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The Law of sin and death

Nikud

Nikud

Seasoned Member
Real Person
Male
Genesis 2:17

but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die.”

This is this the first Law set by God.

Do not eat from the tree of knowledge of good and evil.

When Adam and Eve did they committed the first sin.

The punishment was death. Adam and Eve died spiritually. Separated from God. Genesis 3.

Romans 6:14

For sin will not have dominion over you. For you are not under law, but under grace

Romans 8:2

For The Law of The Spirit of Life which is in Yeshua The Messiah has freed you from the law of sin and of death.

Jesus freed us from the law of Sin and Death through grace.

Grace: the free and unmerited favor of God, as manifested in the salvation of sinners and the bestowal of blessings.

Salvation: deliverance from sin and its consequences, brought about by faith in Christ.

No longer will we be separated from God.

The loaded question

How does this then get applied to the belief that we don't have to follow Torah? In the past I have heard so many people quote, myself included, Romans 6:14 as justification that we don't have to.
 
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So this always blows my mind that anyone would equate God's law with sin and death. God's Law has always been about avoiding sin and death.

The law of sin and death is the original sin we're born into. You can get out of Torah without accusing God of in essence being evil or at least at some point commanding us to do evil. It is mind boggling to me that anyone would say God ever even speak words that could be described as sin and death. Very strange.
 
ZecAustin said:
You can get out of Torah without accusing God of in essence being evil or at least at some point commanding us to do evil.
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That's what I and alot of people I know have been doing. Lately every time every time someone does I heard

"Which of you, if his son asks for bread, will give him a stone? Or if he asks for a fish, will give him a snake?"

Rattling around in my head.
 
ZecAustin said:
The law of sin and death is the original sin we're born into.
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I agree. I don't know why it took me so long to realize that the law of sin an death was referring to the original sin that kept us from God.
 
Kevin said:
How does this then get applied to the belief that we don't have to follow Torah? In the past I have heard so many people quote, myself included, Romans 6:14 as justification that we don't have to.
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Speaking for this non-torah follower, I add to this Galatians. (Pretty much the whole book but for the pointy part I'll choose 2:19 For through the Law I died to the Law, so that I might live to God.)

Now the Law Paul is speaking of in this passage is very clearly the Law of Moses. As far as the Torah goes, it killed me. It killed me so that I might live to God. It was perfect for the job of condemning me as a dead man. It has had its perfect work, for behold, now I am alive in Christ, through faith. Follow the Torah? Why? I do not need a second killing, and there can no longer be any condemnation for me.

My old bloodthirsty tutor I will not submit to, nor yield obedience for even one hour. I now serve its Master. If in the service of our mutual Master, I do the things the Law requires, I won't make a pouty face. I shouldn't be surprised at some overlap. But where the Law says I should throw a stone of judgment, I will smile sweetly and offer mercy instead. The student has graduated.

What began in Galatians 2, culminates into Galatians 5:

2Behold I, Paul, say to you that if you receive circumcision, Christ will be of no benefit to you. 3And I testify again to every man who receives circumcision, that he is under obligation to keep the whole Law. 4You have been severed from Christ, you who are seeking to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace. 5For we through the Spirit, by faith, are waiting for the hope of righteousness. 6For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision means anything, but faith working through love

At which point I, a mere dog of the Gentiles, bid farewell to any attempts to get me to actually follow Torah. The idea of being severed from Christ is so repugnant that I will not approach the Law with a serious eye to obey it. Inside or outside the Law is meaningless in Christ Jesus, only faith working through love.

That is how a non-Torah follower addresses it. The Law of Sin and Death might be as you say, only in reference to what happened in the garden. I question that it is so, but Galatians quite sternly away from the motivation to dissect it. I've already been told plainly not to get circumcised, because it will mean I'll be obligated to keep the whole rest of the law. Why bother?
 
If I study for my driver's test. (Learn the word of God) Take the test and pass (ask for Jesus to save me, get baptised). Get my driver's Liscence and a car.(grace) Can i then speed down the high way or dive the wrong way down a one way street? I have my Liscence and a car.

Yes Jesus became the sacrifice and there is no need for any more sacrifices and there's nothing between us and God except Jesus.

Mathew 20:28

Just as the Son of man came, not to be ministered to, but to minister and to give his life as a ransom in exchange for many

Jesus said

Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them, but fullfill them.

Whether you read it as fullfill or fill up does not change the statement.

For I tell you truly, until heaven and earth pass away, not a single jot, not a stroke of a pen, will disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished

Just because everthing thing is accomplished ,except his return and our judgement, still doesn't mean he's going to to do away with them. I have yet to see where Jesus changes the law only where he adds to it.

Malachi 3:6

For I, the LORD, do not change

Look at divorce. Jesus says it's only acceptable in cases of adultery. Yet God never divorces us because of our adultery from him even though it is acceptable to do so.

2 Kings 17:37

"The statutes and the ordinances and the law and the commandment which He wrote for you, you shall observe to do forever; and you shall not fear other gods
 
That sounded confrontational and was not my intent.
 
I didn't take it that way, I think that was a fine answer to my question and I'm really enjoying talking to you.

The similarities are there, for sure. But driving practices vary from state to state and country to country, one cannot adhere to American driving laws in England. At the very least, one will be on the wrong side of the road, all the time, and cause a collision. But the basic principles of defensive driving or "driving in a manner least likely to result in death" apply in every civilized society. My American training will only be a little applicable, but the spirit behind the rules will always apply.

The Law is peculiarly Jewish, and much of the law cannot even be intelligibly practiced by a gentile. And the more rigorously one attempts to follow the whole Law (which one is obligated to do. The law does not hear excuses) , the less one is able to move the gospel across national and ethnic lines. I call as witness Paul who testified of himself

19Though I am free and belong to no one, I have made myself a slave to everyone, to win as many as possible. 20To the Jews I became like a Jew, to win the Jews. To those under the law I became like one under the law (though I myself am not under the law), so as to win those under the law. 21To those not having the law I became like one not having the law (though I am not free from God’s law but am under Christ’s law), so as to win those not having the law. 22To the weak I became weak, to win the weak. I have become all things to all people so that by all possible means I might save some. 23I do all this for the sake of the gospel, that I may share in its blessings.

Paul changes his behavior based on who he is around. He'll behave like a Jew around Jews (but not to the extent that he'll make Titus get circumcised) if perhaps he can win Jews to Christ. To those who don't have the law, he'll behave as though he was not beholden to the law (though not to the extent that he will act immorally or outside of love, for he is still under Christ's law).

Now, much of the law is about morality, and as you say, there is no expiration date for that. However, many of the penalties in the law cannot be carried out, or even if they could be, Jesus commands that people not carry them out. The same law that says that adultery is a sin also says that the punishment is to be put to death. How then are we following the law if we will not put away the evil from us by stoning? And yet Jesus puts a qualifier for judgment that is not found in the law, or if it is, I have not seen it.

Indeed, even if sacrifices were necessary or even a good thing to do (for many were simply offerings of thanksgiving), we could not because there is no temple.

So we agree that the moral laws are either still intact or made stricter, and that the sacrificial laws are superseded by Christ's sacrifice. What else is left? The feasts? The Sabbaths? Paul is weirded out that the Galatians are still doing them in 4:10 and I'm told in Romans 14:5 that it's totally cool to treat every day the same. (Which is impossible to do while observing the Sabbath)

I mean, I'm pretty tired right now so I could be missing something, but if the only difference between our approaches is how we feel about how we spend our Saturdays and various other holidays...

Oh wait diet. I forgot about the food.

woo I'm fading fast...

So what I'm saying is that the laws must be observed to do FOREVER. And then for various reasons we can't fulfill the civil laws or the ceremonial laws. I mean I can pretend to try to do the feast of firstfruits, but since there aren't any priests around to present my grain sheaves to, all I'd be doing is fudging it and following some man-made traditions.

Whereas I hold that the Law is impossible to follow in it's entirety, and I choose to adopt Jesus' attitude. From what I could see, His concern for the sanctity of the Sabbath ranked somewhere below His concern for the life of a donkey, but His stance about love, forgiveness, humility, empathy, justice and righteousness ranked as His primary concerns.

And quite honestly, I get the same vibe from you. Your path might not be one that I would willingly walk, but I think you're walking it well.
 
Thank you @Slumberfreeze

Slumberfreeze said:
2Behold I, Paul, say to you that if you receive circumcision, Christ will be of no benefit to you. 3And I testify again to every man who receives circumcision, that he is under obligation to keep the whole Law. 4You have been severed from Christ, you who are seeking to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace. 5For we through the Spirit, by faith, are waiting for the hope of righteousness. 6For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision means anything, but faith working through love
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After rereading Galatians and John, this is the opinion I have come to through my understanding and alot of prayer.


Moses therefore gave unto you circumcision; (not because it is of Moses, but of the fathers;) and ye on the sabbath day circumcise a man. If a man on the sabbath day receive circumcision, that the law of Moses should not be broken; are ye angry at me, because I have made a man every whit whole on the sabbath day? Judge not according to the appearance, but judge righteous judgment.
(John 7:22-24, King James Version)

It speaks against using the law to justify the seperation of All of God's people by appearance, as a means to acheive salvation, and using it to decide who is righteous in the eyes of God.

If you set your mind to the law as a means of salvation instead seeing it as a comandement on how to live expanded upon by Jesus. Then you become a slave to the Law and must follow it in whole and be Judge for failing to. If you set your mind to law as a way to emulate the only one who could uphold it in its whole. You become a slave to Jesus and fall under grace.

Luke 6:46

21 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. 22 Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness.

To me it's the difference between saying I love you and showing that I love you. Jesus lead by example, Why then would it be wrong to follow his example and try to live as closely to the way he did as possible.

I don't mean show in the sense of trying to earn salvation, which we all know is impossible.
 
I'm treading lightly here because there's been a lot of ruckus in the forums regarding Law / no-Law folks.
I know that teh Messianic/Hebrew roots forum is the place for general discussions for those who believe in keeping the Law today but I'm not sure where disagreements about that go...

Any way, regarding Galatians... delicious subject.
I have a great book called "The Irony of Galatians" by Mark Nanos. He's a Jewish guy who rocks in Greek.
His book "The Mystery of Romans" turned seminaries upside down. Nanos is renowned for demonstrating that Paul was the exact opposite of what people have traditionally thought.
In short the Irony of Galatians is that Paul uses letters of Greek style which were in vogue at the time.
There are special formats, like a boiler template today for letters of rebuke, exhortation, etc...
Galatians uses the pattern of an ironic letter / rebuke.
So many things which people have taken at face value in Galatians, is actually the precise opposite.
Paul is being ironic.

In general, the Law seems to me in our age for those who are bound to it, to be about holiness, not righteousness.
We are saved by grace so we are thankful. Our gratitude yields love & reverence, our love & reverence yield obedience as we understand it, and that obedience yields varying levels of holiness.
So in effect it is in deed His righteousness working out holiness within us via our gratitude for that righteousness.
It is our deeds (for many of us studying and living as best we can by His written Law and His new directions in the spirit) which is the evidence of our salvation. Chayah Emunah b'avodah! Faith with service is alive!

For those who love the Torah and are excited by this aspect of faith; I recommend the same approach the Rabbis take with baalei-teshuvah (returning Jews). One bit at a time; don't go overboard all at once.
First Sabbath .... do that for a while.... then holidays .... then other things can be added bit by bit as you are ready.
Clothing, diet bit by bit, etc...
 
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Kevin said:
Why then would it be wrong to follow his example and try to live as closely to the way he did as possible.
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For the same reason it would be wrong for me to honor God by eating vegetables only. Because I am fully convinced that I am to honor God by NOT paying any mind to feasts, diet, or clothing.

However, this does not mean that it would be wrong for you to do this. It would be wrong for you to ignore feasts and diet and clothing because you are fully (mostly?) convinced that you should honor God by observing them.
 
Slumberfreeze said:
For the same reason it would be wrong for me to honor God by eating vegetables only. Because I am fully convinced that I am to honor God by NOT paying any mind to feasts, diet, or clothing.

However, this does not mean that it would be wrong for you to do this. It would be wrong for you to ignore feasts and diet and clothing because you are fully (mostly?) convinced that you should honor God by observing them.
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I agree. It's about discerning what His Spirit has told each of us how to best submit and serve Him. For long time now he has been telling me there was something I was suppose to be doing but failing to do. I tried everything I could think of. I got involved in the church ,as so much i was allowed and kept silent, we were going to even though I didn't agree with 99% of what was going on. I started minimizing our household, I gave away most of what we had. None of that is what He wanted of me. He kept telling me there's something I'm suppose to do and haven't been doing. The more I study look to Torah, and have conversation like this one , it has become clear to me what I'm suppose to do but haven't been doing. It really started sinking in when I was having a conversation with @Verifyveritas76 about feast days and I'm about to rabbit trail. Look oh shiny.
 
@IshChayil and others here have helped me fill in the gaps without trying to. I'm very thankful for this Forum and everyone on it. It t ruely has been a blessing.
 
Verifyveritas76 said:
Cue Steve Erkle. Did I do thaaaaaat?
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Yeah, I know it wasn't your intention but I have a picture of how each of the feast days relate to Jesus on how honoring them honors him.
 
Props to everyone here for having a dignified and harmonious exchange of viewpoints. Feels like a fresh breeze just blew through here.... ;)
 
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