SHTF diet?

[pebble]

Hello.

I know we have different takes on what is a biblically-approved diet but this is with reference to the diet laws of Leviticus. If we look at the laws in a practical light, the "clean" animals were indeed clean. They are mostly (?) herbivores (not sure about the fishes) and usually live at the lower level of the food chain. A lot of the unclean ones are scavengers, predators, and detritus feeders. There's a lot more chance we are going to ingest diseases and toxins along with the protein if we eat unclean animals. God knows health science and He is protecting us from our follies.

I am assuming the list of "clean" animals must be indigenous to the OT region where God's people roamed. In my country, they are not. But most have been introduced here and farmed. However, in a SHTF situation it would be difficult for 70 million Filipinos to have access to clean meat. We can only rely on native fauna such as wild pigs, field mice, frogs, bats, lizards, snakes, and probably a few small deer. There will probably be some buffaloes and cattle that will manage to survive but they will be gone quickly. Oh, and there'll be a lot of stray dogs and cats.

So, are we excused from the dietary laws if our choice is to eat or die? Humans are excluded from the menu.

Thanks.

 

[NetWatchR]

From my understanding of Biblical Dietary "allowances", there were phases in which certain things were/were not allowed. These changed over time. If you are looking for a modern day answer to a modern day scenario, I wonder why limit yourself to an earlier limitation/allowance.

However, you, my friend, in your scenario, are looking at a Kobayashi Maru: You either have to accept the no-win scenario or redefine the problem. To answer your specific question, “are we excused from the dietary laws if our choice is to eat or die”, you have to go back to why you decided to follow those laws. First, notice the word, Law. If it is a Law that you have decided that it is required for you to follow, and it is God's Law on top of that, do you really have a choice? No, you can't eat the forbidden meats. It’s a Law. If you are following that particular Law as a “guideline” for nutritional purposes, then you certainly can because your 'preferred' meats may not be available, and you recognize that those particular 'Laws' were for a particular time in History.

This may seem confusing, but keep in mind Romans 14. If you believe something to be sin and you do it, it is sin for you; if you do not believe something to be sin and you do it, it is not sin.

Bon Appetit,

-Mike

----------------------------
P.S.: For those interested, a small list to the changes in dietary allowances/restrictions.
Presenting: NetWatchR's Super Simplified List of When It Was OK To Eat Things (Draft)
1) It started in Eden. Dietary allowance was fruit, veggies, no meat.
2) Then, the Flood. Good told Noah they could now eat meat. Genesis 9:3
3) Next there was a period of only certain animals were forbidden, and only for a certain group of people.
4) Last, you have Paul (I think) stating that, basically, all meat is good as long as it has not been strangled, bloody or offered to idols. But even then, like it says in 1 Cor 10:25, just don't ask questions. So, to paraphrase a paraphrase: buy it, cook it, eat it.
4b)Not sure where, but I believe there was even reference to asking God to bless the food so that if it is poisoned, it would still be ok to eat.

 

[Elisheba]

If everything goes bad and we are on a SHTF diet. Everyone everywhere will have a hard time eating clean meat, because people will start killing everything that they think they can eat as soon as their 2 weeks or less food supply starts to dwindle.

Paul taught about being grafted into Israel. The instructions given were to remain according to Deut. 4:2

Deu 4:2 Ye shall not add unto the word which I command you, neither shall ye diminish from it, that ye may keep the commandments of the LORD your God which I command you.

Also they set us apart.

Lev 11:44 For I am YHVH your God; sanctify yourselves therefore, and be ye holy; for I am holy; neither shall ye defile yourselves with any manner of swarming thing that moveth upon the earth.
Lev 11:45 For I am YHVH that brought you up out of the land of Egypt, to be your God; ye shall therefore be holy, for I am holy.

If we are aware enough to see the problem then I think it is wisdom to do something prepare for the problem.

As far as Paul teaching eating all things is permissible is just one interpretation. You could as easily say that he was talking about food, and since YHVH doesn't consider unclean meats food he was probably talking about the difference between eating clean meat and not eating meat.

I go back to Noah. He was told he could eat all things but only had two each of unclean animals. If he had eaten one then it would have gotten rid that whole type of animal. He had quite a few more to choose from when it came to the clean animals.

No offense intended to anyone here, just offering an alternate view.

 

[steve]

Act 15:20, 21
But that we write unto them, that they abstain from pollutions of idols, and from fornication, and from things strangled, and from blood. For Moses of old time hath in every city them that preach him, being read in the synagogues every sabbath day.

Most do not realize that vs 21 exists, and that there may be a reason that it exists. A sermon that I heard once was about the idea that when a verse starts with "for", we need to find out what it is there for.
So the question is: Why is the word "for" placed between these two sentences?

btw: In this "first mention" it is James that is making the statement in front of Paul.

 

[NetWatchR]

I realize I opened the door to discussing the dietary allowances, which Pebble already conceded, but what say you all to his question? If he believes the dietary restrictions as Law, can the unclean meats be consumed when no clean meats are available? Or another interpretation of the question, can one defy the law when following the law results in death? I think we know the answer to that...

I'll also couch that by bringing up fruits and veggies. No one said you HAD to eat meat.

 

[FollowingHim]

Agree we should approach this from the assumption that the dietary laws apply, there are obviously differing views on that but that's a separate issue.

The OT has examples of even cannibalism in dire need (2 Kings 6:28-29), and that is prophecied also. Although clearly wrong and the most extreme breach of these laws possible, there seems to be an understanding that when things go completely mad stuff like that happens, however wrong. And you don't do that until you've eaten every dog and rat in the city, so clearly the Israelites ended up eating unclean meat when in dire need.

We are told that people understand a thief breaking the law in dire need, yet if caught the penalty still applies, Prov 6:30. I think that is applicable here. If you have to eat unclean meat, then it is completely understandable, yet under the law you are unclean. And there were provisions for what washings, sacrifices etc were needed to make restitution for that sin, later. So I think you'd just do what was needed to stay alive, then ask for forgiveness.

 

[pebble]

@NetWatchR

Sir, this statement... if you do not believe something to be sin and you do it, it is not sin... how does it relate to this article http://www.letusreason.org/Apolo17.htm? Sorry, long one.

There might not be a stable supply of crops and fruits. Our farmers are already having issues with their productions with the erratic weather patterns we have here for the past 3-4 years and another el nino is coming this 2014 (out of cycle). Besides, we also need protein. It would be also difficult to find plant protein that we can match to create a complete protein, that's assuming they will be present. Rats are actually my best bet.



As for asking forgiveness every time we eat something unclean, is t okay to do so after every meal while knowing beforehand that we are about to eat it? It's different with sins transgressions like adultery. We can ask for forgiveness but we must also try not to do it again.

 

[NetWatchR]

So I think you'd just do what was needed to stay alive, then ask for forgiveness.

I don't know about that. It seems like a very dangerous interpritation. To what end does that justification still apply? Granted, God will forgive all sins, but I have a hard time thinking that anything goes just as long as I ask forgiveness. It's ok to eat unclean meat because I can just ask forgiveness? Ok, well, my neighbor has clean meat, so I'll take his instead; I'll just ask forgiveness. If he tries to stop me and I end up killing him to preserve my own life; I'll just ask forgiveness.

Although clearly wrong and the most extreme breach of these laws possible, there seems to be an understanding that when things go completely mad stuff like that happens, however wrong.

I really am surprised to see this. It is true that when things go mad, "stuff" happens, but that doesn't give us permission to participate just because we can ask forgiveness. I may not explain clearly how this troubles me, but just because it happens doesn't mean it is ok for it to happen. Just because this was done as a last resort doesn't mean that it should have happened at all. If something is wrong, it is wrong. It should be avoided first and foremeost. Not particpated in and then ask forgiveness.

The OT has examples of even cannibalism in dire need (2 Kings 6:28-29)...

Look at Verse 30 of that same scripture. "When the king heard the woman’s words, he rent his clothes." It greived him that his people had reduced themselves to this atrocity. If it was to be considered acceptable in such dire circumstances, why didn't he have the other woman's child found and boiled? Because it shouldn't have happened in the first place.

 

[FollowingHim]

My point of mentioning cannibalism was not to say that was ok, but rather that a lot of unclean meat must have been eaten to get to that extreme point. I would never advocate killing people and eating them.

I may certainly be wrong. But God's Law is given for our benefit, not our harm. The food laws give a healthier diet. The Sabbath law gives a healthy work/rest balance. But Christ was willing to heal on the Sabbath, as the Sabbath was made for man not man for the Sabbath. The food laws also are for man, not man for the food laws. I'd be with Pebble hunting for rats, and have faith that God would understand.

Actually I don't follow the food laws at all, but that's a separate issue, here I am putting myself in the shoes of someone who does.

 

[NetWatchR]

this statement... if you do not believe something to be sin and you do it, it is not sin... how does it relate to this article http://www.letusreason.org/Apolo17.htm?

Actually, I think it relates quite well. The articles states,

What happens to [he] who never heard the gospel[?] Romans teaches that God will judge people on what they know and are capable of knowing.

Refer back to Romans 14. The very first section (verses 2 - 3) uses the dietary as an example of not despising your brother for believing differently because God has accepted both.

My statement was a derivative of verses 22 and 23 (23 specifically). Here it is in the Amplified

<22> Your personal convictions [on such matters]—exercise [them] as in God’s presence, keeping them to yourself [striving only to know the truth and obey His will]. Blessed (happy, to be envied) is he who has no reason to judge himself for what he approves [who does not convict himself by what he chooses to do]. <23> But the man who has doubts (misgivings, an uneasy conscience) about eating, and then eats [perhaps because of you], stands condemned [before God], because he is not true to his convictions and he does not act from faith. For whatever does not originate and proceed from faith is sin [whatever is done without a conviction of its approval by God is sinful].

As a side note, I find it ironic that so many Christian leaders, who should know better, when faced with people who believe or practice polygyny, seem to forget all about this chapter.

 

[cnystrom]

Colossians 2:

"16Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day. 17These are a shadow of the things that were to come; the reality, however, is found in Christ. 18Do not let anyone who delights in false humility and the worship of angels disqualify you. Such a person also goes into great detail about what they have seen; they are puffed up with idle notions by their unspiritual mind. 19They have lost connection with the head, from whom the whole body, supported and held together by its ligaments and sinews, grows as God causes it to grow.

20Since you died with Christ to the elemental spiritual forces of this world, why, as though you still belonged to the world, do you submit to its rules: 21“Do not handle! Do not taste! Do not touch!”? 22These rules, which have to do with things that are all destined to perish with use, are based on merely human commands and teachings. 23Such regulations indeed have an appearance of wisdom, with their self-imposed worship, their false humility and their harsh treatment of the body, but they lack any value in restraining sensual indulgence."

 

[Courting4Life]

Are the hypothetical situations presented for discussion beneficial? If anyone is in a position where they feel they may soon be forced into cannibalism I'm certain we can arrange a food drop or extrication for you. For those insistent on defining a hypothetical situation as sin or not, I offer that the focus be turned to the methods by which we may avoid the situation altogether (perhaps another thread on preparedness by those who have done so).

Turning to Pebble's original inquiry, are there any members who presently reside in the Philippines or have spent extensive time there and have suggestions for staple foods with long term storage capability? What methods did you find the most effective for storing foods in that region?

Pebble, what resources are at your disposal in terms of land or even areas for growing your food in pots? Are you in a flood zone, on a mountain, by a river... Are there any community farms?

I would like to add that meats are not required for protein. Everything you need may be ingested from plants. Proteins included. Additionally, we store amino acids (protein building blocks) to build protein for ourselves. I love avocados, great source of amino acids!

 

[NetWatchR]

There you go using logic. How dare you bring facts, logic, common sense and ruin a perfectly good theological debate on a hypothetical situation. Of course, I jest.

Courting has a point as far as storing your own food stuffs. But, then you have to decided what kind of preparedness are you attempting to obtain. A week without power? Non-access to online currency (ATM's, credit cards, etc.)? End of the world, apocalyptic, years-long famines? That's the only problem when talking about being prepared. One person's level of preparedness is one's too much and another's too little.

These are all good things that should be discussed, and decided upon for each family separately, but in their proper place. Just trying to get back to Pebble's OP which seemed to be the question of the "sinfullness" of eating unclean meats in a life/death situation. A very possible hypothetical scenario.

With love to my brothers,

-Mike

 

[Courting4Life]

Pebble asked if we are excused from the law if our choice is to eat or die.

I'll eat. Been there, done that.

Just realize that you are likely able to be a steward of the Earth around you in such a way that you may avoid or reduce the potential need to make such a choice. We were given dominion. Exercise it.

 

[steve]

I believe that eating unclean meat only makes one unclean. Hopefully no one is under the impression that I believe that it makes them unsaved.

I do find it fascinating that the pilgrims and the puritans survived by eating shellfish.

 

[NetWatchR]

...it makes them unsaved.

Oh, no, no, no. I wouldn't have though that. I don't believe that either. Eating something unclean could no more make one unsaved than any other sin.

I, personally, am just having a very difficult time understanding how it is ok to eat something that one believes is unclean. It just seems very simple to me. If one believes that eating something unclean is sinful and all things that are sinful should be avoided, how can it be ok to intentionally sin just because you can ask for forgiveness? I don't follow that logic.

 

[FollowingHim]

Different situation. You're fleeing from something and have no food or money. You haven't eaten for days, your kids are fainting. You come across an unattended truck of bread. You have to keep running, have no time to find the owner to ask to give you some, and will have no possibility of ever returning and repaying for it if you take any.

Do you sin and steal some bread, so your kids don't die, and ask God to understand?

Or do you hold to your convictions and watch your children die of malnutrition on the road?

Is sin understandable in such a SHTF situation?

 

[Courting4Life]

Romans 14 gives clear direction to all in regards to eating, abstaining, and judgement of those who differ from ourselves. It emphasizes committing your action to the Creator, and avoiding any action that would be a stumbling block to others. So, Pebble, if you believe those meats to be unclean, how may we help to amend your diet? If you don't believe them to be unclean, you'll find no condemnation here.

 

[Courting4Life]

Different situation. You're fleeing from something and have no food or money. You haven't eaten for days, your kids are fainting. You come across an unattended truck of bread. You have to keep running, have no time to find the owner to ask to give you some, and will have no possibility of ever returning and repaying for it if you take any.

Do you sin and steal some bread, so your kids don't die, and ask God to understand?

Or do you hold to your convictions and watch your children die of malnutrition on the road?

Is sin understandable in such a SHTF situation?

Proverbs 6:30
People do not despise a thief if he steals
to satisfy his hunger when he is starving.
Yet if he is caught, he must pay sevenfold,
though it costs him all the wealth of his house.

 

[pebble]

Hopefully no one is under the impression that I believe that it makes them unsaved.

Well, THAT is what I thought.

I personally think this whole thread is missing the point. Where is trusting God?

Sir, there is always that trust in Him to provide but in a situation where all chips are down perhaps not everything that He provides is what we expect?