Setting brother over sister

[NVIII]

I posted this in another place, where it quickly sparked a discussion that made me think y'all might have fun with it here, too.

I delegated some of my responsibility to my son today. I made him his sister's covering before me and told him he would be punished if she disobeyed my word. He said that didn't sound fair if she didn't obey him.

Even a 9yo can see that a man must be allowed to force obedience.

From the discussion, it's apparent I need to expound on a few things: this is an impermanent exercise and an incomplete image of the real deal, and these things were made clear to the persons involved. Also, I did not create an unjust situation. After my son quickly realized it was unfair to be given responsibility for someone's behavior without a means to affect that behavior, I explained to him how responsibility and authority are inseparable, and explicitly outlined for him the measure of force he was authorized to use in the event of rebellion. I will allow the exercise to be terminated should she exhibit to him an ungovernable and unrepentant nature. And, of course, I will be watching over the entire simulation to intervene if things go sideways. This is a delegation of authority, not an abdication.

 

[The Revolting Man]

This sounds like a great way to promote bitterness between siblings. Do you have a fully formed theology around what “covering” means? I’ve yet to see a good working definition.

 

[FollowingHim2]

A 9 year old does not have the intelligence, maturity, or size to deal with a younger child that is refusing to obey. They should not be punished for the actions of a younger sibling.

 

[NVIII]

This sounds like a great way to promote bitterness between siblings.

Ironically, this sounds similar to egalitarian objections to patriarchal order in marriage.

I can report that so far it has caused the opposite. It has produced order out of chaos. As I recall from my childhood, rivalry and bitterness seem to thrive just fine in chaos. We'll see how this goes over time.

Do you have a fully formed theology around what “covering” means?

I am never confident that my theology is fully formed, but I do feel I have a good understanding of what it means to be a woman's covering. We might can substitute many different phrases there to make this less of a choke point--"go-between", "watchman", or "governor"--so long as it implies the positions of leadership/servitude and respective qualities of culpability/indemnification. I will refrain from using terms like "husband", "master", "boss", and "lord" since their connotations seem to lean heavily outside the limits of the exercise.

Also important to note the "before me" part. This entire exercise exists only within the microsphere I have created for them (my house), just as marriage exists only in the microsphere that God has created for us (earth) to mimic and teach us about the real thing (our union with Him).

 

[NickF]

I have a friend who has a seemingly well run household with almost as many children as Zec. They have instituted authority hierarchy structures with the responsibility that goes with the authority. For instance there's a bathroom tzar who is responsible for making sure the bathrooms are up to expectations, that TP reordering happens when it is supposed to. The younger children report to the older one who's neck is on the line if the bathrooms are not clean. Basically the younger kids do the cleaning, if up to spec, everything is good, if it is found to be wanting, the tzar is required to clean up the mess and bring things up to code so to speak. Each child is rotated through the responsibilities according to their mastery of and faithfulness in doing their job well and thoroughly. The oldest ones have the most responsibility in oversight and the most burden if they fail in their oversight. The fruit is their 17 and 16 year olds by all accounts from our observations are some of the most responsible and trustworthy young people in that age range that we've seen in a long time.

If there is rebellion, it's expected that the older children after a certain age will handle it, if the child oversteps, the recompense is double. If the issue is not resolved, it goes up the chain, and the further up the chain it goes, the more of a severe punishment the issue warrants. Not real sure on the whole discipline thing.

I could be getting this all wrong or mixing some details up, we just spoke about it briefly.

Frees his wife up to handle the bigger picture management. Seems to scale very well.

 

[NVIII]

I have a friend who has a seemingly well run household with almost as many children as Zec. They have instituted authority hierarchy structures with the responsibility that goes with the authority. For instance there's a bathroom tzar who is responsible for making sure the bathrooms are up to expectations, that TP reordering happens when it is supposed to. The younger children report to the older one who's neck is on the line if the bathrooms are not clean. Basically the younger kids do the cleaning, if up to spec, everything is good, if it is found to be wanting, the tzar is required to clean up the mess and bring things up to code so to speak. Each child is rotated through the responsibilities according to their mastery of and faithfulness in doing their job well and thoroughly. The oldest ones have the most responsibility in oversight and the most burden if they fail in their oversight.

Almost sounds like you are saying you know the Duggars. This sounds a lot like what they do, too.

The fruit is their 17 and 16 year olds by all accounts from our observations are some of the most responsible and trustworthy young people in that age range that we've seen in a long time.

This is encouraging to hear. It is my aim to prepare them for life without me way ahead of their peers in all ways. Learning by doing is a big part of that. I hope this has the desired outcome.

Frees his wife up to handle the bigger picture management. Seems to scale very well.

That's another effect I hoped this would have, creating little lieutenants and stepping the program up over time, so that's good to hear.

 

[MeganC]

Even a 9yo can see that a man must be allowed to force obedience.

Wow. Alienating both of your kids in one move. That's a masterstroke.

Someday when you're old and your son is too far away to help it'll fall to your daughter to take care of you. And she'll get to force you to drink your Ensure, put on your Depends, and do what she says.

Enjoy your future.

 

[Joleneakamama]

It is my aim to prepare them for life without me way ahead of their peers in all ways. Learning by doing is a big part of that.

That is a worthy goal. Learn by doing is the motto of the 4-H club. It really works quite well. Often you cannot even formulate the questions you should be asking... until you attempt whatever it is.
I love the concept, as the learning becomes meaningful and it is largely retained.

Of course some tasks aren't pleasant....like "pollinating" the milk cows.... but even learning to do unpleasant things can make one feel accomplished.....and there are rewards too.

I hope your exercise in authority training is a success.

 

[Joleneakamama]

Each child is rotated through the responsibilities according to their mastery of and faithfulness in doing their job well and thoroughly. The oldest ones have the most responsibility in oversight and the most burden if they fail in their oversight

I like the rotation. They will all be over, or answering to one another in time. Since what goes around comes around they may learn both diligence and mercy.

If there is rebellion, it's expected that the older children after a certain age will handle it, if the child oversteps, the recompense is double. If the issue is not resolved, it goes up the chain, and the further up the chain it goes, the more of a severe punishment the issue warrants.

This I think would help them learn that everyone answers to someone. Rule of law so to say. Many opportunities to listen to wisdom, or agree with someone who is being adversarial, and the consequence of stubbornness being realized if they push things.

 

[The Revolting Man]

Ironically, this sounds similar to egalitarian objections to patriarchal order in marriage.

No it doesn’t.

I can report that so far it has caused the opposite. It has produced order out of chaos. As I recall from my childhood, rivalry and bitterness seem to thrive just fine in chaos. We'll see how this goes over time.

So your 9 year old son brought order to a situation you had let become chaotic? Are you sure?

but I do feel I have a good understanding of what it means to be a woman's covering.

I don’t think you do, if you did you would know that it can only be transferred to her husband.

You’d also do know that we can’t really say that a father is his daughter’s covering, at least not from scripture. Fathers are never described as a daughter’s covering in scripture, at least not that anyone has ever been able to show me.

But if you do have an understanding of “covering” then you should start a thread about it and teach it to the rest of us. So far no one has laid a biblical definition of it. I can tell you this though, there is no scenario where a brother would have a spiritual authority over his sister.

 

[FollowingHim]

@The Revolting Man is correct that the word "covering" is confusing here. I think what you're really trying to teach your son is the fact that responsibility and authority go hand in hand, and you can't have one without the other. It would be far less confusing if you kept it to that level of simplicity and didn't add the more debatable concept of "covering" into this.

I can see that something like this could be an informative and even fun teaching exercise for an afternoon, with a thorough debrief at the end of the day when you make a big show of amusingly "punishing" the son for all the misbehaviour the daughter had done while letting her off scott-free, and discussing all the implications of this.

I can also see it being an absolutely disastrous way to raise children for much longer than that. I understand it's an impermanent situation - good. But how long are you talking about? I can't see much positive coming from this when taken beyond the point where it's still a fun game.