
G-d needs Jews and He needs righteous Gentiles. Gentiles are grafted in to Israel but that does not disinherit the 12 tribes.
Revelations mentions us; we still have a role to play in this thing even if G-d has blinded many of us Himself so that more Gentiles can come in.
Just like there are "heavenly men and women" but we still need men and women on Earth today. Perhaps we are "Earthly Men" and "Earthly Jews"... :p

You are Israel too, yes that's true, and so am I so let's please avoid terms like "the true Israel".
How much of a citizen you want to be is up to you (Matt 5:19).

I think I'll chose to try to live by the Apostle's example.
Living by the commandments and many of the traditions. My man Shaul got it going on doing both!

Regarding 'radical', in my travels I have come across radical Christians and Messianics and 'other'. By that I mean that unnecessary extremes are touted as requirements, however as Messiah pointed out regarding the Pharisees, it was their own additions or out-of-context traditional insistances creating unnecessary bondage that even they could not keep but enforced on others.
I think I understand better where you are coming from.
It was confusing to me because you first wrote about "nailing the commandments to the cross" then about "radical Messianics" who say we should keep the commands still.
I'm sure you'll understand from the way you presented earlier why I felt I needed to share with you how radical Paul was in his continued life-long observance of all the commands and many of the traditions (in my previous post).

I would like to share with you as a torah-keeper... it's anything but a bondage as you alluded. His instructions are sweet to my soul and I love Him for them and have so much gratitude.
I'm thankful for the way the proverbs refer to the Law "torat chesed" the Law of Grace.... so an overlooked aspect of the Law as also grace when we understand our proper relationship to G-d in it's context; especially via Yeshua, the living Law.

It always amazes me that the most valuable and fundamental truths are not understood and missed, but instead a religious mindset bent on the interpretations and definitions or redefinitions of man seem to come to the fore. John 5:39-40
The images of God that come to mind and those of Messiah in the minds of many may have nothing to do with the reality of who He really is....and the sad reality is that they are forming an image in their own mind of 'God' and worshiping it...in addition to making all appear more 'religous' but lacking in the substance of Truth that sets one free and is true oneness with the Father in heaven via Messiah.
I've seen more "religion" in standard Christian churches than I have in any Messianic synagogue or Hebrew roots Fellowship.
I've seen people barking in the spirit, and I've seen em singing the same old dead hymn week after week.
The difference is about Kingdom culture. Are we assimilating into the culture of the Kingdom or just going ad hoc?
There's a mountain of tradition in all the denominational churches (and most of the so-called "non-denominational"); the very same tradition which seeks to extinguish polygamy and other liberties of the Law of G-d.

I've seen a whole lot of grace in Messianic/Hebrew roots fellowships and sometimes a whole lot of legalism in standard churchianity groups. Also seen it the other way around.
May I humbly suggest that we do not presuppose that everyone trying to live like Paul is in bondage?
I just love how Paul demonstrated that he had been slandered when people said He violated the Law and taught other Jews to violate it too. He publicly proved his point... he loved the Law and the traditions and lived by both.
 
The ceremonial laws and ordinances were done away with when the curtain tore between the holy and most holy place in the temple.

Mishpaptim, or moral laws are relate to justice and judgment and are often translated as "ordinances." Mishpaptim are said to be based on God's holy nature. As such, the ordinances are holy, just, and unchanging. They were given by a Perfect and Loving Father.

Their purpose is to promote the well being of those who obey. The value of the laws is considered obvious by reason and common sense. The moral law encompasses regulations on justice, respect, and sexual conduct, and includes the Ten Commandments. It also includes penalties for failure to obey the ordinances.

The way I see it. The veil being torn between the holy and most holy place in the temple happened to show us we no longer need preist to intercede on our behalf.

John 14:6

6 Jesus answered, “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.

We all know that Jesus paid for our sins therefor the penalties for failing to obey are covered under grace.

I still find it desirable to honor the Most High in keeping feasts - some of them, by choice - however although not required it is nice to do so, and not to detract from what Messiah did for us. I believe including Messiah in them would honor Him and the Father

I've been looking at how all the Feast days prophecised Jesus and honor him. It's amazing.
 
So much of the Old Testament is restated and affirmed in the New Testament that I just can't bring myself to accept that it all is suddenly no longer valid or somehow now wicked or bad. Obviously some aspects were fulfilled but not all of it. Not by a long shot.
 
Reminder: It's only extreme NT/grace guys that say the law is done away with for everybody and extreme Messianics that say the law is now applicable to everybody. There's a position that says the law is still in place for the Jew, and still doesn't apply to the Gentile. There's a lot of stuff in the NT that can seem pretty confusing from either extreme position, but makes a lot of sense if you let both groups be themselves.

IshChayil's study of Paul above is a good example of how that works. Paul can be a real pain if you want to make his writings support one extreme position or the other. If you see him as ministering to two different groups and showing them that their real differences (again, like the male/female difference) do not matter in Christ, he can be pretty painless.
 
Reminder:... {all this stuff}
For a minute there i almost understood when the ladies go "we need a love button". Almost. For now, i'll just say i really liked this and I think that's the biggest tree in the forest some people walk right by.
 
extreme NT/grace guys extreme NT/grace guys that say the law is done away with for everybody
Postion 1
extreme Messianics that say the law is now applicable to everybody
Postion 2
position that says the law is still in place for the Jew, and still doesn't apply to the Gentile.
Postion 3

Then there's another Position

1 Peter 2:21

21 For to this you were called, because Christ also suffered for you, leaving you an example, that you should follow in His footsteps

John 15: 9,10

9 ......just as I have kept My Fathers commandments and remain in HIS love

Galatians 5:25

If we live by the Spirit, let us also walk by the Spirit.

This is how His Spirit led me to where I am at today, is the point I was trying to make. Let His Spirit guide us to where he needs us to be, to better serve him.
 
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Kevin, your "Team ___" characterizations reflect either a bias, a misunderstanding, or a deliberately misleading framing of the question. I know it's not deliberately deceptive, I doubt it's a misunderstanding, and I don't think there's any shame in concluding that it's a bias (we all have 'em).

Then there's Potion 4.....
Was "Potion" a Freudian slip?... ;)

Meanwhile, WWJD is great generic advice (and for the record, the classic "In His Steps" was hugely influential for me as a young Christian), but it's not really helpful here. We all have to contextualize that advice to apply it in our lives. The question is how does the gospel affect us as individuals where we are, when we are, how we are, when we are called.

This is the Messianic section, so I'm basically gonna leave y'all to your thoughts, but "Team Insanity" was a bit much (so was "Team Jesus"), and it's still a public forum.

If you don't get what I'm saying, try asking some questions.
 
Meanwhile, WWJD is great generic advice (and for the record, the classic "In His Steps" was hugely influential for me as a young Christian), but it's not really helpful here. We all have to contextualize that advice to apply it in our lives. The question is how does the gospel affect us as individuals where we are, when we are, how we are, when we are called.
Thank you for the correction. When I was typing wwjd kept popping up on the search engine on the other tablet and my phone as well. I'll correct it . Im sorry wasn't trying to be offensive I'll edit myself. It was a long night and I'll refrain from posting when I have not had enough sleep. I apologize again.
 
Kevin, you continue to impress me on many levels.

And I wasn't trying to be harsh as much as unambiguous—I'm headed out the door to an appointment with a computer repair guy and it would take more time to be diplomatic (or 'sugar coat' it, depending on how one wants to frame it).

More later, I'm sure, when you've had more sleep and I have more time. ;):cool:
 
And I wasn't trying to be harsh as much as unambiguous—I'm headed out the door to an appointment with a computer repair guy and it would take more time to be diplomatic (or 'sugar coat' it, depending on how one wants to frame it).
I didn't take it in a negative way. Blunt works best with me.
 
When dealing with these issues, a solid reading of James can come in handy. I love that book!
 
Blunt works best with me.
Me too, brother.

As a side note, living with three women for 20 years and living in community for 10 years makes 'blunt' the norm. There's no time for diplomacy, and you can't get away with finessing anything anyway. Blunt just makes sense.

As a side note to the side note, I find that the people I'm closest with are more blunt with me and I with them, so trust is an issue in there somewhere. Diplomacy is more for people who don't know what to make of each other.

As a side³ note to everyone just in case, 'blunt' is not a cover for 'mean' or 'hateful'. 'Blunt' is permission to speak freely and directly among brothers without insult or personal attack.
 
When dealing with these issues, a solid reading of James can come in handy. I love that book!
Do you remember "church lady" from Saturday Night Live?

someone wanted to remove the book of James from the bible... who could it be?
-SATAN!!!!
 
Do you remember "church lady" from Saturday Night Live?

someone wanted to remove the book of James from the bible... who could it be?
-SATAN!!!!
I remember her, but not that episode.

Wait, didn't Luther want Hebrews and James removed? Seriously. Was it someone else?
 
Hebrews, James, Jude and Revelation are the books that Martin Luther wanted removed from the Bible.
 
He perceived them to go against certain his veiws of protestant doctrines such as sola gratia and sola fide.
 
Wait, didn't Luther want Hebrews and James removed? Seriously. Was it someone else?
I think that was IC's point.... ;)
 
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