Must Yeshua be sinless to be the Messiah and did Yeshua sin by changing the law.

[Nikud]

Jesus did make new doctrine about marriage, specifically expanding the definition of adultery to include desire and (despite what this thread may lead one to believe) clarify both the theory and practice of divorce.

So your stance is that Yeshua added to the law, therefore sinned and did not live a sinless life as a mortal to become a perfect sinless sacrifice. Since y'all are into plain readings, at which point did he say this or that is a sin.

What he was saying about lust in the heart being Adultery, is a teaching that you need to chance your heart.

Matthew 5:27-30

“You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall not commit adultery.’ But I tell you that everyone who looks upon a woman to lust after her has already committed adultery with her in his heart. And if your right eye causes you to stumble, gouge it out and throw it away! It is better for you that one part of your body should be destroyed, than that your whole body be thrown into Gehenna. And if your right hand causes you to stumble, cut it off and throw it away! It is better for you that one part of your body should be destroyed, than that your whole body go into Gehenna.

Plain reading when we sin were suppose to cut of our hand or gouge out our eye when we use them to sin. Our eyes and hands don't cause us to stumble our heart does.

I agree he was telling us how we are supose to live in a way pleasing to G-d (himself), what he never did was declare something new to be sinfull and add to the law. I use to hold the same opinion that he was adding to the law but after a little bantering with @Mojo on a thread about a year ago, you were also. It seems we switched sides of the arguement.

Romans 7:7

"What shall we say then? Is the Torah sin? May it never be! On the contrary, I would not have known sin except through the Torah. For I would not have known about coveting if the Torah had not said, “You shall not covet.”

I'm pretty sure that if Yeshua had declared something a sin Paul would have given him credit.

Incorrect, not coveting your neighbor's wife was lumped in with not coveting his ass, or any of his property. It was in Matthew that Jesus separated it out and elevated it to adultery.

So your stance is he added to the law.

Deuteronomy 4:2

You must not add to the word that I am commanding you or take away from it—in order to keep the mitzvot of Adonai your G-d that I am commanding you.

Matthew 23:1-3

Then Yeshua spoke to the crowds and to His disciples, saying, “The Torah scholars and Pharisees sit on the seat of Moses. So whatever they tell you, do and observe. But don’t do what they do; for what they say, they do not do.

That would make Yeshua (G-d) a hypocrite for chastising them for saying and not observing, while He Himself said don't add then added. Which is saying and not observing.

If he changed the meaning of the law. He as a mortal was unable to keep the mitzvots therefore not the Messiah.
This is regardless if someone beleives we still must follow Torah or that the law was abolished.

Matthew 5:17-20
“Do not think that I came to abolish the Torah or the Prophets! I did not come to abolish, but to fulfill. Amen, I tell you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or serif shall ever pass away from the Torah until all things come to pass. Therefore, whoever breaks one of the least of these commandments, and teaches others the same, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven. But whoever keeps and teaches them, this one shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. For I tell you that unless your righteousness exceeds that of the Pharisees and Torahs cholars, you shall never enter the kingdom of heaven!

He had yet to fullfill prophecy when you say he changed the law. Meaning if He change the law that means Yeshua was a liar and did not full fill the role of a sinnless sacrifice.

That's a fine line to walk and you have to throw that "in your heart" part out there very quick after the "you have committed adultery".

Your trying to cut a complete statement off midpoint and ignore the realavent point to make a case for your stance.

You can argue that the law changed after the crucifiction and we don't have to follow it

But you can't argue the fact that

Yeshua did have to follow it to be the perfect sacrifice.

No. My stance is that Jesus is the Law and that He did elaborate and tweak some things when He was with us in the flesh. That seems so self evident to me that I can't even formulate a coherent argument. He changed many things

He had yet to fullfill prophecy when you say he changed the law. Meaning if He change the law that means Yeshua was a liar and did not full fill the role of a sinnless sacrifice.

This is not so self evident. I w

If he changed the meaning of the law. He as a mortal was unable to keep the mitzvots therefore not the Messiah.
This is regardless if someone beleives we still must follow Torah or that the law was abolished.

Again, I don't see how this is the case. It seems like a giant leap from thing to the other.

None of the things we're talking about changed a sin to a non-sin. Coveting your neighbor's wife was upgraded from a sin with no earthly consequences to a mortal sin that required death. The definition of adultery wasn't changed it was enlarged.

Your trying to cut a complete statement off midpoint and ignore the realavent point to make a case for your stance.

Absolutely not. I'm adding back in the part that says "you have committed adultery". The fact that it was in your heart doesn't change the sin. Coveting your neighbor's wife is now adultery. The Law was enlarged.

Look, God changed the Law when He gave the Law. There had been a Law prior to Moses that God expected people to live up to and then He enlarged it and even changed it. So I'm not sure why you think God can't do what He will with is Word/Law. I really don't see a conflict with Jesus statements about fulfilling the Law but not doing away with the Law and the fact that He changed some stuff. Maybe part of the fulfillment was that He made us have our minds right as well as our actions. That would fit in with the prophesy of serving God in fullness and in truth.

And Mojo pretty much punted and fled on the whole sacrifice thing but there is no doubt that there were specific commands to perform rituals in certain ways at certain times and NO ONE thinks they have to do those things now. Some things changed. If they didn't then we're all in a heap of hot water because none of us are even remotely trying to do it all.

You can say enlarged, tweaked or what ever you want. It all means changed. Added to.

Deuteronomy 4:2

You must not add to the word that I am commanding you or take away from it—in order to keep the mitzvot of Adonai your G-d that I am commanding you.

Matthew 15:14

"And if the blind lead the blind, both will fall into a ditch." Don't allow someone, who has added to and taken away from G-d's word, to lead you. Open your eyes and read G-d's word for yourself. Those who have added to and taken away from G-d's word will be lost. If you continue to follow them, then you too will be lost"

Revelation 22:18-19

"For I testify unto everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book, if anyone adds to these things, G-d will add to him the plagues that are written in this book; And if anyone takes away from the words of this book of this prophecy, G-d shall take away his part from the Book of Life, and from the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book."

Matthew 5:17-20

“Do not think that I came to abolish the Torah or the Prophets! I did not come to abolish, but to fulfill. Amen, I tell you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or serif shall ever pass away from the Torah until all things come to pass.

If He changed the law then He did not fulfill messianic prophecy (I'll leave it to you to read through them) and He lied because when you change the law you change from what is written and those letters and serifs pass away and are replaced with the letters and serifs of a new meaning of the law.

Numbers 23:19

G-d is not man, that he should lie, or a son of man, that he should change his mind. Has he said, and will he not do it? Or has he spoken, and will he not fulfill it?

The stance that Yeshua is the law and can change them if he wants still makes Yeshua (G-d) a hypocrite for chastising the Pharasee for saying and not observing, while He Himself did the same thing. Look at the defintion of hypocrisy the practice of claiming to have moral standards or beliefs to which one's own behavior does not conform; pretense....lieing.

If Yeshua (G-d) lied He is not who He says He is.

These were Laws that were given to performed in a precise manner

Do you listen to your self. One second your saying it's ok to change Torah then the next your saying that the mitzvots were meant to be followed in a precise manner. Only the ones you choose have to be, right. Not all of the word of G-d was supposed to be followed in a precise manner. It's not like G-d never destroyed someone for not following His mitzvots precisely,

Yeshua had to follow Torah to be the perfect sacrifice, without blemish. To do something perfectly you kind of have to be precise in your application.

 

[The Revolting Man]

This is a little hard to follow and doesn't even seem to accurately reflect what I was trying to say. Why don't you start with a hypothesis or a question and let's start afresh. This doesn't seem like it's going to get us anywhere.

 

[Shadowjak's Dancer]

For a start, I dont believe Yeshua expanded the definition of adultery. My perspective is based on how Yeshua explained that sin and uncleanness proceed from the heart. The decisions to sin come from a heart that has already decided to want something more than loving God. Hating a brother without cause is a road which can lead to murder, for example.

Let's look at it this way: in terms of travel. Getting to your destination always begins with starting down the path. Starting down the path usually starts with an active or a passive desire to go to that place.

The ten matters prohibits adultery, yes, but they also prohibits coveting your neighbor's wife. The one is a condition of the heart that will naturally lead to the other. As a matter of fact, coveting in the heart leads to many sins, such as stealing, etc.