Polygyny and American Individualism

[southernphotini]

What isn’t recognized nowadays is ownership. Ownership of the family, starting with the wife/wives.
With ownership comes responsibility.
No man should correct another man’s wife. If there is a problem that needs to be addressed, go to her owner. She, and everything that she does, is his responsibility. But Yah’s method of dealing with things isn’t taught today. That doesn’t prove that it doesn’t exist.
The husband is responsible for what his family does, even if society doesn’t recognize it.

On a forum such as this, though, there is no male nor female. Of course we will be a bit gentler with females (hopefully ) but statements made will stand on their own, open to direct correction/criticism.

In the same way, wives and children bear the responsibility of the husband's actions. If he isn't a leader acting in the best interest of his family, they suffer. To own is a great responsibility.

Which I suppose most men today seem to prefer to "rent" in a sense....

 

[steve]

In the same way, wives and children bear the responsibility of the husband's actions. If he isn't a leader acting in the best interest of his family, they suffer. To own is a great responsibility.

I think that you mean that they bear the effects of his actions, the responsibility is his.
He is responsible for their actions though, he cannot just shrug his shoulders and pretend that he doesn’t own them.

Which I suppose most men today seem to prefer to "rent" in a sense....

I don’t think that they give it that much thought, they haven’t even been taught ownership.
They just enjoy the freedom from any and all responsibility (food and shelter, etc)

 

[MemeFan]

A victim bears the consequences of someone else's sin. That's my point.

Sin is not individualistic. It affects more than the offender. Both OT and NT demonstrate that over and over.

Disagreement was over who is to be punished for sin.

 

[MemeFan]

Individualism is Christian value because Lord values us and judge us as individuals. Lord doesn't judge whole families nor values whole families.

Everybody answers his own sins, not his families sins.

This idea comes from this video:

First 15 minutes is enough to get idea. Author is basing on following book:

Inventing the Individual: The Origins of... by Siedentop, Larry

Buy Inventing the Individual: The Origins of Western Liberalism 1 by Siedentop, Larry (ISBN: 9780141009544) from Amazon's Book Store. Everyday low prices and free delivery on eligible orders.

www.amazon.co.uk

In ancient culture basic unit of society is family, not individual. In Western civilization individual is basis of society. We think in terms of individual rights and duties and responsibilities, not in terms of family duties, rights and responsibilities. We justify ourselves in front of others, we don't justify our families.

It was scholastics (especially Saint Thomas) who has created idea of natural law with it's basis on individual. Why has this idea happened in Western world. China, Japan, India are more collectivist than West. I believe it is because of Christianity. We stand in front of Lord as individuals, not somebody representing their families.

 

[southernphotini]

This idea comes from this video:

First 15 minutes is enough to get idea. Author is basing on following book:

Inventing the Individual: The Origins of... by Siedentop, Larry

Buy Inventing the Individual: The Origins of Western Liberalism 1 by Siedentop, Larry (ISBN: 9780141009544) from Amazon's Book Store. Everyday low prices and free delivery on eligible orders.

www.amazon.co.uk

In ancient culture basic unit of society is family, not individual. In Western civilization individual is basis of society. We think in terms of individual rights and duties and responsibilities, not in terms of family duties, rights and responsibilities. We justify ourselves in front of others, we don't justify our families.

It was scholastics (especially Saint Thomas) who has created idea of natural law with it's basis on individual. Why has this idea happened in Western world. China, Japan, India are more collectivist than West. I believe it is because of Christianity. We stand in front of Lord as individuals, not somebody representing their families.

Aquinas? He's a pretty latecomer to be creating a foundation.

The first century Christians and Second Temple Jews were part of the ancient understanding of family, but the Psalms makes it clear this doesn't negate the individual. Rather the individual exists in a context, never alone.

 

[rockfox]

Consequnces of sins affect others. Not who is responsible for them in legal sense.

And yet we see in the Bible people repenting of the sin's of their fathers and grandfathers. I have found in life that those who are unwilling to repent of the sins of their own generation, much less that of prior ones, are likewise unrepentant of their own sins. Such repentance is probably key to avoiding a repeat of those sins in our own lives.

One need only look at the opening chapters of Isaiah, or to compare that and Romans 1 to society today, to see how through the multitude of sins God condemns a people. Yes there is a remnant. Those are the repentant ones.

The first century Christians and Second Temple Jews were part of the ancient understanding of family, but the Psalms makes it clear this doesn't negate the individual. Rather the individual exists in a context, never alone.

There is the individual. But we also see throughout the scriptures the patriarchal authority of the father.

 

[MemeFan]

Aquinas? He's a pretty latecomer to be creating a foundation.

The first century Christians and Second Temple Jews were part of the ancient understanding of family, but the Psalms makes it clear this doesn't negate the individual. Rather the individual exists in a context, never alone.

My understanding of history is that Aquinas did develop first complete natural right theory.

If by "individuals exist in a context", you mean they are part of society, well, that is obvious.

Question is what is basic unit of society? In individual society, individual can't be sacrificed for "greater good". In communist and Nazi society, individual doesn't have rights, only duties to society.

 

[southernphotini]

My understanding of history is that Aquinas did develop first complete natural right theory.

If by "individuals exist in a context", you mean they are part of society, well, that is obvious.

Question is what is basic unit of society? In individual society, individual can't be sacrificed for "greater good". In communist and Nazi society, individual doesn't have rights, only duties to society.

You’ve leapfrogged to Nazi’s so I don’t think any further conversation will be productive.

 

[MemeFan]

You’ve leapfrogged to Nazi’s so I don’t think any further conversation will be productive.

WTF????

I'm creating contrast between individualist and collectivist societies. Extremes help see contrast.
Is there any more collectivist society than communist or nazi society? And they had don't zero regards for individuals.

 

[RemnantResilience]

Perhaps consider Sodom and Gomorrah or the societies that the Israelites were commanded to destroy completely, the judgement being on the group as a whole, while consisting of individuals had become so abhorrent none were worth leaving alive. The judgement falling on all rather than some.

 

[steve]

Perhaps consider Sodom and Gomorrah or the societies that the Israelites were commanded to destroy completely, the judgement being on the group as a whole, while consisting of individuals had become so abhorrent none were worth leaving alive. The judgement falling on all rather than some.

Also the Flood, how many thousands of innocent children punished for the sins of the adults?

 

[MemeFan]

Perhaps consider Sodom and Gomorrah or the societies that the Israelites were commanded to destroy completely, the judgement being on the group as a whole, while consisting of individuals had become so abhorrent none were worth leaving alive. The judgement falling on all rather than some.

There are two possible explanations why group is punished.

1. Whole group is disaster, so then all deserved as per @RemnantResilience
2. Representative does sin and all people under him are punished as implied by @southernphotini (Exodus)

 

[rockfox]

Question is what is basic unit of society? In individual society, individual can't be sacrificed for "greater good". In communist and Nazi society, individual doesn't have rights, only duties to society.

False dichotomy. And guilt by association.

Individuals are sacrificed in our society all the time. Just look at abortion. Or war.

If you wish to discuss ideas, leave out the propaganda trigger words.

 

[MemeFan]

False dichotomy. And guilt by association.

Individuals are sacrificed in our society all the time. Just look at abortion. Or war.

If you wish to discuss ideas, leave out the propaganda trigger words.

No society is fully individualistic or collectivistic. It is best to thing of individual-collective spectrum.

Actually, abortion is mark of individualistic society. It is defended on basis of individual rights (precisely woman's rights). In collective society abortion would be defended as something good for whole society.

What I find funny is claim of America being hugely individualistic, while society is becoming more collectivist. Consider woke. If you are white, paternalistic white male you are absolute sin. It is judgement based on which group man belongs. In individualistic society each man would be judged on his own worth.

And about that Nazi word. I never called anybody here Nazi or something similar. I was only pointing that societies with totalitarian ideologies are the most collectivist. Please, answer to core/point of my argument, not using some excuse to avoid them.

 

[rockfox]

What I find funny is claim of America being hugely individualistic, while society is becoming more collectivist. Consider woke. If you are white, paternalistic white male you are absolute sin. It is judgement based on which group man belongs. In individualistic society each man would be judged on his own worth.

And yet the same parties defending abortion on an individualist basis are the ones most pushing the collectivist judgement of Whites. These same types will scream for moral relativism and 'don't judge people' the same time they pass judgement upon Christians and Christian beliefs.

There is a lot more going on here than just individualism vs. collectivism. That's a lens that doesn't even work for analyzing what's going on.

A healthy society requires a mix of individualism and collectivism. Look at national security for example. Soldiers dying to defend the nation is the ultimate in collectivism: self sacrifice for the greater good of your people. This most extreme example is also the most Christlike.

 

[MemeFan]

And yet the same parties defending abortion on an individualist basis are the ones most pushing the collectivist judgement of Whites. These same types will scream for moral relativism and 'don't judge people' the same time they pass judgement upon Christians and Christian beliefs.

There is a lot more going on here than just individualism vs. collectivism. That's a lens that doesn't even work for analyzing what's going on.

Yea, it is strange situation. Collectivists using individualistic arguments. They can't use anything else because historically speaking West was individualistic. Arguments will change with time.