• Biblical Families is not a dating website. It is a forum to discuss issues relating to marriage and the Bible, and to offer guidance and support, not to find a wife. Click here for more information.

Study request: What is an abomination?

Tlaloc

Tlaloc

Member
In Torah keepers secret name Mark made a passing comment that male homosexuality was considered an abomination rather than a sin. He commented briefly that that sounds worse to him, and it sounds worse to me too, but I can't seem to pin down exactly what it is. For the sake of better understanding scripture and hopefully getting better anti-gay arguments I humbly request a pooling of knowledge and study resources on this topic. Here we have finely capable students of scripture from a variety of backgrounds, I believe that if everyone contributes we can have a more clear understanding of just whats going on.

What I have so far is the raw Strong's data and some English information. There are three Hebrew roots that have all been dumped into the one English word abomination. I hate when translators do that, they should at least leave a mark, heads up everyone this is really three different concepts but I think there similar so I'm going to call them the same thing. So, here they are in their anglified enunciation form (as I don't have a Hebrew script set on my computer right now)

H6292 Pig-gool: 4 instances. This one is easy and I doubt it needs any further study. Any guesses? Anyone?
It deals with putrid, fetid, unclean foods. Each time its talking about food unfit to eat.

H8263 Sheh-kets: 11 instances. Strong's says this is related to filth foremost, and secondarily idolatrous objects. Almost every instance of this is in Leviticus. It doesn't seem like things in this category are in and of themselves bad. Eagles are this kind of abomination. They are a fine noble creature, but don't eat them. Actually every time it's used its dealing with things you shouldn't eat.

Those two roots are pretty straightforward, and I would submit that abomination is the wrong word for these things as we would think of them today.

H8441 To-ay-baw: 117 instances. Needless to say, this is the one I'm looking for details on. Strong says it's something disgusting or hated. It may also deal with idolatry. The Egyptians thought eating with Hebrew's or shepherds (possibly Hyskos related) was this. Male homosexuality is this. Idolatry is this. You're not supposed to allow it or anyone considered it into you're house. Sacrificing a blemished or bad flavoured critter to the Lord was this. All dark magic related stuff was this. Cross dressing was this. Using prostitutes was this. Marrying, divorcing, going back to husband #1 was this. Justifying the wicked is this. Pride is this. The ways, thoughts, and sacrifices of wicked people are this.

English abomination as defined right now deals exclusively with something hated and loathed. As far as I'm concerned these things aren't wrong because people, including myself, don't like them. God himself hating these things isn't a reason on its own, simply because my God doesn't hate anything for no additional reason. Fortunately the term abomination was there since the 1611, so the modern definition isn't the important one. Thank God for dictionary.com, which pools information about language quickly for us to access. Abomination is broken down into ab, which means off, and omin, which roots to omen. Literately, a bad omen. That fits the pattern to me because of how many times the prophets say to Israel or Judea, you saw these abominations happening you should've known this would happen. As far I'm concerned that fits, but it isn't the why.

Here is where I really need the work, the additional insight, the criticism, the collaboration. I need this section to be up to scratch to present to the pro gay people (which I do have to argue with in person) or else to be scratched as speculation or outright wrong. An obscure definition of abomination is 'A cause of pollution or wickedness.' wickedness we know, pollution is the act of making something unfit for living things or people. I feel that's important, but ultimately I'm not interested in what abomination means, its To-ay-baw I need to know about.

Lev 18:27 (for all these abominations have the men of the land done that were before you and the land is defiled)

This refers back to the sexual laws. Why I mentioned pollution earlier is that defiled here deals with contamination and pollution. Of course this is in a moral sense, but it can also be in a physical sense too. Of course whether we're talking about 1600 AD or BC the pollution we're talking about is not like the mines of Uranium City or carbon emissions or all the gad danged light people use to block out the stars at night and keep them safely cooped up from Gods vast and wonderful creation. Pollution in this time deals with things that cause or spread disease like a corpse or feces or contagious sickness. A plague city or fresh battlefield would be greatly polluted.

So, if I'm right in what God means here and God is right about what he said (that at least is a given) then we should expect sicknesses clearly associated with male homosexuality, incest, infidelity, prostitution, and bestiality. We should also see in history and except to see again any culture that leaves these things unchecked being overtaken by another culture either from within or without. This is mostly because people make a culture and people who do those things will tend to die or not have kids by natural course. ¿Blythe's natural selection right? I'm talking over the course of centuries or at least decades, but still.

The evidence that all of those five behaviours spreads disease or outright creates it(New genetic disease from incest and new to human disease by bestiality) it is overwhelming. Male homosexuality has an assortment of non viral diseases associated with it too because of, er, what they do. VERY interestingly when I've been reviewing statics by the Catholic medical board (I must find that link again) they condemned female homosexuality but only had a vague statement that more sexually transmitted infections occurred. I found it odd that they didn't comment on which infections where more common, then it dawned on me why. Yeast infections would transmit at a massive rate, but they are not at all serious or critical and citing them would only help people who tolerated female homosexual behaviour in some circumstances. That's my guess, as I said, they didn't present the actual data.

So, thats where I'm at right now. I want to get to a point where I can confidently say that this is a major reason why God is against gays, but this is preliminary research right now so help filling it out or tearing bad stuff down would be greatly appreciated.
 
Hello Tlaloc,

This topic is quite interesting.

My view: An abomination is an act that goes directly against God. When God told us certain sins were abominations those sins were things that went totally against His will. Homosexuality, for example, goes totally against God's intentions for His creation. We were created to couple with the opposite sex. When a man lies with another man the way they would with a woman, that goes totally against God's creation (in other words, the bits don't fit).

Building upon that, homosexuality is an abomination against the body. Men being with men opens themselves up to diseases which can ultimately kill them. The diseases are spreadable, ultimately killing others. It is now an act that is hurting more of God's creation, an abomination.

What really caught my attention on this topic, though, was the idea of witnessing to homosexuals. I have been exposed to homosexuals my entire life. I've only known one who came to Christ and walked away from homosexuality. What reached him the most was love from other Christians. It was the single hardest thing for him to walk away from though. He said accepting Christ was the easy part, changing his thoughts about men was the hard part.

Homosexuality isn't just a really bad sin that someone needs to be told about, it's a brain thing. They are not born homosexual, instead they are modified into homosexuals by influencing events in their lives. There are so many little factors that, when added up, "help" some men to become gay.

You can tell homosexuals that God doesn't like homosexuality until you're blue in the face. You can give them all sorts of great evidence as to why it's harmful, why it affects society, why it's bad for our families, but you're not going to get very far. Sure, they can see and believe that Christ is their savior, but it's an entirely different hurdle getting their brain to agree to not be homosexual. Compare it to an obsessive compulsive person. They can accept Christ as their savior, and though that belief never changes it's still a struggle for them to re-wire their brains to keep from doing things over and over and over again. With homosexuals you are not only dealing with brain re-wiring, but also with sexual desire, which is a very powerful drug!

Here are some links to sites that promote homosexual healing, though I am not sure if they are Christian based or not.

http://www.narth.com/

http://www.peoplecanchange.com/

My friend, who is an ex-homosexual, took many many years to get to where he is now. He told me a bit about the process he went through. First he accepted Christ. Then he accepted the teachings and expectations of God. Then he made a conscious effort to change his ways. At one point, he told me, that he came to the realization that he never wanted to be with a man again, however he hadn't made the step of wanting to be with a woman either. He said that at that point he prayed to God and God answered him and told him to just rest in Him and eventually they would work it out together.

So, you see, it was a very long process that took many steps and is still taking steps to become the person God knows he can become. If you can provide the support for a homosexual to take those steps, then you are on the right path!

Respectfully yours,
WomanSeekingGod
 
Good issue.

An abomination is something that is at the far extreme of things that God hates. This can be seen in the following scripture in which God tells of 6 things that He hates and the seventh is an abomination, (i.e., He REALLY hates it)...

Proverbs 6:16-19 (NKJV) -

16 These six things the Lord hates,
Yes, seven are an abomination to Him:
17 A proud look,
A lying tongue,
Hands that shed innocent blood,
18 A heart that devises wicked plans,
Feet that are swift in running to evil,
19 A false witness who speaks lies,
And one who sows discord among brethren.

Homosexuality is the result of someone accepting and operating with a demonic spirit. The spirit can be cast out or off the person with the power of the Holy Spirit, in Jesus name. However, unless the person accepts Christ and is baptized in the Holy Spirit, then follows the pattern that Jesus established for His followers by walking in the Spirit, they will not be able to stay victorious over that, or any other demonic spirit. The homosexual spirit WILL come back and bring some buddies along. The latter state will be worse than the former.

Matthew 12:43-45 -

43“When an unclean spirit goes out of a man, he goes through dry places, seeking rest, and finds none. 44“Then he says, ‘I will return to my house from which I came.’ And when he comes, he finds it empty, swept, and put in order. 45“Then he goes and takes with him seven other spirits more wicked than himself, and they enter and dwell there; and the last state of that man is worse than the first. So shall it also be with this wicked generation.”

This is the case with virtually anything that we struggle with in the flesh. Homosexuality is not the exception, but one of the standard issues humans face in following the wisdom of the ways of God, rather than the wisdom of the ways of the world, which are dictated by Satan.

James 3:13-18 -

13Who is wise and understanding among you? Let him show by good conduct that his works are done in the meekness of wisdom. 14But if you have bitter envy and self-seeking in your hearts, do not boast and lie against the truth. 15This wisdom does not descend from above, but is earthly, sensual, demonic. 16For where envy and self-seeking exist, confusion and every evil thing are there. 17But the wisdom that is from above is first pure, then peaceable, gentle, willing to yield, full of mercy and good fruits, without partiality and without hypocrisy. 18Now the fruit of righteousness is sown in peace by those who make peace.

Since intercourse between a man and his wife represents Christ coming for the church, then the devil goes all out to try to pervert this relationship, as he knows how much God really hates it when people vary from what God designed for the family of Christ, (i.e., an abomination). In his twisted mind, Satan thinks that if he can keep enough people from being obedient to God in this regard, as well as others, he can prevent Jesus from coming back. Every time that someone commits adultery, fornication, gay sex or any perversion of God’s design for intimacy, it is an abomination to God because in essence the person thumbs their nose at God and says in pride, “I will do it my way.” Homosexuality is probably at the top of the abomination list because by encouraging this behavior the devil is essentially saying that the man, (who represents Christ) is ‘incapable’ of loving the woman, (who represents the church), therefore the whole ‘plan of God’ is no good.

Ephesians 5:22-33 -

22Wives, submit to your own husbands, as to the Lord. 23For the husband is head of the wife, as also Christ is head of the church; and He is the Savior of the body. 24Therefore, just as the church is subject to Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in everything. 25Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ also loved the church and gave Himself for her, 26that He might sanctify and cleanse her with the washing of water by the word, 27that He might present her to Himself a glorious church, not having spot or wrinkle or any such thing, but that she should be holy and without blemish. 28So husbands ought to love their own wives as their own bodies; he who loves his wife loves himself. 29For no one ever hated his own flesh, but nourishes and cherishes it, just as the Lord does the church. 30For we are members of His body, of His flesh and of His bones. 31“For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh.” 32This is a great mystery, but I speak concerning Christ and the church. 33Nevertheless let each one of you in particular so love his own wife as himself, and let the wife see that she respects her husband.

Most people do not understand, and the modern church does not properly teach people, how to receive and operate in the power of God through Jesus and the Holy Spirit. Therefore even if homosexuals, (or anyone who ‘struggles with’ any sin for that matter), want to be free, the average Christian, (even leaders) cannot really tell them or help them defeat the enemy, since they have no real power in their lives either. Jesus and the apostles showed us the way to receive and operate in the power of God by walking in the Spirit. It has taken me years of study under the direct guidance of the Holy Spirit, (mostly quite apart from the church) to understand these matters. God has laid it all out to me in a series of teachings and a book that He has had me write. I have posted the information as to how to get to the website containing these teachings and free book in the links section of this site. If a person will go to the website, download the free teachings and book, read them and ask God to help to receive from Him wisdom, understanding and knowledge, these things will become ‘simple’ and then the devil will fear that person. They too can have total victory over EVERY sin and become ‘perfect’ or mature in Christ. This MUST happen before Jesus will come back!

II Corinthians 11:1-4 -

1Oh, that you would bear with me in a little folly—and indeed you do bear with me. 2For I am jealous for you with godly jealousy. For I have betrothed you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ. 3But I fear, lest somehow, as the serpent deceived Eve by his craftiness, so your minds may be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ. 4For if he who comes preaches another Jesus whom we have not preached, or if you receive a different spirit which you have not received, or a different gospel which you have not accepted—you may well put up with it!

Ephesians 4:11-24 -

11And He Himself gave some to be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, and some pastors and teachers, 12for the equipping of the saints for the work of ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ, 13till we all come to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a perfect man, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ; 14that we should no longer be children, tossed to and fro and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the trickery of men, in the cunning craftiness of deceitful plotting, 15but, speaking the truth in love, may grow up in all things into Him who is the head—Christ— 16from whom the whole body, joined and knit together by what every joint supplies, according to the effective working by which every part does its share, causes growth of the body for the edifying of itself in love.

17This I say, therefore, and testify in the Lord, that you should no longer walk as the rest of the Gentiles walk, in the futility of their mind, 18having their understanding darkened, being alienated from the life of God, because of the ignorance that is in them, because of the blindness of their heart; 19who, being past feeling, have given themselves over to lewdness, to work all uncleanness with greediness. 20But you have not so learned Christ, 21if indeed you have heard Him and have been taught by Him, as the truth is in Jesus: 22that you put off, concerning your former conduct, the old man which grows corrupt according to the deceitful lusts, 23and be renewed in the spirit of your mind, 24and that you put on the new man which was created according to God, in true righteousness and holiness.

If people refuse to obey God, receive Christ and walk in the Spirit, but rather want to walk in the lust of the flesh, God will give them over to those desires in order to destroy the body in hopes that they will get sick and tired of being sick and tired, then turn to Him for healing. I address these issues in the teachings entitled 'The Truth About Healing' and 'Have You Believed the Lie?'. I often tell people if cancer or HIV/AIDS is what it takes for the person to come to God and stay out of the lake of fire, it is well worth it.

Deuteronomy 32:39 -

39 ‘Now see that I, even I, am He,
And there is no God besides Me;
I kill and I make alive;
I wound and I heal;
Nor is there any who can deliver from My hand.

Romans 1:18-32 -

18For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, 19because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. 20For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse, 21because, although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22Professing to be wise, they became fools, 23and changed the glory of the incorruptible God into an image made like corruptible man—and birds and four-footed animals and creeping things. 24Therefore God also gave them up to uncleanness, in the lusts of their hearts, to dishonor their bodies among themselves, 25who exchanged the truth of God for the lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen. 26For this reason God gave them up to vile passions. For even their women exchanged the natural use for what is against nature. 27Likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust for one another, men with men committing what is shameful, and receiving in themselves the penalty of their error which was due. 28And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a debased mind, to do those things which are not fitting; 29being filled with all unrighteousness, sexual immorality, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, evil-mindedness; they are whisperers, 30backbiters, haters of God, violent, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents, 31undiscerning, untrustworthy, unloving, unforgiving, unmerciful; 32who, knowing the righteous judgment of God, that those who practice such things are deserving of death, not only do the same but also approve of those who practice them.

I Corinthians 5:1-8 -

1It is actually reported that there is sexual immorality among you, and such sexual immorality as is not even named among the Gentiles—that a man has his father’s wife! 2And you are puffed up, and have not rather mourned, that he who has done this deed might be taken away from among you. 3For I indeed, as absent in body but present in spirit, have already judged (as though I were present) him who has so done this deed. 4In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when you are gathered together, along with my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ, 5deliver such a one to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus. 6Your glorying is not good. Do you not know that a little leaven leavens the whole lump? 7Therefore purge out the old leaven, that you may be a new lump, since you truly are unleavened. For indeed Christ, our Passover, was sacrificed for us. 8Therefore let us keep the feast, not with old leaven, nor with the leaven of malice and wickedness, but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth.


Hope this helps.

Be blessed,

Dr. Ray
 
Very interesting word study there, I may have to bring that up in an online sabbath study with Hebrew speaking people. Perhaps Nehemiah Gordon could help out with that, but he's quite the busy man.

But really, I don't fault the translators for using the word abomination for this, because what is abominable to Yahweh should be abominable to us as well, after all, are we not his children, made in his image and likeness? If it's disgusting and disfavorable to him, how can we think it's almost not evil?
 
WomanseekingGod,

Thats very constructive. We're on the same page throughout. I understand what you said about the futility of telling homosexuals that homosexuality is wrong, its actually part of why I want to understand the concept in fine detail. In general people who practise homosexuality are on some level aware that Christians and the Bible are somehow against them, I can't very well talk about Christ and God without the fact that God condemns homosexuality coming up. That gives them (well, the few I've talked to, and I imagine it would more) the opportunity to be defencive and not hear anything else out. If the Bible is clear not only that it's wrong, but precisely why, and its for health reasons, then I can say 'well, there are serious health issues associated with it and that's why the Bible was against it in the first place.' and move on. The ability to give an understandable reason would give me the chance to carry on with the core gospel and hopefully prevent them from being defencive long enough to understand why we are Christian. What I honestly want is a technique to disarm defensiveness so I can have more time for people to hear.

Thank you very much.
Jair
 
Hey Ray,

I don't want to be contentious but I've seen a demon tear a bloody strip off a horse in front of a bunch of people, I've seen them throw people around rooms, I've seen the almost passe' causing otherwise healthy people to throw foaming spazmastic fits, on one interesting occasion an apostate Christian used the Internet to summon them, that one caught me off guard but in hind site I should have anticipated it better. I haven't personally see any male homosexuals with active demon possession. Of course a male homosexual could additionally have a demonic contract, but it isn't necessarily so.

Of course they are probably as gleeful about male homosexuality as the Jackass movies or anything else people do to hurt themselves, but I can't help but think you're underestimating human capacity to freely choose bad idea's wholly of their own accord. As WSG would probably note, I'm oversimplifying the choice, but there is a point of decision to most every action in a persons life.

I should note that homosexuality isn't on top of the abomination list, its actually pretty close to the bottom. Idolatry is on top, and I think you and I can both say a lot about that.

Things are pretty simple, and I've never dealt with the devil himself but his lackeys sure don't like me. Things are simple, but I don't know enough about everything, and if I want to care for people who practise homosexuality one thing I must do is have a clear understanding of the reason for the prohibition. When I use it, symbology and metephorical thinking is remarkably ineffective. Someone else may be able to use it better, but for me to win people I need to be able to relate people to the practical.

Thanks for the post,
Jair
 
^_^,

You're offer to bring it up with Hebrew speaking people is quite incredible. If you are able I would greatly appreciate it.

You're right, abomination really does work for this, but I think abomination is the wrong English word for Sheh-kets and Pig-gool, as they are fairly different topics and it kind of muddies the word. Well, perhaps not, as far as abomination is what God hates he certainly would hate his people eating unhealthy and disgusting things.

I kind of subscribe to the view that God hates the stupid things we do to hurt ourselves and others. Obidence to Him is good for us on a natural level as well as supernatural. That God hates any of these things is more than enough for us to never do them, but I don't think he hates anything on a whim, so if we dig a little well see more and more obvious reasons to do as we're told.

Thanks ^_^,
Jair
 
Jair,

You are correct in speaking about simplicity, as most people make the simplicity that is in Christ too complex for others to comprehend. This too is demonic...

II Corinthians 11:3 - (NKJV)

3But I fear, lest somehow, as the serpent deceived Eve by his craftiness, so your minds may be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.

As I am sure you know, the way that God set up the current earth is that there is a spirit realm and a natural realm which is in the image of the spirit realm. He separated the kingdom of light, (i.e., Jesus, the Holy Spirit and the two thirds remaining good angels after the fall of Lucifer) from the kingdom of darkness, (i.e., Satan and the one third fallen angels) before He restored the natural realm...

Genesis 1:1-5 -

1In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. 2The earth was without form, and void; and darkness was on the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God was hovering over the face of the waters. 3Then God said, “Let there be light”; and there was light. 4And God saw the light, that it was good; and God divided the light from the darkness. 5God called the light Day, and the darkness He called Night. So the evening and the morning were the first day.

Luke 10:18 -

18And He said to them, “I saw Satan fall like lightning from heaven.

Revelation 12:3-4a -

3And another sign appeared in heaven: behold, a great, fiery red dragon having seven heads and ten horns, and seven diadems on his heads. 4His tail drew a third of the stars of heaven and threw them to the earth.

Revelation 12:7-9 -

7And war broke out in heaven: Michael and his angels fought with the dragon; and the dragon and his angels fought, 8but they did not prevail, nor was a place found for them in heaven any longer. 9So the great dragon was cast out, that serpent of old, called the Devil and Satan, who deceives the whole world; he was cast to the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

Everything that humans do or say in the earth gives authority to one or the other kingdoms. If someone does not give God glory in what they do or say, they by default are operating for the kingdom of darkness, even if it is for the instant...

Proverbs 18:20-21 -

20 A man’s stomach shall be satisfied from the fruit of his mouth,
From the produce of his lips he shall be filled.
21 Death and life are in the power of the tongue,
And those who love it will eat its fruit.

Matthew 16:22-27 -

22Then Peter took Him aside and began to rebuke Him, saying, “Far be it from You, Lord; this shall not happen to You!” 23But He turned and said to Peter, “Get behind Me, Satan! You are an offense to Me, for you are not mindful of the things of God, but the things of men.”
24Then Jesus said to His disciples, “If anyone desires to come after Me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow Me. 25“For whoever desires to save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for My sake will find it. 26“For what profit is it to a man if he gains the whole world, and loses his own soul? Or what will a man give in exchange for his soul? 27“For the Son of Man will come in the glory of His Father with His angels, and then He will reward each according to his works.

Homosexuality is no different from any other sin, except that it goes against the very symbolic plan of God through Jesus and the Church as I mentioned above. Anything that is counter to faith in God through Jesus Christ is a sin...

Romans 14:23 -

23But he who doubts is condemned if he eats, because he does not eat from faith; for whatever is not from faith is sin.

Anything humans do that does not give glory to God through Jesus does not work for or with those who belong to the kingdom of light, (now including true Christians) and therefore by default works with and for the kingdom of darkness, (now including all non-Christians). That is how EVERYTHING in the earth works for humans. Yes it is a choice and most make the wrong choice, but it is demonic activity that is at the root of every evil thing that humans say or do. This is a simplistic description of the way it works in the earth, but true nonetheless. Thus, homosexuality may be the person’s choice, but it is a demonic spirit that cooperates with the person to carry out the sin. Possession or simply oppression by the spirit makes no difference, it is worldly wisdom that says it is ‘okay’ and that comes from the devil.

Deuteronomy 30:19-20 -

19“I call heaven and earth as witnesses today against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing; therefore choose life, that both you and your descendants may live; 20“that you may love the LORD your God, that you may obey His voice, and that you may cling to Him, for He is your life and the length of your days; and that you may dwell in the land which the LORD swore to your fathers, to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, to give them.”

James 3:13-18 -

13Who is wise and understanding among you? Let him show by good conduct that his works are done in the meekness of wisdom. 14But if you have bitter envy and self-seeking in your hearts, do not boast and lie against the truth. 15This wisdom does not descend from above, but is earthly, sensual, demonic. 16For where envy and self-seeking exist, confusion and every evil thing are there. 17But the wisdom that is from above is first pure, then peaceable, gentle, willing to yield, full of mercy and good fruits, without partiality and without hypocrisy. 18Now the fruit of righteousness is sown in peace by those who make peace.

It is only by the power of the Holy Spirit, through Jesus Christ, that anyone can come out from under the power of Satan with regards to homosexuality, or any other sin that a person is saddled with. This is how God created us and we just need to learn the rules and how to operate by the rules in order to defeat the enemy in all that he does. Trying to find a humanistic approach to the spirit realm will fail every time, because ultimately it comes from human wisdom and NOT the wisdom of God. Human wisdom comes from Satan himself, (see James 3:15 above). If someone wants to be victorious over the enemy, they must operate in the wisdom, understanding and knowledge that come only from God. However, unless someone fears God and obeys Him, that wisdom, understanding and knowledge will never even begin to come to them, no matter how much they pray for it, because God is not going to give His power to disobedient people, they will just destroy themselves and others...

Psalm 111:10 -

10 The fear of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom;
A good understanding have all those who do His commandments.
His praise endures forever.

Proverbs 1:7 -

7 The fear of the LORD is the beginning of knowledge,
But fools despise wisdom and instruction.

Proverbs 1:20-Chapter 2 -

20 Wisdom calls aloud outside;
She raises her voice in the open squares.
21 She cries out in the chief concourses,
At the openings of the gates in the city
She speaks her words:
22 “How long, you simple ones, will you love simplicity?
For scorners delight in their scorning,
And fools hate knowledge.
23 Turn at my rebuke;
Surely I will pour out my spirit on you;
I will make my words known to you.
24 Because I have called and you refused,
I have stretched out my hand and no one regarded,
25 Because you disdained all my counsel,
And would have none of my rebuke,
26 I also will laugh at your calamity;
I will mock when your terror comes,
27 When your terror comes like a storm,
And your destruction comes like a whirlwind,
When distress and anguish come upon you.
28 “Then they will call on me, but I will not answer;
They will seek me diligently, but they will not find me.
29 Because they hated knowledge
And did not choose the fear of the LORD,
30 They would have none of my counsel
And despised my every rebuke.
31 Therefore they shall eat the fruit of their own way,
And be filled to the full with their own fancies.
32 For the turning away of the simple will slay them,
And the complacency of fools will destroy them;
33 But whoever listens to me will dwell safely,
And will be secure, without fear of evil.”

Chapter 2
1 My son, if you receive my words,
And treasure my commands within you,
2 So that you incline your ear to wisdom,
And apply your heart to understanding;
3 Yes, if you cry out for discernment,
And lift up your voice for understanding,
4 If you seek her as silver,
And search for her as for hidden treasures;
5 Then you will understand the fear of the LORD,
And find the knowledge of God.
6 For the LORD gives wisdom;
From His mouth come knowledge and understanding;
7 He stores up sound wisdom for the upright;
He is a shield to those who walk uprightly;
8 He guards the paths of justice,
And preserves the way of His saints.
9 Then you will understand righteousness and justice,
Equity and every good path.
10 When wisdom enters your heart,
And knowledge is pleasant to your soul,
11 Discretion will preserve you;
Understanding will keep you,
12 To deliver you from the way of evil,
From the man who speaks perverse things,
13 From those who leave the paths of uprightness
To walk in the ways of darkness;
14 Who rejoice in doing evil,
And delight in the perversity of the wicked;
15 Whose ways are crooked,
And who are devious in their paths;
16 To deliver you from the immoral woman,
From the seductress who flatters with her words,
17 Who forsakes the companion of her youth,
And forgets the covenant of her God.
18 For her house leads down to death,
And her paths to the dead;
19 None who go to her return,
Nor do they regain the paths of life—
20 So you may walk in the way of goodness,
And keep to the paths of righteousness.
21 For the upright will dwell in the land,
And the blameless will remain in it;
22 But the wicked will be cut off from the earth,
And the unfaithful will be uprooted from it.

Proverbs 3:19-20 -

19 The LORD by wisdom founded the earth;
By understanding He established the heavens;
20 By His knowledge the depths were broken up,
And clouds drop down the dew.

Proverbs 24:3-4 -

3 Through wisdom a house is built,
And by understanding it is established;
4 By knowledge the rooms are filled
With all precious and pleasant riches.

This is how it works. The problem lies in the fact that the Christian church at large does not know these simple things and therefore, the average Christian never gets to the place where they truly have power over the devil and his demons in the way that Jesus suffered and died for us to have. They get saved, but never get to the place of victory in Christ. The latter is where I live and operate. Anyone who comes to me with a problem gets the answer, because that answer comes from the wisdom of God that He has so graciously shared with me through His Son Jesus and the Holy Spirit. However, this victorious place in which I live and operate comes at a high cost. I have had to give up everything material that I had worked most of my life to have, that most people would hold as precious, and seek only after the things of God. I still have a comfortable life with all my physical needs filled, but I had to leave the United States and take refuge in a foreign land and suffering all the things that come with doing that. However, I am truly better off than I would have been if I had stayed in America. I know that this is a long dissertation, but if you have seen and experienced the demonic spirit realm as you say you have then you know what we are up against. Homosexuals operate for the kingdom of darkness. No psychological approach will help them permanently. It is only through the power of God that they can come out from under that bondage. However, that too is a choice.

It appears to me as though we may do better to have a dialogue privately if you wish. Please feel free to contact me if you wish at my e-mail address - perfection777@live.com.

Be blessed,

Dr. Ray
 
Doc Ray,

I suppose supranatural talk is somewhat taboo these days so it's difficult for two people to have the same terms whatever they are talking about. I suppose you are talking about the ebb and flow and subtle interaction of the spirit as somewhat described in The Screwtape Letters, if you're familiar with that work for a point of context.

I would contend from reason and from experience that there is a stark difference between influence and possession. Influence still allows operations of will and choice while possession does not. To that end influence is much more pernicious. It is by our choices and intent that we make ourselves who we are, and by our choice we shape our will which is the element of ourselves subject to final judgement.

The distinction is most clear in that the level and kind of authority we may express is related to the level demons have taken it too. If one is possessed we may respond measure for measure to restore free will, if we are talking about influence then we must operate with compassion, persuasion, and wisdom.

Like you said, in this context we are talking about any sin, not just the context of this thread, but threads always wander to good conversations so let us continue.

Perhaps I will be better understood like this. In this war of ours the cities, the main tactical objective, are the people's hearts. Our adversary is weak, there is no two ways about that, he is a pithence of a rebellion with no hope of success bent only to harm people out of spite. Whatever conflict we have with him in field or fort he is hopelessly defeated. But if we force the enemy out of a rebellious city, the city will only rebel and our effort is lost, we cannot destroy the city for it is our objective. The enemy will reoccupy the city with no losses, and if we attack again we move only against the city itself, and that is in our enemies interest rather than our own. So, despite being at war our main objective is to promote understanding, so we may take and build up great cities without rebellion. We must understand our campaign, and why each of our enemies are what they are, that we may explain it and prevent the rebellion from hurting and destroying more of its targets.

Whatever action the devil takes is a small thing compared to the choices people make. The problem with male homosexuality is that it is a venue to hurt the people who practise it and those around them. This comes out loud and clear with thinks like the Oxford Medical Journal on Epidemiology saying it shortens lifespans by on average 20 years (compared to smokings 8). The enemy can't win so its objective is to kill, steal, and destroy what our Lord God cares about. To that end our main objective is to protect and build up those people. That may at times come to engaging the enemy in direct contact, but for the most part it deals with caring for and teaching the people themselves.

The line between what is called natural and what is called supranatural is not so much a line as, well, a nothing. The rules which govern matter are not in themselves matter. Thought guides action and action influences thought. Every choice forms action forms habit forms identity. It would be a long road as WomanSeekingGod said for someone who lived and encouraged not only homosexual action, but made it a lifestyle. While instant transformation sometimes does happen, the norm would be an argues process of retraining and rewiring to move away from that. That too is not just homosexuals, but everyone who lived in sin and is working out of it. It may be called psychology, but it is not like humanistic psychology.

Well, this conversation is developing well, I am fine with it where it is, but even in person I am used to discussing serious matter in public.

God bless, its cool about living in South Africa and losing so much,

Jair
 
The spiritual side of a sexual relationship can not be underestimated and is probably the actual bondage in homosexual relationships. Sex between two individuals involves more than the physical. This explosion of the spiritual encounter is probably some of the wild passion we hope comes with great sex. In our lack of allowing God to join together, then an abomination may happen. Evil spirits exist and are like leaches upon unholy activity. These evil spirits like each other and relish absorbing energy and life from people lost in or taken in sin and willing to join with them. As Christians we are to be filled with the Holy Spirit. This is not theological ideas, scripture, Christian counseling, moral high ground, fellowship, or half the activities (even good ones) taking up the time of modern Christians. It is an actual filling of your temple by the Holy Spirit of God. God wants to be with you in purity and righteousness much as he did in the Jewish temple or tabernacle of the Old Test. He sent Christ to purify us by His blood to enable this temple activity and our bodies should be the temple of the Holy Ghost. Remember Christ's rough reaction and physical casting out individuals from the temple.

Allowing God to do the joining together might slow things down but it will not prevent a great relationship from growing. How do you do this when sexual problems are so persistent? Although scripture and Christian counseling may help, your first reaction to finding yourself in sin is the best, with however a helper. A first reaction after the evil sex occurs is "I am never going to do that again". However it may happen again anyway. You are weak. The Helper is the Holy Spirit of God. And it is the spoken word by the Holy Spirit in your spirit that brings release from your bondage.

We are failures alone, but with the Word of our Lord we share in the victory.

God assures us that he will shore us up when we are weak, and will come to us. Why do we not take the yoke that is easy and let God have the hard? God speaks power and righteousness into our spirits and will reserve our temple as belonging to God. We shall love purity and relish the touch of the Holy Spirit upon our souls. God has purchased our adoption through Christ his Son. We belong to God and he loves us and will bring victory to the fields of our hearts. Open to Gods presence, yield only to the most High.

Scripture does not need to be rewritten to solve your problem, but God can still talk and He can speak healing into your situation. The word of God is alive and well and we need it by the Holy Spirit inside our heart. Be filled with the Holy Spirit. He put your spirit into your body when you were conceived. He knows where the door for you is. He has been there at least once before. Open it and invite the Holy Spirit in and commune with God and you will not commune with evil spirits. Our Saviour makes the sweet savor of purity you now carry possible. Be presentable before our Lord.

This all applies to poly minded Christians also. Just because you find someone that might be a plural potential or are a woman that finds a plural home, does not mean that there is an automatic joining from God. God has to do it and that is what we all should be waiting on, and seeking God’s direction.

Sometimes I think that our prayers are not answered because we do not understand our own prayer or the answer from God. For instance many men attempt and are instructed by preachers, etc. to ask God to take away their general attraction to women once they are married in a monogamous relationship. I personally have doubts if God has ever answered this prayer for men. The answer of course involves admitting the attraction and giving it to God where God may supply a plural answer. It should also be noted that once this righteous approach is found God does not always give a second to the home but just the truth that the attraction belongs to God is enough to help with the temptation and self-judgement.
 
So I was trying to do research on this topic. And blatantly pro-homosexual websites. Tried to claim that it was about idol worship with shrine prostitutes in lev 18 and 20 not man on man. They said something like it is an abomination means it is an idol. After all their were other commands in the Bible against Shrine prostitution.

I will leave it to you to refute this argument. Using either old or new testament verses. I want to see how someone other than me would refute it, so that I see more ways to refute it.

Thou shalt notH3808 lieH7901 withH854 mankind,H2145 as withH4904 womankind:H802 itH1931 is abomination.H8441
Leviticus 18:22

H8441
תּעבה תּועבה
tô‛êbah tô‛êbah
to-ay-baw', to-ay-baw'
Feminine active participle of H8581; properly something disgusting (morally), that is, (as noun) an abhorrence; especially idolatry or (concretely) an idol: - abominable (custom, thing), abomination.
 
Abomination is used many times with no relation to idols, Idolatry is one abomination, and there are many others. I even listed quite a few non-idolatry related abominations in my first post here. Its a nonsense argument.

I don't know if it takes any more than that to refute it.
 
DiscussingTheTopic said:
So I was trying to do research on this topic. And blatantly pro-homosexual websites. Tried to claim that it was about idol worship with shrine prostitutes in lev 18 and 20 not man on man. They said something like it is an abomination means it is an idol. After all their were other commands in the Bible against Shrine prostitution.

I will leave it to you to refute this argument. Using either old or new testament verses. I want to see how someone other than me would refute it, so that I see more ways to refute it.

Thou shalt notH3808 lieH7901 withH854 mankind,H2145 as withH4904 womankind:H802 itH1931 is abomination.H8441
Leviticus 18:22

H8441
תּעבה תּועבה
tô‛êbah tô‛êbah
to-ay-baw', to-ay-baw'
Feminine active participle of H8581; properly something disgusting (morally), that is, (as noun) an abhorrence; especially idolatry or (concretely) an idol: - abominable (custom, thing), abomination.
Click to expand...

Since no one responded for a while to my question.

I am just going to mention that even if you some pro-homosexual tried to argue that Leviticus 18 does not prohibit man with man Romans 1:27 does prohibit man with man clearly. So such arguments are irrelevant.
 
Er, I did respond. Abomination is translated from several different roots and even when it relates to idolatry it is the large set where idolatry is one case. Abomination does not mean it is an idol or idolitry, and there is no indication whatsoever that either of these passages in any way relates to idolatry or temple prostitution.

Read strongs definition again but more carefully this time.

What is it does the root mean?

Something disgusting or abhorrent

What is a common example of this?

Idolatry

When he says "especially X" X is not what the word means but is a common example of what that word is applied too.

They've created an argument out of bad reading skills and no evidence whatsoever. I don't know what more you want to refute it.
 
Tlaloc said:
Idolatry

When he says "especially X" X is not what the word means but is a common example of what that word is applied too.

They've created an argument out of bad reading skills and no evidence whatsoever. I don't know what more you want to refute it.
Click to expand...

That is useful to know I always wondered what some of the symbols on the strong's meant (notice I did not copy and paste an X (or is X a symbol you use for fill in the blank that is not actually in the writing directly?)) I get my strong definitions from either e-sword or blueletterbible.org

I noticed that strong's on the computer program look different than on the website!
 
jI have always wondered why God comes down so strongly on homosexuality in the Leviticus passage. Bestiality, I cand understand. Incest, I cand understand. There are valid, scientific reasons for prohibiting those pracices, yet I cannot think what makes Homosexual relationships so evil in his sight.. Arguments such as "the bits don't fit together" and "disease is a real problem here" don't hold any water with me, although by necessity I do hold homosexuality as wrong. First of all, marriage, as far as I know, was created by God to give man companionship, not kids. So it would seem to me that the argument is null. Second, risk of disease can exist in any marriage. What makes homosexuality so singled out? (I admit I am not a medical professional so I could have a completely backwards view here.) I cannot fathom why God would disapprove of a homosexual married couple that are just as God-fearing a biblical sound heterosexual marriage. While I have not met any couples myself personally. I know many people who do and they tell me that some of the kindest, big-hearted people they know. People that are in almost every true sense of the word, except in this regard, Christian. So why does God have problem with it. What exactly is it about homosexuality that causes God to label it with such a sensitive term. I honestly wish God would have been a bit more vocal on this subject.
 
Crossgeared Viking, there is a much greater chance of disease transmission with at least male homosexuality than with heterosexuality, medically. To put it bluntly, this is because God didn't design an anus for sex. The membranes are too flimsy. They get damaged, exposing blood, which allows direct transmission of disease through bodily fluid contact. This is why AIDS is such a major problem in the homosexual community, far greater than among heterosexuals - things like that spread like wildfire among gay men.

I often hear people say "but gays are really nice people", and that's entirely true. This has nothing to do with whether people are kind, or big-hearted. In fact, we can expect most gays to be very nice people, because it's actually necessary for them to be. A man would have to be REALLY nice to persuade me to sleep with him... :o

The one, really important marriage, through all of history, is that between God and His people. Entirely secondary to this, because God loves us so much, He has allowed us to experience this on a small scale between each other on earth, through heterosexual marriage. Heterosexual marriage illustrates our marriage with Christ, allows us to practice how we should behave in that marriage, and lets us illustrate loving husbands and fathers on earth so when we talk about God being a loving husband and father people will know what we are talking about. Heterosexual marriage has a spiritual purpose that is far greater than its practical, earthly purpose.

Homosexuality distorts marriage so it is no longer this illustration. God has chosen, in His wisdom, to forbid it. Health and other things come into it, but are secondary to the spiritual issues. Just as companionship and breeding come into heterosexual marriage but are secondary to its spiritual purpose.

God doesn't ban homosexuality because it can make you sick, He bans it because it doesn't suit His plan for mankind. And it can make you sick too.

Does that help?
 
I know that this is a little off of where this topic has gone, but thought that I would share this verse.

Pro 17:15 He that justifiethH6663 the wicked,H7563 and he that condemnethH7561 the just,H6662 evenH1571 they bothH8147 are abominationH8441 to YHWH.H3068

This verse has made me stop and think over and over. It is so easy to say something condemning to someone who is actually within the instructions in the Torah. It is also easy in this PC world to justify someone who is not obeying YHWH's instructions. So I pray and think about this often. The last thing that I want to be is an abomination.

Thank you for the discussion, it has been very interesting. :D
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top