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The humility of patriarchy

FollowingHim

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I have just taken over management of my elderly grandfather's farm, and am now farming in loose collaboration with both him and my father. This is a fantastic development for myself personally, my family, and our extended family. It is exactly where God wants me to be at this stage of life.

However, it raises a thorny issue around sabbath-keeping. For many years we have kept a Saturday sabbath. This came about partly for practical reasons (Saturday simply worked better for us), and partly out of religious conviction (Saturday is simply the more accurate timing for Sabbath, there is no convincing scriptural support for the change to Sunday).

My father and grandfather on the other hand keep a Sunday sabbath - and for my grandfather in particular this is a matter of deep religious conviction. My entire life he has told me a story of one of my great-grandfathers, who would never work on Sunday. One year the weather was terrible at harvest time, then the weather came right for harvest on Sunday. He refused to head the crop because he would not work on Sunday. The next day rain set in and he lost the crop. But overall, that year was the most profitable he had ever had - God blessed every other venture on his farm that year. This story has inspired my grandfather all his life, and he has told it repeatedly all of my life.

It is not possible to take a 2 day weekend when farming. It's a struggle to even take one day off. So keeping both is not an option.
Working on Sunday on my grandfather's property, which he still lives on, would deeply offend him - it would not honour him.
Working on Saturday is against my own conviction.

So what do I do?

The answer is very simple, and is provided by patriarchy - and this is a test of whether I am truly serious about it. Patriarchy is not just about me being the head of my wife and children - it also extends upwards, to my grandfather's position as patriarch of our entire family. I cannot just preach patriarchy when it makes me the boss, and ignore it when it puts any obligations on me - that would be hypocritical.

So we are back to keeping a Sunday sabbath.

I must say this has been a very difficult issue for me, and for Sarah even more so. This is a conclusion that was not reached lightly. But the Church is a patriarchal hierarchy, and as such I need to voluntarily honour my elders just as I expect my wife and children to voluntarily honour me. One day I will operate independently again, or become the family patriarch, and I may order things differently then. But that is not the case today.

I share this not to debate the day of sabbath. I know people will be tempted to argue that, and I have no interest in having that debate. That, to me, is a side-issue, just one issue out of thousands that I could have used as an illustrative point, but which just happens to be the one of most relevance to me today.

My actual point is that patriarchy is not just about being the boss - it is also about being a servant. It is about humility, not self-promotion. Humbling yourself to take your place in a military-style hierarchy in which you are only a junior officer, not the king.

And if we can humble ourselves to honour our elders, we can demonstrate to our wives and children the humility that we expect from them towards us. Leading by example rather than by dictate.


(Putting my staff hat on - I'm serious that this thread is not to debate sabbath, we've had that sort of debate many times already, I'll just delete any comment debating sabbath because that is not the topic of this thread. This thread is about patriarchy, and how it is about so much more than just getting to be the boss of your wife).
 
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Thanks for sharing @FollowingHim, I love it on so many levels. @NVIII it seems relevant that @FollowingHim is working with/for his father and grandfather, where as Gen 2 specifically talks about marriage as some thing a man LEAVES his father and mother to do.
Yet Benjamin was married and had children, yet obeyed his father who refused to let him go to Egypt with his brothers.
 
If we are using military language then one is only required to follow a "lawful order." If the General gives a lawful order, and a Colonel gives an unlawful order to his troops thinking it is in line with the general's orders, the Lieutenant has grounds to refuse the unlawful order. He'll most likely be punished by the Colonel, but an appeal to the General will, in time, correct the issue... Usually well after another unlawful order to dismiss the Lieutenant is sent, and dozens of troops die, but at least the lieutenant can live with his conscience.

Humility to THE Father is of greater import.
 
So, this is interesting, because the existence of my second wife deeply offends my father.
And that really is where things get difficult, isn't it? To be honest, my father was not in agreement with my choice of a first wife. Was I right in proceeding with my own choice of wife? This is unhelpful speculation because these choices have been made and are permanent.

However, thinking hypothetically, it may be that had you chosen not to take a second wife in order to honour your father, despite your personal disagreement, that overt obedience to your father may have been rewarded. It might even have been rewarded by your father, convinced by your sincerity, looking into the matter further and ultimately expressing agreement with you taking a second wife.

But all this is hypothetical - we cannot know what the future would have been with different choices. All we have are the choices before us today.
 
The passage that really convicted me of this is Jeremiah 35. Note carefully that the instructions given by the ancestor of these men were extremely wide-reaching and hard to follow - no alcohol, no houses, no sowing seed, no planting plants, no tending vineyards - it limited them to living in tents and keeping livestock rather than growing any crops. They had every practical reason to disobey these instructions. Their father had no justifiable scriptural reason to tell his descendants they could not do so many things that are clearly permissible. Keep that in mind:
The word that came to Jeremiah from the Lord in the days of Jehoiakim the son of Josiah, king of Judah: “Go to the house of the Rechabites and speak with them and bring them to the house of the Lord, into one of the chambers; then offer them wine to drink.” So I took Jaazaniah the son of Jeremiah, son of Habazziniah and his brothers and all his sons and the whole house of the Rechabites. I brought them to the house of the Lord into the chamber of the sons of Hanan the son of Igdaliah, the man of God, which was near the chamber of the officials, above the chamber of Maaseiah the son of Shallum, keeper of the threshold. Then I set before the Rechabites pitchers full of wine, and cups, and I said to them, “Drink wine.” But they answered, “We will drink no wine, for Jonadab the son of Rechab, our father, commanded us, ‘You shall not drink wine, neither you nor your sons forever. You shall not build a house; you shall not sow seed; you shall not plant or have a vineyard; but you shall live in tents all your days, that you may live many days in the land where you sojourn.’ We have obeyed the voice of Jonadab the son of Rechab, our father, in all that he commanded us, to drink no wine all our days, ourselves, our wives, our sons, or our daughters, and not to build houses to dwell in. We have no vineyard or field or seed, but we have lived in tents and have obeyed and done all that Jonadab our father commanded us. But when Nebuchadnezzar king of Babylon came up against the land, we said, ‘Come, and let us go to Jerusalem for fear of the army of the Chaldeans and the army of the Syrians.’ So we are living in Jerusalem.”

Then the word of the Lord came to Jeremiah: “Thus says the Lord of hosts, the God of Israel: Go and say to the people of Judah and the inhabitants of Jerusalem, Will you not receive instruction and listen to my words? declares the Lord. The command that Jonadab the son of Rechab gave to his sons, to drink no wine, has been kept, and they drink none to this day, for they have obeyed their father's command. I have spoken to you persistently, but you have not listened to me. I have sent to you all my servants the prophets, sending them persistently, saying, ‘Turn now every one of you from his evil way, and amend your deeds, and do not go after other gods to serve them, and then you shall dwell in the land that I gave to you and your fathers.’ But you did not incline your ear or listen to me. The sons of Jonadab the son of Rechab have kept the command that their father gave them, but this people has not obeyed me. Therefore, thus says the Lord, the God of hosts, the God of Israel: Behold, I am bringing upon Judah and all the inhabitants of Jerusalem all the disaster that I have pronounced against them, because I have spoken to them and they have not listened, I have called to them and they have not answered.”

But to the house of the Rechabites Jeremiah said, “Thus says the Lord of hosts, the God of Israel: Because you have obeyed the command of Jonadab your father and kept all his precepts and done all that he commanded you, therefore thus says the Lord of hosts, the God of Israel: Jonadab the son of Rechab shall never lack a man to stand before me.
 
Interesting post @FollowingHim. Thanks for sharing. This is a good topic for us all to consider.

I hope all goes well as you farm with your grandfather. 👍

I do have to laugh a little at the apparent contradiction present in two of your statements. 😉

(Putting my staff hat on - I'm serious that this thread is not to debate sabbath, we've had that sort of debate many times already, I'll just delete any comment debating sabbath because that is not the topic of this thread.

And then this

Saturday is simply the more accurate timing for Sabbath, there is no convincing scriptural support for the change to Sunday

Perhaps you should have heeded your own instruction.
😄
 
The passage that really convicted me of this is Jeremiah 35. Note carefully that the instructions given by the ancestor of these men were extremely wide-reaching and hard to follow - no alcohol, no houses, no sowing seed, no planting plants, no tending vineyards - it limited them to living in tents and keeping livestock rather than growing any crops. They had every practical reason to disobey these instructions. Their father had no justifiable scriptural reason to tell his descendants they could not do so many things that are clearly permissible. Keep that in mind:
That is a very interesting passage, one we should all ponder.
 
Humility to THE Father is of greater import.
Absolutely. And the Father who commands us to "remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy" also commands us to "honour thy father and mother". If we choose to follow one of his commands in a way that means flagrantly disobeying another, we would be in rebellion. We must find a way to obey all to the greatest extent possible.
 
My father in law counseled his sons not to marry mormons. Well, I was one of those when we met. He is very happy with the choice he made....and is now blessed with a second too that he might not have had....with a different first wife.
We do only know the outcome of the choices we actually make.
 
Does it honor your grandfather to obey him when he says you should murder? Or commit adultery? Those are also capital crimes equivalent to breaking Sabbath. Does it dishonor him that you've just witnessed against him in public that you believe he regularly commits a capital crime against the Lord of the Sabbath?

Blind obedience and honor are not always the same. You can honor your father while still disobeying him when he gives you an unlawful command. But you absolutely do dishonor the Lord when you place your grandfather as a higher power than the Lord. Choose your master, because if you are willing to trade your life in order to obey your grandfather in his committing a capital offense against his Father, then there's nothing else stopping your grandfather from telling you to do ANYTHING. Your grandfather becomes your elohim.

The Rechabites were not commanded to violate any command of the Lord. You are being commanded to knowingly violate a command of the Lord, and are seriously considering it. I doubt the man stoned to death for gathering sticks on Sabbath would have been given much slack had he said "my grandfather told me to." Instead the grandfather would almost certainly have been tried as well for inciting rebellion.

Have you asked him yet what happens if you keep Sabbath and he keeps Sunday? Sounds like the animals get taken care of either way. He can go to his Sunday church thing while you are watching the flock. Sounds like you being offset a day would be quite the blessing for him.

And I'll say this also. Not too long ago I put myself in a similar situation with my own dad. I got it in my head that to honor meant to obey without question, but at the same time knew such power came with huge responsibility for him. When I presented that belief, it ended up backfiring, because in essence I was just offloading any and all of my personal responsibility onto him. He actually rejected my errant obiesance and worship, so kuddos to him for that. I found that maturity and righteousness, taking personal responsibility, and growing my house are what bring him honor too, far more than being a brainless robot just following orders. If I do the good that I see my father doing, then that honors him without having to wait hand and foot for his every micromanaging command. (I was the one trying to get him to micromanage because of my misunderstanding. Just so there's no confusion.) There's still some wrinkles for me to iron out in the aftermath, so full disclosure that I made a decision similar to your proposed action, and I'm still trying to fix issues brought up by my similar misunderstanding. I still truly think honoring our fathers is the only of the 10 Sayings with a promise for good reason, but am not convinced "honor" = "obey to the point that you disobey the Lord." What General says "obey all orders from my subordinates, even ones that openly counteract, rebel against, and sabbotage my orders." Who is really in charge then?

I know I went a tad hyperbolic, but hopefully you see I'm just questioning the interpretation of the commandment. Kinda like we all did with "adultery." There's more to this command than we are being told by our English Greco-Roman understanding.
 
Does it dishonor him that you've just witnessed against him in public that you believe he regularly commits a capital crime against the Lord of the Sabbath?
I did not in any way say that. Do not assume I have the same highly legalistic perspective on sabbath as you do.

Sabbath means seventh. We are clearly commanded to respect the seventh day and keep it holy.
I believe the most historically accurate day to honour is Saturday.
On the other hand, if I were in a shipwreck, lost consciousness for an unknown period of time, and woke up on a desert island with no knowledge of what day it was - I would work for the first 6 days and rest the next one, and that would be respecting the seventh day and keeping it holy. It wouldn't matter if I had the day wrong, and was actually keeping Wednesday as a sabbath - what matters is the intent of the heart.

For the past 2000 years, the vast majority of followers of Yeshua have kept Sunday as their sabbath rest. Did God consider all of them to be "regularly committing a capital crime"? Did he reject all the saints down through the ages, who did so many great works for Him, because they happened to rigorously obey the 4th commandment but just on the wrong day? Nonsense. God looks at the heart.

He does not in any way look at a committed Sunday sabbath keeper as a sinner. He looks at them as a dedicated follower of Him, with one tiny little theological detail wrong. Like everyone has theological details wrong. Including both you and I.
 
Thanks for sharing @FollowingHim, I love it on so many levels. @NVIII it seems relevant that @FollowingHim is working with/for his father and grandfather, where as Gen 2 specifically talks about marriage as some thing a man LEAVES his father and mother to do.
Having the Gen 2. Discussion with my youngest son, currently he feels that he doesn’t have time for his home family ( didn’t know how to distinguish between the two) he works out of town so she the wife has a list for him to occupy him. I have told him he must set limits, and standards or he will never be in charge of his house.
I guess my question is with the exception of a couple of male characters in scripture where do I find the verse about the son and his family growing the fathers house? Am I wrong here? ( I know honey your mother and father) but where else?
I’m calling in all my brothers that have a better understanding than I.
 
@DawoodSaar, on further thought I really should point out a serious misunderstanding you have about this whole "honour your parents" thing.
Not too long ago I put myself in a similar situation with my own dad. I got it in my head that to honor meant to obey without question, but at the same time knew such power came with huge responsibility for him.
I still truly think honoring our fathers is the only of the 10 Sayings with a promise for good reason, but am not convinced "honor" = "obey to the point that you disobey the Lord."
Honour does not mean obey.

The Hebrew word "kabad" in Exodus 20:12 is NEVER translated "obey" anywhere in scripture.

I am honouring my grandfather. I am not obeying him. He has never even asked me to do this, let alone ordered me.

If you re-read my first post you will realise why it is important for me to treat my grandfather this way in order for him to feel honoured. I am choosing to treat him with respect and dignity, peacefully doing what I know he strongly believes is right, and not doing things which I know would deeply offend him, without even needing to be asked. This is how I would want my own children and my wife to treat me.

Honour is a concept that is almost foreign to our culture these days. It's not about obedience. It's so much more all-encompassing than that.

I think you stuffed up with your father solely because you took "honour" to mean "obey to some degree - but where is the line?". You tried to define honour in terms of obedience, rather than realising it's got almost nothing to do with obedience at all. Obedience is a separate matter - if you are helping your father you should obey him also, to whatever extent is reasonable for the job you are doing, just as you would obey an employer. But that's got almost nothing to do with honour.

If you want to know how to honour your father, and can't quite understand that, try considering how you would dishonour your father. Honouring is the opposite of that. You'll find it is quite a different concept.
 
Then what's the question even for? You already decided when you said Sabbath isn't a particular day. Shove your historical accuracy and the 3000 year trend of Sabbath being a certain particular day in the wood chipper right along with your conscience.

I eagerly await part two "my grandfather disagrees with polygyny, so to honor him I am leaving the forum." Can't have you actively advocating something he has strong religious convictions is wrong now can we? Tis only consistent.
 
Then what's the question even for? You already decided when you said Sabbath isn't a particular day. Shove your historical accuracy and the 3000 year trend of Sabbath being a certain particular day in the wood chipper right along with your conscience.

I eagerly await part two "my grandfather disagrees with polygyny, so to honor him I am leaving the forum." Can't have you actively advocating something he has strong religious convictions is wrong now can we? Tis only consistent.
You are being very unreasonable, please dial it back to a discussion.
 
You really don't get it @DawoodSaar. You have completely forgotten the context of this. My grandfather has had differing views on Sabbath to me for years, and we have practiced differently. But when I come to farm his own property where he lives, I defer to him to honour him. Who knows how many years he will live? I wish to live those years in harmony and treat him with the respect a grandfather deserves.

Forget sabbath for a minute, if you can. I want to know if you understand what honour means. Anyone can answer this by the way, but I really want to hear from @DawoodSaar.

Give one example of how you would dishonour your father or grandfather.

Give the opposite example of how you would honour them in the same circumstances.

Neither example should be fundamentally about obedience, that's too narrow, I'm keen to see us stretching our minds beyond that.
 
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