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seeking you thoughts

@Mojo
re pre and post crucifixion and AD70,
I have been thinking around this a bit more now, and think zooming out to get the bigger picture (albeit the one I see) may help to fit the bits together.
There are laws after AD70, but there were also laws before Moses.
From Moses to Christ we had a nation of Israel.
After Christ we have individual believers (yes still a nation (1Pet 2:9) in a spiritual sense just as Israel were called to be (Ex 19:6), but not one in the natural sense until Christ has returned.
Before Moses is the time before Israel was a nation, so earlier laws were originally laws for individuals.

Regarding the priesthood, Gen 14 speaks of a priest called Melchisedek (Gen 14:18-20)
Then along comes Moses and priests have to come from the tribe of Levi.
Then David writes Ps 110 informing the Jews that his greater son is going to overcome and then the priesthood will be going back to the Melchisedek order (because the Messiah will also be a priest although he comes from the tribe of Judah).
That Psalm is frequently quoted in the Gospels, and the Jews could not answer it (Luke 20:41-44).
In Hebrews 7-8, the writer explains the changes that had happened by the time Hebrews was written.

If someone would like to arrange those pieces together into a different picture, i will be more than happy to take a look at it.
 
@FollowingHim
Thank you for your comments Samuel. I am more than happy with the Apostles' Creed. I was actually brought up with the standard theology but a lot of that has since been replaced. For example, I would now apply the Genesis "us" to the angels. I may well know some ideas without knowing the theological labels attached to them or the accepted definitions of those labels. It certainly sounds like I have to come to the right place to consider some other views! I was going to say "Time will tell.." but something tells me "Soon find out" might be more appropriate!
 
Quartus said:
@FollowingHim
Thank you for your comments Samuel. I am more than happy with the Apostles' Creed. I was actually brought up with the standard theology but a lot of that has since been replaced. For example, I would now apply the Genesis "us" to the angels. I may well know some ideas without knowing the theological labels attached to them or the accepted definitions of those labels. It certainly sounds like I have to come to the right place to consider some other views! I was going to say "Time will tell.." but something tells me "Soon find out" might be more appropriate!
Click to expand...

I think you'll fit in quite well around here! Glad to have you.
 
@Joleneakamama
I'm not familiar with the Gen 49:18 point about "goy" and that would take some time to look into.
I think I remember reading that a British Israelite admiral encouraged Allenby to go and do great things while he was wondering whether to accept the Middle East commission and then he subsequently went on and took Jerusalem back in 1917? I remember thinking at the time that I would have a lot in common but also some differences that I have not yet explored. I would apply the prophecies you mentioned to the Jews that have returned to the land and those still in dispersion. Regarding Britain and America, I understand these to be the Biblical "Tarshish" that will accept Christ at his return (Ps 72:10), and the events of the last year have opened the door to Britain and America giving the additional support to Israel that I believe is required by prophecy. A nice 100 year anniversary 1917-2017!
 
Quartus said:
From Moses to Christ we had a nation of Israel.
Click to expand...

And therein lies the confusion.

No, there's more to it. Israel is of course the name given to Yakov by YHVH (but note that UNLIKE many others, Abraham for example, the Bible continues to use BOTH names, sometimes in the same verse, to make specific points!) It is the name used -- along with Ephraim, Yosef, Judah, Yeshurun, and many others -- to describe nations consisting of one or more of his sons in latter times. It is used "kol Israel" -- or ALL of the "mixed multitude" -- to describe those millions who came out of Egypt with Moses.

And it is the name used often to describe the NORTHERN kingdom, aka Israel, also aka Ephraim, et al, to describe that exiled kingdom, scattered throughout every nation, and corner of the earth, that is also called the "ten lost tribes."

(Joleneakamama makes the main points...
Joleneakamama said:
Scripture says YHWH would make the new covenant with both houses of Israel (Jer 31:31-34) to me this is all the proof that is needed, but there is a bunch more scripture that supports that this is what happened, including Hosea ch 1, Ezekiel 37:20, Isaiah 62:2 which prophesies a new name for God's servants, and Isaiah 65:15 which also mentions that new name with some other interesting stuff connected to it. There is also the dry bones in Ezekiel...
Click to expand...

but the key is that "Israel" is a name and a nation that has more than one use in Scripture, which confuses people. (ESPECIALLY when they don't understand that it is also a reference for ONE of the two named wives/kingdoms of YHVH!)

Israel, in the general Biblical sense, is STILL in exile. And it is one of the two brides/houses that will one day be regathered, as multiple prophets, including Ezekiel's two sticks, and the Sukkot 'wedding' prophecies/feasts, picture.
 
This discussion is straying some distance from the initial purpose of the thread. @Quartus, if you click on @Joleneakamama and @Mark C's names, to go to their profile pages, and then on "postings" to see their past comments, you'll find your way to several threads where issues such as the word "goy", the identity of Israel, the applicability of Torah etc have already been discussed at length. Or simply go to the "search" box at the top right of the page and use that - search for "Melchizedek" for instance and you'll find a ton of discussion. I'd encourage you to read these other threads and post further queries there if needed, rather than trying to cover every topic here.

Could other posters please respond to off-topic queries that have already been discussed elsewhere by linking through to the relevant threads wherever possible? @Mark C and @Joleneakamama in particular. This will both keep the forum tidy and save you a lot of time re-writing stuff.
 
FollowingHim said:
This discussion is straying some distance from the initial purpose of the thread. @Quartus, if you click on @Joleneakamama and @Mark C's names, to go to their profile pages, and then on "postings" to see their past comments, you'll find your way to several threads where issues such as the word "goy", the identity of Israel, the applicability of Torah etc have already been discussed at length. Or simply go to the "search" box at the top right of the page and use that - search for "Melchizedek" for instance and you'll find a ton of discussion. I'd encourage you to read these other threads and post further queries there if needed, rather than trying to cover every topic here.

Could other posters please respond to off-topic queries that have already been discussed elsewhere by linking through to the relevant threads wherever possible? @Mark C and @Joleneakamama in particular. This will both keep the forum tidy and save you a lot of time re-writing stuff.
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Thank you FH.

Quartus, I might also add that in searching out these viewpoints, feel free to agree or disagree as the Spirit leads. These are interesting topics, but not the main focus of plural marriage or the Biblical Families site. We have a variety of theological opinions here, but we all loves the Savior, love the Word, and love to discuss.:D
 
Quartus said:
@Mojo
re pre and post crucifixion and AD70,
I have been thinking around this a bit more now, and think zooming out to get the bigger picture (albeit the one I see) may help to fit the bits together.
There are laws after AD70, but there were also laws before Moses.
From Moses to Christ we had a nation of Israel.
After Christ we have individual believers (yes still a nation (1Pet 2:9) in a spiritual sense just as Israel were called to be (Ex 19:6), but not one in the natural sense until Christ has returned.
Before Moses is the time before Israel was a nation, so earlier laws were originally laws for individuals.

Regarding the priesthood, Gen 14 speaks of a priest called Melchisedek (Gen 14:18-20)
Then along comes Moses and priests have to come from the tribe of Levi.
Then David writes Ps 110 informing the Jews that his greater son is going to overcome and then the priesthood will be going back to the Melchisedek order (because the Messiah will also be a priest although he comes from the tribe of Judah).
That Psalm is frequently quoted in the Gospels, and the Jews could not answer it (Luke 20:41-44).
In Hebrews 7-8, the writer explains the changes that had happened by the time Hebrews was written.

If someone would like to arrange those pieces together into a different picture, i will be more than happy to take a look at it.
Click to expand...
I understand what you are saying, but my zoom out is even greater.

God designated a priesthood. Did he eliminate it? No. Is there still a priesthood? Yes. Jesus is High Priest and we are individual priests offering our bodies as living sacrifices, daily.

Did God institute sacrifice? Yes. Did he eliminate it? No. I don't advocate for universalism, but I shy away from limited atonement also. Christ's sacrifice is powerful enough to atone for all, but we still must access that personally to become the elect (others may disagree).

Did God give his Law? Yes. Is it now obsolete? Even Paul seems to have conflicting passages, but in the end, he stated "What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet..."

This is where it goes back to polygyny and the original post.

If the Almighty does not change, doesn't lie, isn't a God Of confusion, doesn't contradict himself, is the same yesterday, today, and forever...how in tarnation has polygyny suddenly become obsolete? How did it suddenly become sin? Only through eisegesis and cultural conditioning can anyone even come close to that conclusion.

And if any argue that we live under grace and not law, then how does grace somehow become such a limiting factor to something as basic and holy as marriage? Grace opens up our options, the law limits it. So, either direction, anti polygynists lose out!
 
Mojo said:
And if any argue that we live under grace and not law, then how does grace somehow become such a limiting factor to something as basic and holy as marriage? Grace opens up our options, the law limits it. So, either direction, anti polygynists lose out!
Click to expand...

Not to derail the thread, (perhaps this would be a good topic for another thread) but I couldn't help but agree with the sentiment. If grace opens up our options, in what tangible ways would this be seen in plural marriage? Any thoughts?
 
This is the first forum that I have read, and I appreciate all of your comments and the Spirit in which they are made. I think one of the reasons that I have 'come round' to thinking that we should formally join BF, is because of the decorum and intellect involved in the discussions and other posts. It is refreshing to have people think, not only Biblically, and reasonably, but speak to others courteously and give evidence to the communion of the saints. Thanks,
 
thanks for your welcome @torahlovesalvation and I will look forward to further discussions
And I will try and start to get my head round the views on "Israel"!
Not knowing the Hebrew and Greek is a huge disadvantage, and although knowing it does not guarantee accuracy (witness the differing opinions within Judaism on the web) it does raise the argument significantly and help avoid bad arguments, so I am looking forward to some discussions along those lines.

And thank you for your post @Mojo I agree with most of that, but will keep it general by agreeing for now that "zooming out" to the right extent and also finding a common starting point are crucial to a useful debate, so a good time to thank everyone else as well, and try and make life easy for the moderators by giving @Aussies his thread back albeit a little late... here's a reminder of his original post as he's actually seeking the zooming out and common starting point elements on this particular discussion
- and perhaps we been a little too busy illustrating why it's important to find them ;)

Aussies said:
Just because we are relatively new to this site, We would like to understand the scriptural foundation that members personally use in accepting polygamy for today. We are not in any way questioning the rightness of polygamy as hopefully you have seen from our previous posts. We will gladly explain our thinking on the matter, but we would like to hear from other members too. We would just like to see if there are other scriptural aspects that we have not considered. In other words whats your best scriptural argument for polygamy. We feel that only by considering the thoughts of many can the strongest unified scriptural argument be made. And that is important due to the opposition placed against us in this matter.
Remember "a good teacher makes the complicated simple and truth is always simple its the lie that is complicated".
Looking forward to your comments.
Click to expand...

I have obviously got some more work to do on restating my own approach!
 
Quartus said:
thanks for your welcome @torahlovesalvation and I will look forward to further discussions
And I will try and start to get my head round the views on "Israel"!
Not knowing the Hebrew and Greek is a huge disadvantage, and although knowing it does not guarantee accuracy (witness the differing opinions within Judaism on the web) it does raise the argument significantly and help avoid bad arguments, so I am looking forward to some discussions along those lines.

And thank you for your post @Mojo I agree with most of that, but will keep it general by agreeing for now that "zooming out" to the right extent and also finding a common starting point are crucial to a useful debate, so a good time to thank everyone else as well, and try and make life easy for the moderators by giving @Aussies his thread back albeit a little late... here's a reminder of his original post as he's actually seeking the zooming out and common starting point elements on this particular discussion
- and perhaps we been a little too busy illustrating why it's important to find them ;)



I have obviously got some more work to do on restating my own approach!
Click to expand...
Iron sharpens iron.
 
Aussies said:
Just because we are relatively new to this site, We would like to understand the scriptural foundation that members personally use in accepting polygamy for today. We are not in any way questioning the rightness of polygamy as hopefully you have seen from our previous posts. We will gladly explain our thinking on the matter, but we would like to hear from other members too. We would just like to see if there are other scriptural aspects that we have not considered. In other words whats your best scriptural argument for polygamy.
Click to expand...

Hi, I've not been here for a while as things have been rather busy but I've written up and consolidated my thoughts into an article on this matter. Is there some way I can post it (it's 11 pages in a PDF) so that those who might like to read and give constructive feedback can access it? Please keep in mind I'm tech-illiterate. :( Cheers
 
@frederick Could you post a link to the document? Use the chain symbol in the toolbar.

I think to copy and paste it would take up too much of the thread. If you cant get the link to work properly, @FollowingHim would be the one to get help from.
 
Verifyveritas76 said:
@frederick Could you post a link to the document? Use the chain symbol in the toolbar.

I think to copy and paste it would take up too much of the thread. If you cant get the link to work properly, @FollowingHim would be the one to get help from.
Click to expand...

Thank you very much but I fear you missed that important statement I made: "Please keep in mind I'm tech-illiterate." I'll think it will be best if I wait for @FollowingHim then. :)
 
Sorry @frederick for not responding to you on this earlier. It's pretty simple. Just click "Upload a File" just under the box you type posts in, and choose your file. As a sample, I've attached my own marriage booklet in .pdf format to this post, so you can see how it will look like.
 

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