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MJ/HRG View of 'Authority' with Church & Home

jcee

jcee

Member
Male
I was wondering how you guys (and gals) balance these scriptures while holding to a strong patriarchal structure in your home. I'm especially interested how those who practice Messianic Jew/Hebrew Roots practice this. Here are some verses I am referring to:
  1. Hebrews 13:17: "Obey your leaders and submit to them, for they are keeping watch over your souls, as those who will have to give an account. Let them do this with joy and not with groaning, for that would be of no advantage to you." This verse encourages respecting and submitting to spiritual leaders who have a responsibility to guide and care for the congregation.
  2. 1 Thessalonians 5:12-13: "We ask you, brothers, to respect those who labor among you and are over you in the Lord and admonish you, and to esteem them very highly in love because of their work." This passage emphasizes showing appreciation and respect for those who work hard to lead and teach within the church.
  3. 1 Timothy 5:17: "Let the elders who rule well be considered worthy of double honor, especially those who labor in preaching and teaching." This verse suggests that elders who lead and teach effectively should be honored and respected for their service.
  4. 1 Peter 5:5: "Likewise, you who are younger, be subject to the elders. Clothe yourselves, all of you, with humility toward one another, for 'God opposes the proud but gives grace to the humble.'" This verse encourages younger members of the church to respect and be submissive to the elders, emphasizing the importance of humility.
I understand that these verses don't advocate for blind obedience to church leaders and that you would likely base 'honor' and 'respect' on their alignment with biblical teachings, character, etc. I'm speaking more to the ecclesiastical structure of your fellowship and how you practically work out these verses in a patriarchal home.
 
I don't understand why one would relate to the other. The home is the home, and the church is the church.
 
MarkH said:
I don't understand why one would relate to the other. The home is the home, and the church is the church.
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That's interesting. So, if I understand you, you see them separate and not relating to each other. Does that mean you don't see a relationship between family and church in any circumstance?
 
MarkH said:
I don't understand why one would relate to the other. The home is the home, and the church is the church.
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The Revolting Man said:
I’m not aware of any scriptural basis for giving religious institutions influence in the home.
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The home is the eclasia in miniature, the same as it is typological of the bride.
 
jcee said:
I'm speaking more to the ecclesiastical structure of your fellowship and how you practically work out these verses in a patriarchal home.
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The strict authority structure:
Ephesians 5:23 (KJV)
For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body.
 
It's about different areas of governance. They aren't overlapping or one superior to another.

Off course religious authority is responsible for religious building (upkeep, maintemance), when services will be, accuracy of teachings.... Here they can claim right to command others.

Like you can propose when religious service will be, but you have no right to organise another service in time more convenient for you.

Ideology of modern state has fried your brain,@jcee. You are assuming one must be superior to another or somebody must be in charge (correct only for small exclusive domains, not widespread)
 
The home has its authority, the husband, and Christ is the head of the husband. AND the church has its authority, the elders, with Christ as the head of both the elders and the church. And sure, per some if-than logic, they might be seen as the same. But in reality, they are similar but different. The church would never be the head of the home.
 
jcee said:
I was wondering how you guys (and gals) balance these scriptures while holding to a strong patriarchal structure in your home. I'm especially interested how those who practice Messianic Jew/Hebrew Roots practice this. Here are some verses I am referring to:
  1. Hebrews 13:17: "Obey your leaders and submit to them, for they are keeping watch over your souls, as those who will have to give an account. Let them do this with joy and not with groaning, for that would be of no advantage to you." This verse encourages respecting and submitting to spiritual leaders who have a responsibility to guide and care for the congregation.
  2. 1 Thessalonians 5:12-13: "We ask you, brothers, to respect those who labor among you and are over you in the Lord and admonish you, and to esteem them very highly in love because of their work." This passage emphasizes showing appreciation and respect for those who work hard to lead and teach within the church.
  3. 1 Timothy 5:17: "Let the elders who rule well be considered worthy of double honor, especially those who labor in preaching and teaching." This verse suggests that elders who lead and teach effectively should be honored and respected for their service.
  4. 1 Peter 5:5: "Likewise, you who are younger, be subject to the elders. Clothe yourselves, all of you, with humility toward one another, for 'God opposes the proud but gives grace to the humble.'" This verse encourages younger members of the church to respect and be submissive to the elders, emphasizing the importance of humility.
I understand that these verses don't advocate for blind obedience to church leaders and that you would likely base 'honor' and 'respect' on their alignment with biblical teachings, character, etc. I'm speaking more to the ecclesiastical structure of your fellowship and how you practically work out these verses in a patriarchal home.
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So, what do you guys do with statements like "obey... and submit to them", "those... who are over you in the Lord", "elders who rule {over you]", "be subject to the elders"? How do you obey, submit, let them rule over you in the Lord, etc... while being the patriarchal leader of your home?
 
jcee said:
So, what do you guys do with statements like "obey... and submit to them", "those... who are over you in the Lord", "elders who rule {over you]", "be subject to the elders"? How do you obey, submit, let them rule over you in the Lord, etc... while being the patriarchal leader of your home?
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They don't apply over home or your work.

You obey your boss, but where? Only in workplace. He has no authority over your house, children or wife(s). His authority ends at workplace boundary.

How is that hard to understand? Somebody having some authority doesn't mean it's all covering.
 
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jcee said:
I was wondering how you guys (and gals) balance these scriptures while holding to a strong patriarchal structure in your home. I'm especially interested how those who practice Messianic Jew/Hebrew Roots practice this.
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If it's a 501c(3) 'church' then they obey "another master" - and I want nothing to do with them.

Likewise, if they reject His Word concerning:
- marriage
- His moedim
- or, yes, serve pork chops at the sun-god day pot luck,
- or if they advocated for taking the Zyklon-B mRNA injection, etc,

I want nothing to do with them.

They're not my "leaders," their rotten fruit shows they don't "watch over my soul," and I don't submit to what I contend (at some length, elsewhere) YHVH Himself condemns, and exiled, for "whoring" (idolatry/adultery).
 
Joel Webben (Right Response Ministries on YouTube) describes the three levels of authority (State, Church, Home). Teaches that the wider the "pool" of people under that level, the more shallow the authority. So a State covers a large group of people, but has the least amount of control. A Father covers only a family but has the most authority over his family. The church then is in between. I will try and find the video
 
jcee said:
So, what do you guys do with statements like "obey... and submit to them", "those... who are over you in the Lord", "elders who rule {over you]", "be subject to the elders"? How do you obey, submit, let them rule over you in the Lord, etc... while being the patriarchal leader of your home?
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We submit to each authority in their sphere of authority. If a policeman tells you to pull over because you're speeding, you do what he says. If you're a child at school and your teacher tells you to do something, you obey them. If you join the military and your commanding officer gives you an order, you obey it. If you're in a church meeting and the elders tell you to shut up and sit down, you do it. If you're a wife and your husband instructs you to do something, you do it. And if you are a child and your parent tells you to do something, you do it. There is no conflict between authorities provided each is obeyed within their own sphere of authority.

Problems only come when an authority steps out of line and tries to act outside their legitimate sphere - the immediate example that jumps to mind is governments, but it also occurs with secular institutions like schools (when they try to punish children for things done off school property), employers, religious cults, and oppressive family heads - any authority over one area of life that tries to control the totality of someone's life. In such cases you do not submit.
 
FollowingHim said:
If you're a child at school and your teacher tells you to do something, you obey them. If you join the military and your commanding officer gives you an order, you obey it. If you're in a church meeting and the elders tell you to shut up and sit down, you do it.
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Mostly what those examples describe is 'voluntary association,' or even 'in personam jurisdiction.'

If you put your child in a Publik Indoctrination Sintur, you have given them that jurisdiction (rightly, or more often than not, wrongly.)

If you choose to GO into a church meeting, you obey the jurisdiction you entered voluntarily.

But that is why, "as for me and my house," I choose to obey YHVH, 'and Him alone,' and "come out of her."
 
jcee said:
I was wondering how you guys (and gals) balance these scriptures while holding to a strong patriarchal structure in your home. I'm especially interested how those who practice Messianic Jew/Hebrew Roots practice this. Here are some verses I am referring to:
  1. Hebrews 13:17: "Obey your leaders and submit to them, for they are keeping watch over your souls, as those who will have to give an account. Let them do this with joy and not with groaning, for that would be of no advantage to you." This verse encourages respecting and submitting to spiritual leaders who have a responsibility to guide and care for the congregation.
Click to expand...
This verse urges believers to rely on their spiritual leaders. To go to them, accept their persuasion, have faith in their ministry. Notice that the charge is always to submit. Never for the leaders to oppress or force into submission. The leadership is a judicial and spiritual one, not an executive or legislative. Yitro's system had the judges available to "judge the people at all times". Leaders need to be available, not invasive. And everyone needs to utilize their leadership more.

The structure includes home and the assembly. The home is led by the Patriarch. Whether that is the husband, father, grandfather, or great grandfather this is the where the most authority lies. "Above" the patriarch are other patriarchs, evident in the community to be wise and well respected. I think the authority structure in the assembly is best done when no one is "on top" let there be a council of respected and wise men at the top and let them be available to the people (and let the people humble themselves and seek council!).

Edit: Note, I do believe the initial Patriarch does have executive authority over his family, and some degree of legislative leadership as well. The Law is already written, and there is no adding to it, but in the home a Patriarch can have rules that are beyond the scope of Torah. Similarly to how the military operates with regulations. For instance, The Torah doesn't say women must wear gloves, but if a Patriarch told his wives and daughters to wear gloves, he has that authority. Etc.
 
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Michael Moon said:
This verse urges believers to rely on their spiritual leaders. To go to them, accept their persuasion, have faith in their ministry. Notice that the charge is always to submit. Never for the leaders to oppress or force into submission. The leadership is a judicial and spiritual one, not an executive or legislative. Yitro's system had the judges available to "judge the people at all times". Leaders need to be available, not invasive. And everyone needs to utilize their leadership more.
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Interesting.

So they are like medieval king. Only for enforcing existing law, never inventing anything new.
 
steve said:
The strict authority structure:
Ephesians 5:23 (KJV)
For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body.
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The Church (unversal or local) nor the pastor is not the head of the husband.
 
Maddog said:
The Church (unversal or local) nor the pastor is not the head of the husband.
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That is exactly what is proven by the verse quoted.
 
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