Ordination, church planting, and missions

[DeathIsNotTheEnd]

Hi all


I'm posting this here in the hopes that some of you might sympathize or have some words of encouragement. Prayers are most welcome.

I find myself in a difficult position when it comes to deciding the wife and my next steps as missionaries. Up until now we have been simple tentmaking missionaries, what some might call 'lifestyle' missionaries in Japan. The Japanese church is barely existant, and the missionary-planted church is quite small as it is. As we talk to people and attempt to make disciples, person by person, through relationship, I keep finding myself in this situation where I want to, I LONG to be able to, in good conscience, introduce my Japanese friends to fellow believers, to offer them the wisdom of others who have more or different experiences than I, and so on.

The problem is...I have never met (in person) another person who understands the Biblical support for PM. For me, the Church's resistance to it hasn't manifest in my life as my wife and I aren't in the position of seeking PM at the moment for ourselves, but as a missionary and a teacher and discipler, I find that it is vitally important to me to speak God's truth as best I understand it.

What this means is that a lot of the time (most of the time), I find myself having to dance around the issue of PM in particular, but other issues as well (Biblical gender roles, etc...) when asked in order to avoid causing problems with our sending organization. At the same time, I feel like I cannot in good conscience send a potential convert, at least a seeker, to a church that teaches so many things that are counter to the Bible :\ But then, I don't have much choice. I'm lucky if there's a single church within a 3 hour train ride of me.

I've never considered myself fit or called to be a church planter. I do not feel particularly called to pastor. But lately I have been feeling that a lot of my resistance to this is because I do not want the inevitable confrontation with the church board and missions organization. I hate, HATE, that this is the situation of the world, but, well, it is what it is.

Do I get ordained by a church that doesn't support PM or would require that I vow only legalistic monogamy? (I am strongly against the fallacy that deacons and elders are to have only one wife). Is there a point in seeking 'pastoral classes' that teach unBiblical, Gnostic heresies, just to have the 'license' in my name, so to speak?

Now I feel torn, however. Firstly, even if my wife were to come around and desire PM as well, I don't feel like I really have the freedom to do so while remaining a missionary, unless we are entirely self-supported. Even then, of course, I run into the church problem: to where do I send disciples? If I start a house church or something...where is the line at which I'm just starting a cult? If I don't feel like being a pastor, don't feel fit to lead...but there's no other choice...then what? Do I ignore my misgivings and just do it because it's the only option? I don't feel a clear leading either way. Thankfully, again, this is not an immediate issue. But it WILL be, sooner or later, as long as the conflicting realities of being a missionary in our modern church while also believing in PM exist together. The two cannot coexist peacefully.

Please be gentle. I am not looking for or ready to hear criticism. Judge me all you like, lol, call me weak if you will...yes, I am that. I survive, certainly, by Christ's Grace alone, because I am all too aware of my own failings. I would really like some encouragement, and even more some prayers for wisdom and courage. Because I feel like otherwise I'm fighting an impossible battle between two armies, and I'm the only one out there T.T

 

[Slumberfreeze]

When I make a convert, I have the same problem here in the states. I have nowhere that I would 'send' a new believer. And if I'm being super honest, If I made a convert in a foreign city, and there was a church nearby that was not reaching their community, why would I send my baby christian there? To learn the habits of the spiritually dead? I would put up with a lot of heresy from a live church. (pretty much have to these days, anyways) but a dead church is a dead church. Better a live dog than a dead lion.

Do I get ordained by a church that doesn't support PM or would require that I vow only legalistic monogamy?

Why bother with getting ordained at all? If the Lord wants you to minister in Japan, who can prohibit you? If He wants to use you in Japan, what would the ordination of an organization add to you?

Consider the source, though. I don't trust modern church organizations. I don't see any benefit to seeking their blessing or support. And I wouldn't want to spread their failings abroad either..

(I am strongly against the fallacy that deacons and elders are to have only one wife)

I'll just add that to the bucket, lol

Is there a point in seeking 'pastoral classes' that teach unBiblical, Gnostic heresies, just to have the 'license' in my name, so to speak?

Not in my view. And as resistant as Japan has proven to be to missionaries, my guess is they will require something a little more "from the throne" than the traditions of men that we are currently taught.

Firstly, even if my wife were to come around and desire PM as well, I don't feel like I really have the freedom to do so while remaining a missionary, unless we are entirely self-supported.

I affirm that it is rude in the extreme to enlarge your tent while receiving support from the Church.

Even then, of course, I run into the church problem: to where do I send disciples

Nowhere! They have houses they can meet in, yeah?

If I start a house church or something...where is the line at which I'm just starting a cult?

I say don't start a 'house church'. All that is needful is to create disciples of Jesus. Paul had nowhere to send his converts, they met in each other's homes. He didn't even provide much leadership, and when he left he occasionally sent someone else to appoint elders as an afterthought. If that body of believers is zealous for the Lord Jesus but don't belong to any current organized 'church', they will absolutely be called a cult.

In my estimation that's a success. We have too many churchgoers and not enough cultists in the Church.

If I don't feel like being a pastor, don't feel fit to lead...but there's no other choice...then what?

The first qualification for being an elder/overseer is the desire to serve in that capacity. If you have a heart for the lost, but don't feel like leading, then don't lead. Just save the lost. If you can save the lost, then they are found. He who sees the sparrows when they fall will also see to whatever leadership they need. If you are an evangelist, but not so much an apostle, then just evangelize and trust that God knows best how to deploy His assets, is my gut feeling.

Do I ignore my misgivings and just do it because it's the only option?

Don't ignore your gut! It's usually wiser than the head!

And finally I would say that you should, with all diligence, seek the Lord's answer for what you should do, and with all patience wait for His response.

Acts 16:6-9
6After the Holy Spirit prevented them from speaking the word in the province of Asia, they traveled through the region of Phrygia and Galatia. 7And when they came to the border of Mysia, they tried to enter Bithynia, but the Spirit of Jesus would not permit them. 8So they passed by Mysia and went down to Troas.

9During the night, Paul had a vision of a man of Macedonia standing and pleading with him, “Come over to Macedonia and help us.” 10As soon as Paul had seen the vision, we got ready to leave for Macedonia, concluding that God had called us to preach the gospel to them.

I quote here to remind you that God has an opinion about where you should preach and when, and it may or may not match up with your ideas, whether or not you 'feel a burden' for a particular people.

in my opinion the wisest and most successful tactic will be the one that God ordains and releases you for.

 

[DeathIsNotTheEnd]

I affirm that it is rude in the extreme to enlarge your tent while receiving support from the Church.

I'm not sure if the smiley means you're kidding but, that wasn't really what I was getting at there. I more meant "because they will WITHDRAW it due to PM". Not an argument for/against enlarging a family while under church support. On that I'd apparently also strongly disagree with you: if we have children no one complains, why should they if it is another wife? Missionaries are to be supported if called, a concept I believe is firmly taught in the Word. Not that all should be or must be...our goal as ever, as tentmakers, is to provide for ourselves in that regard (ultimately from God of course).

The first qualification for being an elder/overseer is the desire to serve in that capacity. If you have a heart for the lost, but don't feel like leading, then don't lead. Just save the lost. If you can save the lost, then they are found. He who sees the sparrows when they fall will also see to whatever leadership they need. If you are an evangelist, but not so much an apostle, then just evangelize and trust that God knows best how to deploy His assets, is my gut feeling.

Yeah, that's a good point, and a good reminder, thank you. I suppose my main experience will/would be when the baby convert asks about where to go to meet other Christians or the like...I'm not sure what I'd tell them, and that creates a desire for me to MAKE a place for them to go. But yes I agree, I don't particularly feel at this time that this is my job, though sometimes I wonder if it will be.

I quote here to remind you that God has an opinion about where you should preach and when, and it may or may not match up with your ideas, whether or not you 'feel a burden' for a particular people.

Of course He does. But I believe that He gives us those Godly desires for one reason for another: whether or not we get there is important (He may give them to us to send us in a certain direction), but I think it is our responsibility to pursue them (in a Godly way of course). If He opens or closes doors, like with the disciples in Asia (how ironic!) then so be it.

 

[PeteR]

@EternalDreamer , I pretty much agree with @Slumberfreeze . You do not need an ordination, you do not need a sending body. Those have plusses, but also have minuses.

Study the Word, seek the Father with your whole heart and He'll lead you to how this is supposed to manifest in your life. Don't be afraid to o walk alone!

Blessings for your tender heart that cares for truth and the sheep. May Abba guide you!!

 

[andrew]

Slumber: Dang, brother, preach it!

Dreamer: We are ramping up an equipping ministry here for this very reason: Too many of us too spread out and too isolated to gather on a regular basis, so we're just going to have to start working with each other to start local fellowships on the ground where we are.

I agree with Slumber, no need to call it a 'house church', which is why above I used 'fellowship' (as a nod to koinonia) and 'gather' (as in 'gathering', as a nod to ekklesia).

God willing we'll be able to roll out some specifics at the Summer Conference.

 

[Verifyveritas76]

Is the “teach all things whatsoever I have commanded you” not a part of the “Great Commission?” Not trying to be divisive but I thought that was the next part of “Go!” “Tell!”

I might be wrong here but it seems like the first two without the third, creates an otherwise unneeded position. The role of the shepherd that seeks out the lambs that have been converted and abandoned in the wilderness.

 

[DeathIsNotTheEnd]

Is the “teach all things whatsoever I have commanded you” not a part of the “Great Commission?” Not trying to be divisive but I thought that was the next part of “Go!” “Tell!”

I might be wrong here but it seems like the first two without the third, creates an otherwise unneeded position. The role of the shepherd that seeks out the lambs that have been converted and abandoned in the wilderness.

Wait I'm confused... which is a part of the 'Go, tell!"?

Which first two and third? lol sorry I'm just confused.

But I appreciate everyone's encouragement! Thank you guys

I will of course remain in prayer about this. Sometimes...sometimes life just gets you down, ya know?

 

[Nikud]

@Slumberfreeze I love you man

(I am strongly against the fallacy that deacons and elders are to have only one wife)

Please explain how it is a Fallacy.
http://www.biblicalfamilies.org/forum/posts/152606/

 

[Slumberfreeze]

if we have children no one complains, why should they if it is another wife?

You know, that thought did cross my mind. I'm looking at it from the perspective of a body of believers who send out a missionary and learn that he is adding to his holdings while there. "Huh, it seems Boris the Evangelist took another wife and bought a piece of land while over there... does he still need our money or is he set up now, and we should look toward sponsoring another missionary?"

Because on the one hand if the new wife is adding income to the missionary, perhaps a three income household doesn't need donations.

And if the added wife doesn't have an income... the sponsoring church will have those who feel as if they are paying for their missionary to have a harem. Your average body of believers will be much more understanding about children, I think.

 

[DeathIsNotTheEnd]

Please explain how it is a Fallacy.
http://www.biblicalfamilies.org/forum/posts/152606/

I see your signature, which makes me smile, so I will say that, again "I don't want to debate these things".

NOTE: I just read through the link you gave. I'm a pattern person. I believe God is logical, and operates with consistency, and that the only way to understand His heart in any issue overall is to know Him, and we learn about Him both through life and experience and, primarily, Scripture. I see that argument has already been well hashed-out, so take what I'm about to say with the perspective that, I mean, in the end bro you just have to choose which to agree or disagree with. This is what I've chosen based on what I see overall in Scripture. Either way, as it is not a direct command by God listed in either the 10 or re-discussed by Jesus, I'm going to say that this is a peripheral matter, so we will just have to agree to disagree

However because your signature gives me forewarning, lol, I will honor that and reply simply that that interpretation of the verse proscribing elders and deacons from having more than one wife depends, as I understand it, entirely on the modern translation of the word 'one'. The Greek word used, there and in other contexts, is primarily used to refer to 'one' not as a number counter (one, two, three, etc...) but as but as an indicator of 'position' or 'existence'. That is, it would be better to translate it either 'first' or 'AT LEAST one'. It is only in English translations that we have confused the meaning to mean 'one' as in 'no more than a single one'.

Of course, you (a person, not meaning this as a personal attack Kevin , you could CHOOSE (emphasis that either way, it is a choice of which we believe) to interpret the passage using the 3rd, less-common use of that Greek word (the counter word, in other words, as we typically translate that verse in English). If you (ok I'll start saying 'a person') if a person chooses to read the passage with that meaning, then yes of course, it would apply that way to elders/deacons.

However, in light of God's overall character and the overall teaching of scripture, in light of the fact that Christ is represented as being polygynous, that God within in the Godhead is a Tinity (not binary), I believe that the first translation of that word is clearly the correct one. We must interpret EVERY Scripture passage in light of all the rest of Scripture...not because the Scripture itself is God, but because it tells us who God is. God is a God who designed men to be, if not always called to, at least capable of PM. He models it in His relationship with every single human on earth, with the tribes of Judah, with the houses of Israel and Judah, etc. He calls David a man after His own heart, and the leaders and kings of the OT were as far as I know, all polygynous. All of this tells me the MORE God-reflecting way is PM, and it is only our human fallen nature, and the realities of life in a broken world, that lead monogamy to be more desirable in some circumstances. So, to require that EVERY elder or deacon is strictly monogamous seems to me to be instructing them to a POORER reflection of God as the head of the Church.

Again, I don't want to debate this (pick apart and criticize, especially with condemnation), but if you would like to ask me to elaborate on something or to address how that relates to some other verse out of humility and, as your signature indicates, a desire to learn other viewpoints, I would be happy to explain

You know, that thought did cross my mind. I'm looking at it from the perspective of a body of believers who send out a missionary and learn that he is adding to his holdings while there. "Huh, it seems Boris the Evangelist took another wife and bought a piece of land while over there... does he still need our money or is he set up now, and we should look toward sponsoring another missionary?"
Because on the one hand if the new wife is adding income to the missionary, perhaps a three income household doesn't need donations.
And if the added wife doesn't have an income... the sponsoring church will have those who feel as if they are paying for their missionary to have a harem. Your average body of believers will be much more understanding about children, I think.

Again, I'm a bit confused. I think you're saying...from the perspective of people sending out missionaries it doesn't seem right? I agree...I just think that's a BAD thing, and a problem, and a poor reflection on our culture's approach to missions in general, lol. For anyone interested in a better overall explanation than I can give on that topic I'd highly recommend the Perspectives In Global Missions class

 

[DeathIsNotTheEnd]

@Kevin

Ok so reading from the VERY beginning of that whole thread, lol, it seems to me that you might have been upset with my calling it a fallacy. I suppose I ought to put a similar disclaimer as yours at the bottom of my signature

That is: I say things as I see them. Sometimes I use hyperbole to get a point across. Especially (as in the case of this thread) when I'm just looking for some comfort, and don't intend serious debate or analysis, I am even MORE likely to 'speak from the gut' and use strong language to carry my point rather than carefully phrase every single word.

If my word offended you, I'm sorry, I did not mean to say that those whole CHOOSE (I'm going to emphasize that word until everyone's eyes bleed though to interpret it as 'a single' are wrong. Either way, that's still 'Paul's ideas for elders and deacons' and as the definition of those positions, the determination of whether Paul's instructions are still applicable, etc etc...has SO many other aspects to argue, I think it doesn't REALLY matter. "If a man's conscience condemns him" and all that. If you or anyone find it makes more sense to you, or better helps you see and understand God's character, that teachers SHOULD only have a max of 1 wife...ok, go for it! I disagree. And as it is a peripheral matter, I hope to not be condemned for my alternate view

 

[Nikud]

If my word offended you, I'm sorry, I did not mean to say that those whole CHOOSE (I'm going to emphasize that word until everyone's eyes bleed though to interpret it as 'a single' are wrong.

I don't offend easily, unless your flip flopping or speaking as if you have absolute authority over my CHOICES, your not going to. I just like clarification.

 

[Nikud]

Again, I don't want to debate this (pick apart and criticize, especially with condemnation), but if you would like to ask me to elaborate on something or to address how that relates to some other verse out of humility and, as your signature indicates, a desire to learn other viewpoints, I would be

No condemnation just intrest, sometimes I come across wrong hence the the disclaimer.

Edit: I didn't mean to post the video, the tablets making decisions for me again.

 

[Mojo]

@EternalDreamer, are you speaking of practicality or theoretically?

1. If poly is a belief, but you have no second wife, or prospective, you have no practical issue to overcome. It's just a belief/conviction at this point. If you don't tell your mission board about a belief, what's the conundrum?
2. If you don't preach on it specifically, what is the issue? Do you feel the need to bust out your bible and start preaching on this specifically? What benefit is this doctrine to a new believer? Aren't there other, bigger fish to fry with a new believer? I wouldn't start discipling a new believer with eschatology or polygyny.
3. Does your sending organization have a stated policy against belief in polygyny? If you are discipling a new believer, and you come across the story of Jacob, are obligated to preach against it? Must you call him a sinner?

There's an old adage that it's easier to ask forgiveness than permission. If you feel it necessary to stay within your sending denomination, but don't want to muzzle your belief, would you be able to push the envelope until someone calls you out on it? At that point, you can recant (if you feel the need to stay) or be prepared to leave.

This is Biblical Families, but polygyny isn't the only issue in the bible that your disciples need to learn.

 

[DeathIsNotTheEnd]

@EternalDreamer, are you speaking of practicality or theoretically?

1. If poly is a belief, but you have no second wife, or prospective, you have no practical issue to overcome. It's just a belief/conviction at this point. If you don't tell your mission board about a belief, what's the conundrum?
2. If you don't preach on it specifically, what is the issue? Do you feel the need to bust out your bible and start preaching on this specifically? What benefit is this doctrine to a new believer? Aren't there other, bigger fish to fry with a new believer? I wouldn't start discipling a new believer with eschatology or polygyny.
3. Does your sending organization have a stated policy against belief in polygyny? If you are discipling a new believer, and you come across the story of Jacob, are obligated to preach against it? Must you call him a sinner?

There's an old adage that it's easier to ask forgiveness than permission. If you feel it necessary to stay within your sending denomination, but don't want to muzzle your belief, would you be able to push the envelope until someone calls you out on it? At that point, you can recant (if you feel the need to stay) or be prepared to leave.

This is Biblical Families, but polygyny isn't the only issue in the bible that your disciples need to learn.

Oh, certainly.
No, I am speaking of theoretically.

You're right, at the moment it's not a practical issue. My main thing is twofold:

1. I'd like it to BECOME a practical issue at some point lol
2. I'm not sure how to respond when people ask me about it.

At the moment, it's primarily the second. I know what I'll say to nonbelievers or new disciples. What I'm less sure of is what I'll say if word gets back to the missions board about it :\

 

[Mojo]

BTW- I'm not urging you to recant, or be untrue to your beliefs, just maybe not so forward when it's not a practical issue at this point.

Does your board have a stated policy or doctrinal statement on it? You can't be accused of breaking a rule that doesn't exist.


I'm not trying to discourage you, but I just don't want you to get too excited and act too quickly over a belief at this point. A second wife doesn't just pop up out of thin air. I would just say to be prepared to go solo at any moment, but why push it if you like your sending board and you are seeing fruit.

 

[Slumberfreeze]

What I'm less sure of is what I'll say if word gets back to the missions board about it :\

Pre-empt them. Strike without warning. Call a meeting with them before they hear of it. Maximize chaos. Quote Sir Mix a lot lyric with impassioned seriousness. Leave before they respond. Impede their ability to follow you. Have your wife set fire to their cars while you're at the meeting.

Some days later, when they hear that you are in a poly relationship, it will not change where you stand with them.

 

[DeathIsNotTheEnd]

Pre-empt them. Strike without warning. Call a meeting with them before they hear of it. Maximize chaos. Quote Sir Mix a lot lyric with impassioned seriousness. Leave before they respond. Impede their ability to follow you. Have your wife set fire to their cars while you're at the meeting.

Some days later, when they hear that you are in a poly relationship, it will not change where you stand with them.

LOL

Yeahhh. That was definitely my first thought but something about it just seemed...I dunno...maybe not the best?

I'm not trying to discourage you, but I just don't want you to get too excited and act too quickly over a belief at this point. A second wife doesn't just pop up out of thin air. I would just say to be prepared to go solo at any moment, but why push it if you like your sending board and you are seeing fruit.

I hear you. No, they do not have one that I know of or have seen...certainly not in any of the material we've been asked to review or sign.

 

[Mojo]

At the very least, challenge them, if they challenge you.

If you really like them, show them that you are standing on a solid, biblical argument. Show them it's them rejecting you, not you rejecting them. At the very least, you will most likely get an audience to influence before being sent your packing papers.

All the while, be prepared to go solo; it's not likely to go so well.

 

[Verifyveritas76]

Wait I'm confused... which is a part of the 'Go, tell!"?

Which first two and third? lol sorry I'm just confused.

But I appreciate everyone's encouragement! Thank you guys

I will of course remain in prayer about this. Sometimes...sometimes life just gets you down, ya know?

Go ye therefore, and [tell] teach all nations, baptizing them in the nameof the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: