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Observation of a law

Slumberfreeze

Seasoned Member
Real Person
Male
Specifically in this case "You shall not muzzle an ox while it treads the grain" (Deut. 25:4)

It's an odd sort of law that seems out of place in it's immediate context. It also seems fairly straightforward as far as obedience. Just don't muzzle an ox while it's treading out the grain. Having restrained yourself from muzzling the ox, you have done your duty in following the law.

Paul has a startling couple of interpretations that could not have been reached without the quickening of the Holy Spirit.

1 Timothy 5:17 Elders who lead effectively are worthy of double honor, especially those who work hard at preaching and teaching. 18 For the Scripture says, “Do not muzzle an ox while it is treading out the grain,” and, “The worker is worthy of his wages.”

- I note that Paul takes the the Elder to be an 'ox' for the purpose of the law (as well as a worker)
- I also note that 'honor' seems synonymous with 'cash money' (Mark 7:11)

1 Corintians 9:3 This is my defense to those who scrutinize me: 4 Have we no right to food and to drink? 5 Have we no right to take along a believing wife, as do the other apostles and the Lord’s brothers and Cephas? 6 Or are Barnabas and I the only apostles who must work for a living? 7 Who serves as a soldier at his own expense? Who plants a vineyard and does not eat of its fruit? Who tends a flock and does not drink of its milk?
8 Do I say this from a human perspective? Doesn’t the Law say the same thing? 9 For it is written in the Law of Moses: “Do not muzzle an ox while it is treading out the grain.” Is it about oxen that God is concerned? 10 Isn’t He actually speaking on our behalf? Indeed, this was written for us, because when the plowman plows and the thresher threshes, they should also expect to share in the harvest.

- I note that Paul here includes apostles under the the 'ox clause'. I would add that teachers fall under this as well on the basis of Galatians 6:6
- Incredibly, Paul calls into question whether God was actually concerned about the oxen in the first place, and asserts that the entire point of the law is on behalf of workers in the harvest, especially the spiritual harvest!

Therefore, the most important interpretation of "How to follow this Law" is provided by the Scripture itself.
The Ox = The Elder, Apostle, or other laborer of the gospel.
Treading the grain = His work in service to the gospel (preaching and teaching)
Muzzling = Restraining the laborer from partaking in the material goods belonging to those who are being taught and preached to.

I have no qualms with a christian man using an unmuzzled ox to tread his grain. He is clearly some variant of Amish and I wish him well. But if he leads that unmuzzled oxen around while insisting that his elders sustain themselves with physical labor and refuses to share his grain with those who labor in the word for him; it is my understanding that he has missed the entire point of the law. He has no righteousness in this act. An unregenerate man could do as much.

That is what I crave from the law. Not the face value stuff, or should I say not JUST the face value stuff? I want to know what the teaching of the Holy Spirit is through each law. A clarinet without the breath being blown through it and handled with discernment is just an awkward and inefficient club. How does each law help me demonstrate love for my neighbor, or my God?
 
Well said.
Slumberfreeze said:
Who plants a vineyard and does not eat of its fruit? Who tends a flock and does not drink of its milk?
These also have a very practical application in employment. A relaxed dairy farmer here give his workers free milk and meat, but a stringent one will not for food safety reasons (scared the workers will get sick from unpasturised milk). The more corporate and regulated agriculture becomes, the less the workers get to directly benefit from the harvest. YHWH's natural environment we should be living in and enjoying gets removed from us and turned into a mechanised regime that is just another workplace.
 
Slumberfreeze said:
- I also note that 'honor' seems synonymous with 'cash money' (Mark 7:11)

I came to similar conclusions through my own Bible study. For me that puts a different spin on the 5th commandment. "Honor thy father and thy mother." So is this technically the main meaning of that commandment as well? Does it follow that parents are to care and provide money to minors, but eventually the tables should be turned and the children provide of their money for the care of aged parents? I know we are doing a lot of jumping Testaments which means they were each written in different languages, but as a Bible teacher I would feel pretty confident that teaching it that way would be in line with Scripture.

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FascinatingLady said:
So is this technically the main meaning of that commandment as well? Does it follow that parents are to care and provide money to minors, but eventually the tables should be turned and the children provide of their money for the care of aged parents?

That is nearly my exact understanding, Ma'am. (Nice to meet you!)

It is also explicitly stated in 1 Tim 5:4, referring to the children or grandchildren of widows.

I want to say that there is probably more to it than providing care for aged parents, but it certainly means at least that. And since the children are showing their piety by providing for their widowed moms in order to not burden the Church; it seems reasonable for me to think that allowing their parents to be sustained only by their savings or government assistance runs contrary to the commandment, and they rob themselves of the blessings that come with it.
 
Slumberfreeze said:
.............
That is what I crave from the law. Not the face value stuff, or should I say not JUST the face value stuff? I want to know what the teaching of the Holy Spirit is through each law. A clarinet without the breath being blown through it and handled with discernment is just an awkward and inefficient club. How does each law help me demonstrate love for my neighbor, or my God?

"For in it is revealed God’s righteousness from faith to faith. As it is written, “But the righteous shall live by faith.” (Rom 1:17)
"Behold, his soul is puffed up. It is not upright in him, but the righteous will live by his faith." (Habakkuk 2:4)

The righteousness is what others can see and is derived from the Word of God that we believe to be truth. The Law of faith that we are to obey eternally that transforms us into a new man and leads us into the Law of Righteousness is the OBSERVABLE practicing of the Word of God. I guess if there are no differences to how believers vs unbelievers live, what they do (follow) practically (I make of it that face value as you write) then how are we different?
I'm not a fan of Muslims but you CAN TELL pretty much at first glance when you do encounter one because they sure are different.
 
Wellll.... shoot, Lila. That is exactly the discussion I'm hoping to avoid having here. If you want to PM me I'd be happy to give you my opinion, so that we could never ever be friends again. But I'd really rather not tackle what I think you're asking in a forum type setting.

If you don't want to PM, that's cool too.

Now answer me this, is that a Shia Labeouf reference in your signature?
 
Slumberfreeze, you have a very specific way of putting things and it didn't occur to me you didn't mean what you said (seemingly) hence me writing a response to what you were asking (seemingly).

Never heard of Shia Labeouf either, sorry.
 
For what it's worth Lila, I have this problem in real life too. Communication has been a real uphill struggle my whole life, because I wasn't much of a talker in school. So when I finally started talking to people it was weird because I speak the way I think people talk, rather than the way they actually do.

But this is what I was referring to. Prepare to be underwhelmed. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZXsQAXx_ao0
 
Well that was.... different. :P
 
That was a link to a video of Shia LaBeouf. You said you didn't know who he was as I recall (or at least someone did). That's him. He's an actor probably best known for Transformers.
 
Sorry yeah that was Shia Labeouf. That's what I thought your 'Nothing is impossible' signature might have been in reference to.

Um. That video was a popular-ish meme not too long ago. It's funny. To some people. People who find weird things funny.

Whew! You know that feeling when you're being a total robot and you can't stop revealing your power level?

That's me right now.
 
Well, I'm completely confused too, don't worry Lila, this time Slumberfreeze has lost me also...

But I think his original point was that he wanted to dig into the technicalities behind a law, rather than jumping to the general issue of whether we are to follow the law today, and that discussion was what he was trying explicitly to avoid.
 
Sweet heavens yes. Thank you FH that is exactly what I was trying to say. I appreciate the work you and UntoldGlory have been doing translating my babble into English!
 
No problem Slumberfreeze. When we lived in Ireland, nobody there could understand Sarah's accent, so I had to translate her for them - even though I had the same accent they could understand me but not her. So I'm an expert English-to-English translator! Don't ask me to translate to any other language though...
 
The women in the ladies chat don't understand me half the time and I'm not even speaking, I'm typing! Clearly it takes a special man to understand me, and you're doing a wonderful job dear.
Don't ask me to translate to any other language though...
Bet ya can. You've probably absorbed a lot more maori than you think. Whakarongo mai.
 
FollowingHim said:
...original point was that he wanted to dig into the technicalities behind a law, rather than jumping to the general issue of whether we are to follow the law today, and that discussion was what he was trying explicitly to avoid.

Fair enough, thanks for the translation. Without you putting it the way you just did I really had pretty much the conclusion that Slumberfreeze is a little bit rude to say the least as I didn't see a reason why (seemingly) threaten for posting something relevant...
 
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