Roman Catholic Magisterium and Catechism on polygyny

[Anonymous]

Besides, you said God "used her," no, God doesn't use anyone. He is not a love'em & leave'em kinda guy.

I never suggested that He was. This wasn't what I meant when I said he used Mary.

Blessings,
Fairlight

 

[WomanSeekingGod]

Besides, you said God "used her," no, God doesn't use anyone.

Of course God uses people. Why would that be considered a bad thing? Was it bad when God used Abraham to start the nation of Isreal? Was it bad when God used Moses to free His people? Was it bad when God used Elijah to get after all those false prophets of Baal? God did, indeed, use Mary, but it was a good kind of use.

He was espoused to her.

If God espoused Mary then Mary would have been guilty of adultery, because she married and was intimate with Joseph. (Matthew 1:24:25)

Nowhere in Scripture does it say that Mary is the wife of God. Scripture also doesn't comment on her being the co-redemptress, or the Queen Mother, or of her sitting in any throne in Heaven. That sort of glory goes only to God. He is our only savior, our only redeemer, the only one sitting on the throne in Heaven. (Isiah 45:21; Hosea 13:4; Matthew 1:21; Acts 4:12; 1 Timothy 2:5)

Even Jesus corrected those who gave undue praise to Mary.

"And it happened as He spoke these things, a certain woman of the company lifted up her voice and said to Him, Blessed is the womb that bore You, and the breasts which You have sucked.
"But He said, No; rather, blessed are they who hear the Word of God and keep it." Luke 11:27-28

Mary was just a woman that God used for His purposes. He didn't "love her and leave her" as you so crudely suggest we think. Instead, He gave her the great honor of using her body as a vessel for His purposes, nothing more. The glory and praise remains, as always, at the feet of God and no one else.

WomanSeekingGod

 

[Isabella]

I can't believe how Victor can't see how much of a hypocrite he is being by accusing Protestants of reading things into the text and then he parrots out things that are not written in the Bible at ALL....you know, just saying something emphatically doesn't make you right Victor.

FYI, I am the non Christian so I am not taking sides but....I thin k my head just exploded reading your posts, they are so deluded that I actually pity you. I also pity your need to come onto a Polygamy/PM website for the sole purpose of insulting and bashing the beliefs of the people here, not only are you woefully undereducated to do it but it is rather sad that you can't see this yourself.

Please spare us any further lecture on how right Catholicism is, or how bad Polygamy is, we have heard worse and more eloquent arguments before, this and your previous thread is only an exercise in testing the patience of people you seem to abhor.

regards,
Bels

 

[Anonymous]

Besides, you said God "used her," no, God doesn't use anyone.

Of course God uses people. Why would that be considered a bad thing? Was it bad when God used Abraham to start the nation of Isreal? Was it bad when God used Moses to free His people? Was it bad when God used Elijah to get after all those false prophets of Baal? God did, indeed, use Mary, but it was a good kind of use.

He was espoused to her.

If God espoused Mary then Mary would have been guilty of adultery, because she married and was intimate with Joseph. (Matthew 1:24:25)

Nowhere in Scripture does it say that Mary is the wife of God. Scripture also doesn't comment on her being the co-redemptress, or the Queen Mother, or of her sitting in any throne in Heaven. That sort of glory goes only to God. He is our only savior, our only redeemer, the only one sitting on the throne in Heaven. (Isiah 45:21; Hosea 13:4; Matthew 1:21; Acts 4:12; 1 Timothy 2:5)

Even Jesus corrected those who gave undue praise to Mary.

"And it happened as He spoke these things, a certain woman of the company lifted up her voice and said to Him, Blessed is the womb that bore You, and the breasts which You have sucked.
"But He said, No; rather, blessed are they who hear the Word of God and keep it." Luke 11:27-28

Mary was just a woman that God used for His purposes. He didn't "love her and leave her" as you so crudely suggest we think. Instead, He gave her the great honor of using her body as a vessel for His purposes, nothing more. The glory and praise remains, as always, at the feet of God and no one else.

WomanSeekingGod

And WSG hits a home run !!!! Amen sister !

Blessings,
Fairlight

 

[sweetlissa]

I think Isabella hit a home run too. Way to go Bels!

SweetLissa

 

[MarvelousMarvin]

Victor said:

Mary is the Ark of the New Covenant

Where is that in Scripture? Do your pagan-witchcraft gematria numbers tell you that or something?

As for Mary being the "Queen Mother," that is another pagan concept adopted by the RCC and has no scriptural basis whatsoever.

And as for Mary being a perpetual virgin (another pagan RCC invention):

Matthew 1:24-25 NKJV Then Joseph, being aroused from sleep, did as the angel of the Lord commanded him and took to him his wife, (25) and did not know her till she had brought forth her firstborn Son. And he called His name JESUS.

Matthew 13:55 KJV Is not this the carpenter's son? is not his mother called Mary? and his brethren, James, and Joses, and Simon, and Judas?

Galatians 1:19 NKJV But I saw none of the other apostles except James, the Lord's brother.

Either Joseph and Mary had sexual intimacy after Jesus was born, or Joseph had other wives. Or, most likely, both. Polygyny was common among the Jewish people at the time of Christ, and the Matthew passage quoted above could not be more explicit without being "x-rated."

 

[DiscussingTheTopic]

But your vulgar misapprehension is demonstrative of the real motives which drive this movment of yours.

While I feel DTT's comments were unfortunate.....The above comment from you was not a fair statement. Please do not paint us all with the same brush.

Blessings,
Fairlight

It is not planting seed in one's wife that is vulgar but it is deliberately not planting seed that God has said to plant that is unholy. In fact once God killed someone for failure to plant seed.

9And Onan knew that the seed should not be his; and it came to pass, when he went in unto his brother's wife, that he spilled it on the ground, lest that he should give seed to his brother.

10And the thing which he did displeased the LORD: wherefore he slew him also.
Genesis 38:9-10 King James

Although you cannot know for certain this single example would become a general rule applying to everyone from this single example alone.....

The Catholic Church is against the use of barriers to prevent the spreading of seed. Now in order to discuss whether or not spreading of seed should occur the language of spreading of seed was discussed rather than labeled as too vulgar for Roman Catholics to talk about. If you call me vulgar for discussing the same topic as the Pope discusses than you should complain to the pope about discussing such "vulgar" things as not using birth control in marriage (except for NFP, etc. in extraordinary (not ordinary) circumstances.)

So if you call spreading of seed into one's spouse vulgar you are being anti-roman Catholic.

Now you might argue that it was my misapprehension because the wife was not a literal single physical person but a metaphor for the Church in a non-sexual marriage, but if that is the case, then he should be married to one/first metaphorical spouse and that says nothing about how many literal spouses he can marry thus you can no longer use it as an argument against marrying literal spouses, unless metaphorical spouses can be matched interchangeably with literal spouses in which case God's two metaphorical spouses in Ezekiel 23 could be replaced with literal spouses and thus polygyny was allowed for Jesus or Jesus sinned.

In fact Roman Catholicism which claims to trace back to the early Church Fathers has what seems to me to be irreconcilable contradictions with Tertullian, who argued against polygyny on the basis of no more need to have more children after a certain period of history ended, which seems to me to be contradictory to the Roman Catholic teaching on certain birth control restrictions.

 

[Anonymous]

Victor Lepanto"To be deep in history is to cease to be Protestant." If the Catholic Church is not Christ's one & only true church, there is no true Church. If their is no Church, there is no Christ & we are still in our sins. The Catholic Church is our only connection to the Apostolic teaching.

I used to have a fairly positive view of the Roman Catholic Church UNTIL I started studying it's history. The more I learned about it, the more corrupt it appeared to me. Based on what my Bible tells me, I cannot accept that the RCC "is our only connection to the Apostolic teaching". As for "if there is no church, there is no Christ"...you have that totally backwards ! Without Christ, there is no church..or Christianity, for that matter !
The RCC has been and is full of false doctrine....too numerous to list here.

Hi Fairlight,

On another topic I made a comment about Roman Catholicism to someone else as well about the cultish nature of Roman Catholicism. Essentially a cult is the deviation of a group from the orthodox position of Christianity. Roman Catholicism fits this description.

The simplest answer to the whole Roman Catholic church issue is found in the following passage of Scripture:

"A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruits, nor can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit. Every tree that does not bring forth good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. Therefore by their fruits you shall know them." (Matthew 7:18-20)

The history and the practices of the Roman Catholic church effectively prove that the RCC is not a good tree...


John for Christ

 

[Anonymous]

The pope is only considered infallible by Roman Catholics when he speaks infallibly and not infallible when it comes to his behavior and morality.

That way they can disavow the many fallible things the Pope may do or say. Unfortunately, they missed many fallible statements that the Popes have made "ex cathedra" over the centuries. That puts a kink in the infallibility doctrine as well as their view that the RCC traditions are a better source of truth than the Bible.


John for Christ

 

[Anonymous]

As for after Jesus was born, Joseph would have been even less likely to approach her, as good Jew. Remember Belshazzar in Dan. 5. His kingdom was destroyed in a day for defiling the vessels dedicated to the service of God in the Temple of Jerusalem. The handwriting on the wall. He asked for the cups from the Temple be brought to him & he drank from God's vessel. For this defilement of the minor objects of the Temple, Babylon fell.

How much more so for the Ark of the New Covenant? As pious Jew he'd never enter the Temple of God. If he accepted the great miracle God rot in Mary, he'd never touch her either.

She was sacred on to God through her son. No man had a right to touch her.

Hi Victor,

The big mistake here is that Joseph was married to Mary. For that reason, the Holy Ghost PLACED Jesus in her, but she was not Jesus' mother in the sense of a biological mother. Otherwise we have the untenable case of God committing adultery!

Mary was not the Mother of God, nor the Wife of God. She was a good Jewish girl, that was used by God to carry His Son, then she went on in life making more babies with her husband Joseph.


John for Christ

 

[DiscussingTheTopic]

Nowhere in Scripture does it say that Mary is the wife of God. Scripture also doesn't comment on her being the co-redemptress, or the Queen Mother, or of her sitting in any throne in Heaven.

The children gather wood, the fathers light the fire, and the women knead the dough and make cakes to offer to the Queen of Heaven. They pour out drink offerings to other gods to arouse my anger.
Jeremiah 7:18 NIV 2010

15 Then all the men who knew that their wives were burning incense to other gods, along with all the women who were present—a large assembly—and all the people living in Lower and Upper Egypt, said to Jeremiah, 16 “We will not listen to the message you have spoken to us in the name of the LORD! 17 We will certainly do everything we said we would: We will burn incense to the Queen of Heaven and will pour out drink offerings to her just as we and our ancestors, our kings and our officials did in the towns of Judah and in the streets of Jerusalem. At that time we had plenty of food and were well off and suffered no harm. 18 But ever since we stopped burning incense to the Queen of Heaven and pouring out drink offerings to her, we have had nothing and have been perishing by sword and famine.”

19 The women added, “When we burned incense to the Queen of Heaven and poured out drink offerings to her, did not our husbands know that we were making cakes impressed with her image and pouring out drink offerings to her?”

20 Then Jeremiah said to all the people, both men and women, who were answering him, 21 “Did not the LORD remember and call to mind the incense burned in the towns of Judah and the streets of Jerusalem by you and your ancestors, your kings and your officials and the people of the land? 22 When the LORD could no longer endure your wicked actions and the detestable things you did, your land became a curse and a desolate waste without inhabitants, as it is today. 23 Because you have burned incense and have sinned against the LORD and have not obeyed him or followed his law or his decrees or his stipulations, this disaster has come upon you, as you now see.”

24 Then Jeremiah said to all the people, including the women, “Hear the word of the LORD, all you people of Judah in Egypt. 25 This is what the LORD Almighty, the God of Israel, says: You and your wives have done what you said you would do when you promised, ‘We will certainly carry out the vows we made to burn incense and pour out drink offerings to the Queen of Heaven.’

“Go ahead then, do what you promised! Keep your vows! 26 But hear the word of the LORD, all you Jews living in Egypt: ‘I swear by my great name,’ says the LORD, ‘that no one from Judah living anywhere in Egypt will ever again invoke my name or swear, “As surely as the Sovereign LORD lives.” 27 For I am watching over them for harm, not for good; the Jews in Egypt will perish by sword and famine until they are all destroyed. 28 Those who escape the sword and return to the land of Judah from Egypt will be very few. Then the whole remnant of Judah who came to live in Egypt will know whose word will stand—mine or theirs.

29 “‘This will be the sign to you that I will punish you in this place,’ declares the LORD, ‘so that you will know that my threats of harm against you will surely stand.’ 30 This is what the LORD says: ‘I am going to deliver Pharaoh Hophra king of Egypt into the hands of his enemies who want to kill him, just as I gave Zedekiah king of Judah into the hands of Nebuchadnezzar king of Babylon, the enemy who wanted to kill him.’”
Jeremiah 44:15-30 NIV 2010

Queen of Heaven is a title given to the Blessed Virgin Mary by Christians, mainly of the Roman Catholic Church, and also, to some extent, in the Anglican, Lutheran, and Eastern Orthodox churches, to whom the title is a (disputed) consequence of the Council of Ephesus in the fifth century, where the Virgin Mary was proclaimed "theotokos" ("God-bearer," "birthgiver of God" or the "one who gives birth to God" among other translations), a title rendered in Latin as Mater Dei, "Mother of God".

The Catholic teaching on this subject is expressed in the papal encyclical Ad Caeli Reginam,[1] issued by Pope Pius XII. It states Mary is called the Queen of Heaven because her Son, Jesus Christ, is the King of Israel and heavenly King of the Universe. In the Hebrew tradition, the mother of the king is the queen (see queen mother). Catholic dogma (Apostolic Constitution Munificentissimus Deus) states that the Virgin Mary, having completed the course of her earthly life, was assumed body and soul into heavenly glory.[2] The title Queen of Heaven has long been a Catholic tradition, included in prayers and devotional literature, and seen in Western art in the subject of the Coronation of the Virgin, from the High Middle Ages, long before it was given a formal dogmatic definition status by the Church. For centuries, Catholics, while reciting the Litany of Loreto were already invoking Mary as "Queen of Heaven".

Queen of Heaven was a title given to a number of ancient goddesses in the ancient Mediterranean and Near East, in particular Anat, Isis, Innana, Astarte and possibly Asherah (by the prophet Jeremiah). Elsewhere, Nordic Frigg also bore this title. In Greco-Roman times Hera, and her Roman aspect Juno bore this title. Forms and content of worship varied. The title Queen of Heaven was later used by some Christians of Mary.

...

Isis was venerated first in Egypt. As per the Greek historian Herodotus, writing in the fifth century BCE, Isis was the only goddess worshiped by all Egyptians alike,[1] and whose influence was so widespread by that point, that she had become completely syncretic with the Greek goddess Demeter[2]. It is after the conquest of Egypt by Alexander the Great, and the Hellenization of the Egyptian culture initiated by Ptolemy I Soter, that she eventually became known as 'Queen of Heaven'.[3] Lucius Apuleius confirmed this in Book 11, Chap 47 of his novel known as The Golden Ass, in which his character prayed to the "Queen of Heaven". The passage says that the goddess herself responded to his prayer, in which she explicitly identified herself as both the Queen of Heaven and Isis.

Then with a weeping countenance, I made this orison to the puissant Goddess, saying: O blessed Queen of Heaven...

Thus the divine shape breathing out the pleasant spice of fertile Arabia, disdained not with her divine voice to utter these words unto me: Behold Lucius I am come, thy weeping and prayers has moved me to succor thee. I am she that is the natural mother of all things, mistress and governess of all the elements, the initial progeny of worlds, chief of powers divine, Queen of Heaven... and the Egyptians which are excellent in all kind of ancient doctrine, and by their proper ceremonies accustomed to worship me, do call me Queen Isis.[4]


...

Inanna was the Sumerian Goddess of love and war. Despite her association with mating and fertility of humans and animals, Inanna was not a mother goddess, and is rarely associated with childbirth[5]. Inanna was also associated with rain and storms and with the planet Venus.[6]

Queen of Heaven is a title used for goddesses central to many religions of antiquity. Inanna's name is commonly derived from Nin-anna "Queen of Heaven" (from Sumerian NIN "lady", AN "sky")[7], although the cuneiform sign for her name (Borger 2003 nr. 153, U+12239 ... ) is not historically a ligature of the two. In some traditions Inanna was said to be a granddaughter of the creator goddess Nammu or Namma.[citation needed]. These difficulties have led some early Assyriologists to suggest that Inanna may have been originally a Proto-Euphratean goddess, possibly related to the Hurrian mother goddess Hannahannah, accepted only latterly into the Sumerian pantheon, an idea supported by her youthfulness, and that, unlike the other Sumerian divinities, she at first had no sphere of responsibilities.[8] The view that there was a Proto-Euphratean substrate language in Southern Iraq before Sumerian is not widely accepted by modern Assyriologists[9]. In Sumer Inanna was hailed as "Queen of Heaven" in the 3rd millennium BC. In Akkad to the north, she was worshipped later as Ishtar. In the Sumerian Descent of Inanna, when Inanna is challenged at the outermost gates of the underworld, she replies

I am Inanna, Queen of Heaven,
On my way to the East.

Her cult was deeply embedded in Mesopotamia and among the Canaanites to the west.

...


The goddess, the Queen of Heaven, whose worship Jeremiah so vehemently opposed, may have been possibly Astarte. Astarte is the name of a goddess as known from Northwestern Semitic regions, cognate in name, origin and functions with the goddess Ishtar in Mesopotamian texts. Another transliteration is ‘Ashtart; other names for the goddess include Hebrew עשתרת (transliterated Ashtoreth), Ugaritic ‘ṯtrt (also ‘Aṯtart or ‘Athtart, transliterated Atirat), Akkadian DAs-tar-tú (also Astartu) and Etruscan Uni-Astre (Pyrgi Tablets).

According to scholar Mark S. Smith, Astarte may be the Iron Age (after 1200 BC) incarnation of the Bronze Age (to 1200 BC) Asherah.[10]

Astarte was connected with fertility, sexuality, and war. Her symbols were the lion, the horse, the sphinx, the dove, and a star within a circle indicating the planet Venus. Pictorial representations often show her naked. Astarte was accepted by the Greeks under the name of Aphrodite. The island of Cyprus, one of Astarte's greatest faith centers, supplied the name Cypris as Aphrodite's most common byname. Asherah was worshipped in ancient Israel as the consort of El and in Judah as the consort of Yahweh and Queen of Heaven (the Hebrews baked small cakes for her festival):[11]

"Seest thou not what they do in the cities of Judah and in the streets of Jerusalem? The children gather wood, and the fathers kindle the fire, and the women knead their dough, to make cakes to the queen of heaven, and to pour out drink offerings unto other gods, that they may provoke me to anger." [12]

"... to burn incense unto the queen of heaven, and to pour out drink offerings unto her, as we have done, we, and our fathers, our kings, and our princes, in the cities of Judah, and in the streets of Jerusalem ..."[13]

...

Worship of a "Queen of Heaven", in Hebrew Malkath haShamayim (מלכת השמים) is recorded in the Book of the Prophet Jeremiah, circa 628 BC, in the context of the Prophet condemning such religious worship as blasphemy and a violation of the teachings of the God of Israel. In Jeremiah 7:18:

"The children gather wood, the fathers light the fire, and the women knead the dough and make cakes of bread for the Queen of Heaven. They pour out drink offerings to other gods to provoke me to anger."[14]

In Jeremiah 44:15-18:

"Then all the men who knew that their wives were burning incense to other gods, along with all the women who were present—a large assembly—and all the people living in Lower and Upper Egypt, said to Jeremiah, "We will not listen to the message you have spoken to us in the name of the LORD! We will certainly do everything we said we would: We will burn incense to the Queen of Heaven and will pour out drink offerings to her just as we and our fathers, our kings and our officials did in the towns of Judah and in the streets of Jerusalem. At that time we had plenty of food and were well off and suffered no harm. But ever since we stopped burning incense to the Queen of Heaven and pouring out drink offerings to her, we have had nothing and have been perishing by sword and famine." "[15]

It should be remembered in this context that there was a temple of Yahweh in Egypt at that time that was central to the Jewish community at Elephantine in which Yahweh was worshipped in conjunction with the goddess Anath (also named in the temple papyri as Anath-Bethel and Anath-Iahu).[16].

The goddesses Asherah, Anath and Astarte first appear as distinct and separate deities in the tablets discovered in the ruins of the library of Ugarit (modern Ras Shamra, Syria), although some Biblical scholars who have not explored the earlier documented evidence tend to jumble all these goddesses together.

John Day states that "there is nothing in first-millennium BC texts that singles out Asherah as 'Queen of Heaven' or associates her particularly with the heavens at all."[17]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Queen_of_Heaven

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Queen_of_H ... tiquity%29