Discussion in 'Other Biblical Issues' started by WLS78, Dec 2, 2016.
Me too! Ha ha! I only had to read it twice though
Pre mid or post? I've always taken the stance it's better to hedge your bets and plan for post.
Love the thoughts or thread. This is one of my favorite topics. I'm going to refrain from listing where I am on the subject because I view it as being like the joke about the rooster laying an egg on the ridge of the barn, then asking the question which side does it roll down. It's a trick ? Based upon a biblically incorrect definition of the word tribulation.
Q: Where is the last mention of the word tribulation in the book of Rev?
What type of tribulation is it? In what sequence does it appear in Rev? Seals,Trumpets, Bowls?
What is the first mention of the word wrath in Rev? Location?
Examine 1 Thess 3:3. We are appointed to ______? (Greek & Eng)
Examine 1 Thess 5:9. We are not appointed to ______? (Greek & Eng)
What are the Greek words describing how Jesus called Lazarus from the grave
Also compare the English words 'great sound' Matt 24:31to Greek.
Examine the interlinear at Rev 7:2 for similarities.
Make a list of the imminent signs beginning at Matt 24:29
Read the Book of Rev till you find the corresponding passage. There's only one.
Matt 24:29 begins with the phrase, 'Immediately after the tribulation of those days . . . ' the phrase doesn't end at tribulation as some would have you think. That idea presents the following imminent signs out of context. When you find out where 'those days' are in the preceding passage you will have the time context.
Examine 2 Thess 2:1-3. Vrs. 1 in interlinear. You are looking for the Greek word for 'gathering together'. This word in its simplest form is defined as a super gathering.
Compare to Matt. 24:31 in interlinear. Same day.
Once you have gone through these questions you will see that the current timelines given and the resulting terminology are the results of a couple of men who were serious students of the Word but started building on an unproven foundation and this has resulted in mass confusion and angst in the church.
The funny thing is that once you study past some of the misinformation or misunderstandings presented by this incorrect foundation, all three days end up being the same day.
Btw. Lots more info. This is just foundational.
There is no such thing as "mid-trib". The most common error I see is that people think that God's wrath is part of the tribulation of the saints. There is the tribulation period, then the resurrection/rapture, and finally God's wrath is poured out. So, you can claim to be pre-trib (which will generate a lecture and strong debate from me) or post-trib. Many people do not realize that Revelation repeats itself, we go through the first eleven chapters and then get an instant replay from another perspective starting in chapter 12.
Chapter 1 & 12 Beginnings
Chapter 6 & 13 Tribulation
Chapter 7 & 14 Rapture
Chapter 8 & 16 Wrath of God
Chapter 17 Babylon
Chapter 19 Armageddon
Chapter 20 White Throne Millennial Reign
Chapter 21 New Heaven and Earth
Nicely put. I'll be off for a couple of days but I'll get back to this when I can.
A prophet that I know of, who has been completely accurate with the things he says God has shown him, was taken into heaven and he saw Yeshua and Yahweh talking about end times. Yeshua asked him if he wanted to see how things were going to transpire in the end days and he agreed. After seeing all these things he was then told that he could not reveal any of the information that he was just shown. He did however make the statement that he has heard many different versions of what people think will transpire in the last days, and said that none of them matched what he had been shown. So... it appears that we are debating and arguing over who will be the least wrong
Are you free/ok to link me to him? I'd like to know more
His name is Sadhu Sundar Selvaraj he has released a number of videos on this YouTube channel:
I found his prophetic insight rather interesting for 2017:
I have also watched him at prophetic conferences such as these Lancaster Prophetic Conferences:
He is one of many modern day prophets I pay attention to.
Amo 3:7 For the Lord GOD does nothing without revealing his secret to his servants the prophets.
Thx. Ill check him out
I've just become aware of new (to me) information that has totally changed my perspective of the "end times". Based on what I have learned from a number of different teachers and prophets...
There is about to be a great war along the Euphrates and Israel will suffer greatly. Trump will support Israel and help them enter into a seven year covenant to bring peace which will also create the Palestinian State. This will allow the third temple to be built, but will be a terrible mistake. After three and a half years of "peace" the tribulation will begin when the antichrist nullifies the covenant - and you probably already know the rest of the story...
Get busy with the work of the kingdom folks...we have about eight years before we see Yeshua in the clouds.
Very plausible scenario Scarecrow. Will certainly watch events unfolding with this possibility in mind. Thanks.
Though I recognize that the peace treaty between the antichrist and Israel is one of the views that are taught by virtually everyone in prophecy today, IMHO it has become one of the sacred cows of eschatology. The foundation that this cow is fastened upon is Daniel 9:26,27
And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.
And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.
This passage is used to predict prophetically the Second Coming of Christ without examining its fulfillment within the context of its original fulfillment. I am fully aware that a particular prophecy can have multiple fulfillments, usually in groups of 3, however, the proponents of this peace treaty have failed to thoroughly examine the text.
Some things that become obvious when examining this text.
1 This passage is sadly lacking in evidence connecting it to Matt. 24:15. Jesus quotes Daniel as saying that you would see him standing in the holy place, also mentioned in Mark 13. To connect these dots with Daniel would take you to Daniel 11:31.
2Messiah is cut off after 62 weeks, not 69
3 A son of the king who could also be the commanding general would come with many people and destroy the city and the sanctuary. This was fulfilled in time context by Titus, both the son of Ceasar Vespasian and the commanding general of Rome's forces in Israel
4Unto the end of the war desolations are determined. Also referred to elsewhere as consumation.
5The covenant being confirmed is a phrase that means that the covenant is fulfilled, not begun.
6 A type of sacrifice will be made to end because of something that happens in the midst of the week.
7 There will be an overspreading of abominations which will result in the desolations (presumably mentioned above)
8 The desolations will continue until consummation, and the desolations will be poured upon the desolate
In the original time context fulfillment (at or around the time of the Messiah being cut off) there are only 2 candidates to fulfill these passages, Christ and Titus. Some of them will be fulfilled by one and the rest by the other. In a parallel prophecy, each instance must be fulfilled exactly as stated with no deviation or it cannot be considered prophecy. So when I look at the original fulfillment this is what I find
Christ is cut off. The destruction of the prince that comes (approximately 40 yrs later) is the result of an overspreading of abominations. At the time of His crucifixion you find the fulfillment of multiple covenants being fulfilled because they all were pointed to the same event in the future, the Seed of Abraham being sacrificed as a substitution for man to provide restored fellowship with God. What feast day was fulfilled by this sacrifice? Passover, also depicted in the first 3 chapters of Leviticus as 5 separate sacrifices known as the sacrifice and oblation mentioned above. The meat and drink offering (Pescha). The sacrifice was divided into 3 sacrifices, the Sin offfering, the Burnt offering, and the Trespass offering or Peace offering. Ever wonder why there were 3 crosses that night? (Though I know their crucifixion had nothing to do with the atonement for sin). The other two crosses were there to provide a picture. One of them rejected Christ and became the picture of the Burnt offering, the other made his acceptable peace offering by acknowledging his trespass and Christ of course was the Sin offering (the meat and drink offering completed the evening before). In the midst of the week, Christ fulfilled the covenant and caused the Passover sacrifice to cease according to Hebrews. Did that stop the slaughter of innocent lambs? No. For that reason, that God's perfect lamb was considered an insufficient sacrifice, the succeeding Passover sacrifices became a stench in Gods nostrils that he could not stomach. The only way to stop it became to destroy the temple where it was being offered, thus Titus. According to Josephus, Titus never stepped foot in the Holy Place as the flames were so hot when he got there he couldn't approach. There was also no treaty or covenant ever proposed between Titus and the Jews in Jerusalem much less fulfilled.
So in conclusion, Christ fulfilled the covenant, not Titus. Christ's death in the midst of the week was the reason for the sacrifice and the oblation to cease. The rejection of Him was the catalyst for the destruction of the temple by Titus. Until the war (I believe Armageddon) it will be desolate (without the shekinah glory of God). That being said, due to the references in Daniel 11:31 (also chapters 8&12) I believe that the Temple will be rebuilt and the Jews will attempt to restart Temple sacrifices thus resulting in the antichrist stopping the daily sacrifices (dedication sacrifices).
To utilize this passage to prove an end times peace treaty is simply a wall built with untempered mortar.
I think you would find this interesting...I did...
I have a fairly different view on last days than anyone I know. I believe in a Post Great Trib Rapture followed by an 3 1/2 years of wrath then 3 1/2 yrs of great wrath ending in Armageddon.
I have found this perspective to be easily defendable from Scripture as opposed to the traditional Pre, Mid or Post Trib positions. After studying every position available in depth for about a year, I put my mountain of text books away, emptied my theological bucket, and got out my Bible, my Strongs and my Bible app and just started studying. After the next six months of focused study where I avoided any other input aside from the Holy Spirit, I had managed to begin to put together some foundational truths based on 4 passages that became the four cornerstones for my search. They were Matt. 24, 2 Thess. 2, Daniel and Revelation. From that point, the next 2 1/2 years of my life were spent in a systematic ransacking of Scripture in all of my free time focused solely on this topic. To know this topic thoroughly is to understand the rest of the Bible. Everything connects, every story has meaning and impact. Nothing is without meaning.
Thanks for the link. I truly enjoyed it aside from the fundraising efforts. He's the first one Ive ever heard that had the same view. Not sure when he did the vid but I came to this about 2014 and have just started telling about it from about 2015 in some Bible studies I was invited to teach. It's nice to have another witness to these facts although the Scripture is a pretty good witness of itself.
He seems to be very knowledgeable about the subject and is apparently well versed in history, however, there are a few holes in his timeline of both Daniel's 70 weeks and the Passover week.
His layout of the Passover week has some issues with the start and the finish, also the observance of firstfruits and the count following to Pentecost. Also the dating of Ezra's return (457 BC)as placed by Ussher is highly suspect. And he has his century wrong on the completion of the second temple (515 BC not 415 BC)
He is correct though that the Gregorian Calendar is jacked up as only a Muslim cleric tasked with reconciling a Hebrew culture to a misunderstood Good Friday could do some 1550 years later!
I look forward to reading the book
He! He! Thanks for the vote of confidence. I've been working on it for the last couple of years. Hopefully this year I'll be able to get the first in the series out. I tried putting it all into one book but it was so much info I realized it would be too much to digest as some of it is new perspective. Then I tried condensing the info but still couldn't get it into a small enough format so now I'm trying to put it into bite sized books of about 70-120 pages each. Hopefully by summer I'll be able to publish an ebook and go from there.
So, I was raised pretrib, but for a number of years, I'd been viewing both pretrib and prewrath as viable options. This year, after my pastor did a (standard pretrib) series on Revelation, I came to the realization that if I had to argue for one view or the other, I'd be much more comfortable arguing the prewrath view, rather than the other way around. I guess that makes me prewrath, at least until I hear a better viewpoint.
Two things were instrumental in my initial admission of the possibility of prewrath. First, I saw my Dad (who had taught me pretrib) switch to that viewpoint, though I initially tried to argue him out of it. Secondly, I decided to perform my own harmonization of the relevant passages (Matt 24, Revelation, Daniel's 70th week) without assuming any preconceived notions, to see what I got. Like VV76, for purposes of accuracy, I prefer to not use the term "tribulation" to refer to this entire time period (though it sounds like VV76 also takes a historic rather than a futurist view of the 70th week. To be fair, you'll note that I'm not very firm on the placement of the starting or ending of this period either).
My harmonization is:
"Covenant strengthened with many" == start of 70th week. This could come before, during, or after birth pains. What this means is unclear, and it probably won't be recognized, since Jesus & Revelation don't mention it
Beginning of birth pains (possibly matching the first 4 seals? Also, possibly starting before the 70th week begins)
Abomination of Desolation (midpoint of 70th week, and the first recognizable event that Jesus says occurs when the end comes.) == The man is sin is revealed
Great Tribulation (saints persecuted and martyred, these days will be shortened) == 5th seal
Cosmic Signs (sun darkened, moon turns to blood, the world will hide in terror) == 6th seal
The Gathering (in the clouds with angels, trumpet) == interlude between 6th and 7th seals (Rev. 7) == Rapture in Thessalonians
Jesus' account ends here, but Revelation continues the story...
7th seal -> 7 trumpets -> 7 bowls -> Armageddon == Wrath of God
Daniel's 70th week probably ends sometime during the previous sequence of events. Possibly after the 6th trumpet/2nd woe, when the two witnesses are recalled to heaven after 3 1/2 years.
What convinced me from this that pretrib is an untenable view is that both Matthew and Revelation depict a multitude of saints being gathered immediately after the 6th seal (cosmic signs). The Pretrib view is that Matthew 24's gathering is at the end of the 7 years, when Christ sets foot on Earth at Armageddon, but this timing doesn't fit with Revelation, which shows that gathering before the trumpets and bowls. So to make pretrib fit, we would have to now posit three "second comings" -- (1) a secret rapture before the 70th week, which neither Jesus nor Revelation mention at all, (2) a second, intermediate rapture of a "great multitude" (all of whom would have to be "tribulation saints" who were apparently saved without a church to witness to them... almost sounds as if getting the church out of the way would benefit missions) which occurs before the trumpets and bowls -- this is a gathering which no pretrib view acknowledges, to my knowledge -- and (3) a final coming at Armageddon. Furthermore, Paul's actual rapture description looks so much like this new intermediate gathering that Jesus and Revelation describe, that they might as well be lost-twins. Occam's Razor says it's simpler to believe that they both refer to the same event, in which case, there are no remaining verses describing the secret pretrib rapture.
You would be correct. The resurrection/rapture event does not take place until the last (seventh) trumpet sounds. THEN the bowls and vials of wrath are poured out on an unbelieving and unrepentant world. We will be here to experience everything mentioned prior to the last trumpet - which includes the "Great Tribulation" - that is unless you die somewhere along the line.
1Co 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
Rev 10:7 but that in the days of the trumpet call to be sounded by the seventh angel, the mystery of God would be fulfilled, just as he announced to his servants the prophets.
Rev 11:15 Then the seventh angel blew his trumpet, and there were loud voices in heaven, saying, “The kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of our Lord and of his Christ, and he shall reign forever and ever.”
EVERYTHING we see prior to 11:15 we will be here for. This is very very bad news to the pre-tribbers. The only things that take place AFTER the resurrection/rapture is the seven bowls and seven vials of judgment being poured out on an unbelieving and unrepentant world. Revelation gives us two separate views of the Revelation of Yeshua.
Chapter 6 & 13 Tribulation
Chapter 7 & 14 Rapture
Chapter 8 & 16 Wrath of God
Separate names with a comma.