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Ownership of People as Property

CecilW

Member
Real Person
Male
An opinion piece ...

When I was a youngster. Ok, when I was MORE of a youngster, in a Christian elementary school, the school choir enjoyed singing, "... and we'll all be gay when Johnny comes marching home", a patriotic song from the Civil War era.

Nowadays that song is defunct, which is a shame, as it was a fun song with a lively tune. Why? Modern English usage has turned away from the definition of the term that was acceptable, to one which gives the song a vastly different and unacceptable meaning.

I propose for your consideration that a similar situation exists when describing human relationships, where a possessive, such as "my" or "mine" is used, and that it is particularly troublesome in modern usage when the word "property" is used.

IN MODERN USAGE, the word "property" carries the implication of being inanimate, or at least having no will or rights, no volition -- all such belonging to the owner, and the property being, at best, some sort of animal, such as a dog or goat or horse. Careful students of the Bible understand that the Bible's definition differs materially. Yet those to whom we generally speak are UNLIKELY to share our depth of understanding, such that if we use words which imply "property", mis-communication is almost certain to occur.

This holds true equally true when we refer to slavery. Biblical slavery bore much more similarity to signing up for a stint in a peacetime military than to that institution which stained America's national honor for so many years. Yet, referring to it favorably in general conversation causes mis-communication and even rejection of Christianity to occur.

So let me remind us all, while BiblicalFamilies.org DOES espouse the Bible and the Bible only (sola scriptura) as our rule of faith, we do NOT espouse unholy ideas created by technically accurate mis-communication due to the changing nature of language!!!

Now, most BF forums are wide open to the public. Anyone, including automatic cataloguing bots, can and do read them. This includes people of other faiths entirely, who will definitely NOT have the depth of understanding of the Bible to understand when these sort of terms are used.

Imagine that you are a Moslem or Hindu, religions in which the man has an absolute right to KILL his wife under various circumstances, and to hold Old American South style slaves. Now, imagine that you read about the need to respect a man's property rights regarding his wife. Or a lady referring to her husband as her "master". Will accurate or inaccurate communication occur?

If I'm the reader, no problem. If the reader is a BF member who has been around a while, and has learned about the Bible teachings, probably no problem, though if they are new to the author, they may check that his or her usage is Biblical rather than modern. And we do have private members only forums where it would be appropriate to expect that readers share the same clear understanding of concepts and usage.

But in the open, general forum? No such supposition is justified!

Worse, there ARE other PM friendly religious groups whose usage of the terms DOES more closely match modern rather than Biblical usage. AND they even call themselves Christian, as do we. At least some of the FLDS, for instance, accept their prophet's right to dissolve marriages and redistribute wives to other men, like so much, well, PROPERTY, as he sees fit! BF is very serious about NOT being associated with those ideas!!! To do so would be mistaken!

Do you see the issue and the concern?

And then along comes me, newly tasked with being a moderator, a job I did NOT ask for and dislike intensely, but it must be done. And I'm already waking up at 3:15 AM worrying about how to deal with issues like this where WELL MEANING friends, whom I truly Love, Respect, and LIKE, are inadvertently MIS-communicating our message; and what I have to do about it, and my ulcer acts up and I have to get up out of bed and chew on TUMS (vile things!) and then try to get back to sleep eventually just in time to have to get up.

So please, dear hearts, take pity upon me and my sleep! When writing on the open forum, consider what your wording will mean to someone who does NOT share your understanding of Biblical terminology, and write so that they will clearly and accurately understand your meaning. For example, that we are ALL free in Christ! Free to choose to submit or not. Free to follow or not. Free to live in families ordered according to Biblical principle or not. Free to make mistakes or not. None of us blind, unthinking chattel, inanimate property of another and without volition.
 
AaaaHhhhhh Cecil......One little minor ittsy bittsy correction.....The song you spoke about..........Well it was not WWII.......it was the War for Southern Independence or Civil War as most people call it........As far as the rest of your post....spot on my friend.....People have taken things way out of hand when reference to scripture is made and replaced most if not all the meanings of words used there with current understandings. It can make for a bad and grave misunderstanding of what some one may post here.






union and Confederate Civil war re-enactor! :cool:
 
Chaplain said:
AaaaHhhhhh Cecil......One little minor ittsy bittsy correction.....The song you spoke about..........Well it was not WWII.......it was the War for Southern Independence or Civil War as most people call it........
Northern Aggression? ;)

REALLY? That old? Excellent. Thx, Chaplain. Amending my OP now.
 
Understood. From now on I will simply call my husband my "husband". I was just trying to follow Sarah's example in the Bible. :)
 
Opposing opinion? Though I understand the reasons specified, and do not object since it is not my place to do so, I feel it necessary to point something out:

In my own personal experience people have been twisting what I write for their own purpose since the days of pre-WWW Usenet news flame wars. Long ago I learned that if someone doesn't like your opinion or position on a matter, they will misconstrue and amplify, or simply clip the full explanation to that which is out of context to arrive at a 'sound bite' that 'proves' their point. It's as natural for us as sin. Indeed, I'm completely convinced that in a significant fraction of such cases, the perpetrator is not even aware they've done so because they are unable to see through their bias. I've caught myself doing this many times in the past, though since the Lord has been in my life I care to try much harder not to do so.

Thus, I would argue that instead of actually communicating and directing that it be civil, we settle for no communication and persistence of misunderstanding. Indeed, the reason people do not get upset when we 'spin' the message is because in its 'spun' state it bears little resemblance to our mind's image when we wrote it. Sure, everyone privy to our understanding will see the similarity and agree upon our meaning, but the trouble is that the folks not privy to our understanding are highly unlikely to catch the same understanding. Consequently, this feels deceptive and nags my conscience, much like when an employer asks me to change the scales on a graph and use a complex number scheme or obscure units so that the degradation rate of a product's lifetime (the slope of the curve) doesn't look as steep anymore. Only then does everyone like it, because we can live with an intentional miscommunication that is business-friendly. Still truth, but buyer beware!

Perhaps also noteworthy, the Truth will always be folly to those that are perishing: http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1 Corinthians 1:18-25&version=ESV. Thus, the question in my mind is who does this forum serve?

Just my $0.02.
 
Not a problem, Diener. MOST of us understand the Biblical reference and precedence, and may actually admire you.

And Oreslag, I understand and value your point of view.

However, in the public forums it cannot be presupposed that our readers share the frame of reference to understand. And this site is NOT interested in being misunderstood!!! There are ideas running around that we explicitly and vehemently want no part of!

Further, the public forums are primarily intended as educational, not debate. Many, perhaps most, of our new readers come here to learn without the extensive background in Biblical research that will differentiate concepts and terminology that are inappropriate and unsavory in modern usage from their Biblical and beneficial versions.

Hopefully, the service we provide changes that as they read, so that when they DO run across them in scripture, they can see the goodness of God even in those times & topics. Certainly, it is there. But that outcome is not achieved by saying, "Tough. Up to YOU to know what I mean from MY frame of reference. Go away blessed or cursed, understanding or misunderstanding, I don't care."

Thus the responsibility is upon us, the writers. Yes, there are those who will intentionally misunderstand regardless. Our job is to limit the misunderstanding to ONLY those.

We do have other private Member Only forums where a Biblical frame of reference CAN be expected, and thus where your terminology usage is absolutely appropriate, perhaps even appreciated.

Again, thank you both for your participation in BiblicalFamilies.org. We enjoy and value you both. For whatever it is worth, this thread was not aimed at either of you specifically or exclusively. It has been needed for a while ...
 
And for the record, we (Diener and I) value, respect, and enjoy the service BF provides on the public forums. Thus, we thank you and those who run BF for your service in what must seem an endless effort in herding cats.
 
So I just thought of a simple picture that might aptly describe the BF forum strategy:

Public forums == mission to the world
Private forums == ministry to God's people
Altogether == service to God by striving to promote righteousness wholly in His creation

Accurate picture?
 
Bingo!

Hopefully wrapped in "... and a good time was had by all!"
 
Oreslag said:
service in what must seem an endless effort in herding cats.

Naw! Herding cats? Squirrels? Horseflies? No sweat!

But herding Patriarchs ...!!! That'll drive a man to sudoku! *grin*
 
Fairlight said:
That's because a real Patriarch can't be herded! ;)
but they can be required to meet some minimum standards ;)
 
Biblical slavery bore much more similarity to signing up for a stint in a peacetime military than to that institution which stained America's national honor for so many years. Yet, referring to it favorably in general conversation causes mis-communication and even rejection of Christianity to occur.
Does slavery always come by force or can it come voluntarily?
 
Jim said:
Biblical slavery bore much more similarity to signing up for a stint in a peacetime military than to that institution which stained America's national honor for so many years. Yet, referring to it favorably in general conversation causes mis-communication and even rejection of Christianity to occur.
Does slavery always come by force or can it come voluntarily?
In the Bible, both.
 
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