The politics of abstraction

[andrew]

I'd worry if someone agreed with me totally, I don't agree with the me of days past half the time. That is part of always growing and learning and iron sharpens iron. Echo chambers aren't conducive to learning truth.

Just wanted to have that said here again. Perhaps the biggest core strength of the core members and associates of Biblical Families. No one here is "the" authority, no one here gets it right every time, and no one who thinks he's right every time lasts very long. Just a bunch of men working out their salvation with fear and trembling trying to help each other along the Way, with a little humility and forbearance going a long way to keep the process robust and productive.

 

[andrew]

Multiethnic empires can survive and thrive.

Multicultural ones can't.

Second.

 

[Mojo]

Second.

Thanks.

If folks don't understand the distinction, let me explain.

Ethnicities are merely flavors within the pot of the same recipe. Each ethnic group adds something different. It's the variety in the spice of life. It can make a great gumbo!

Cultures are entirely different recipes and pots. There is no cohesion or common thought process.

Ethnicities can hold to their distinctions, but relinquish aspects of their culture in favor of a common cause. The early church was multiethnic, but adopted a common culture (The Way).

Those who insist on holding to their native culture within the broader ethic cannot coexist without strife. It's serving two masters. Inevitably one of those masters will begin to be hated. Guess which one?

Its a lazy Sunday afternoon. I hope I made sense.

 

[frederick]

The early church was multiethnic, but adopted a common culture (The Way).

An important explanation! Amen. Thanks.

 

[tdog]

Wow, we're going deep now.
I try to remember that the Bible says where we are is right on track as to where we are going.
I spoke to a secret service agent once when Gore ( I think- he was the ketchup guy right?) came thru town campaigning.
When I inquired of his preference he told me he wouldn't really walk across the street for any politician except he's paid to die for them. He reminded me that whoever wins will be gone in 4 yrs- sometimes 8.
Wait and see what Oprah does Har de Har.
"Just find a place to make your stand and take it easy"
Pray for our country and our leaders.
Especially the young soldiers who are fighting for us in countries that hate them, due to ideology, religion, our business interest or because of BS Twitter post.
I have two young ones coming up in years, it scares the hell out of me the thought of them in the big sandbox,
Trying to do what is right- not for oil and business.
The children in the middle of the stuff that's been going on for thousands of years.

 

[Grey]

Is that from What I Saw in America?

Utopia of Usurers I believe.

Multiethnic empires can survive and thrive.

For example?

The early church was multiethnic, but adopted a common culture

The early church was ready to schism over when to celebrate easter, not even the Greek and Latin Christians had a really common culture.

The church propers best when it doesn't seek to unify either ethnicities or cultures. It does not more or less than introduces different peoples to the Good news, and lets them celebrate it in their own

But if he succeeds to the level of his campaign promises and set up a political regime to continue and expand on that after his passing he'll be reckoned in history as a greater leader than Julius Caesar. For he will have done what Rome could not: turn back the clock on a decaying multiethnic empire.

Julius Caesar did just that, changing the republic into an empire gave it several more centuries of vitality and expansion.

Emperor Trump anyone?

 

[rockfox]

Multiethnic empires can survive and thrive.

Multicultural ones can't.

That is a distinction of no distinction. The empire may survive, but at the expense of her peoples. Culture is part of ethnicity. If you have a country with multiple ethnicities but one culture the individual nations will amalgamate and disappear into a new identity.

 

[Mojo]

For example?



The early church was ready to schism over when to celebrate easter, not even the Greek and Latin Christians had a really common culture.

The church propers best when it doesn't seek to unify either ethnicities or cultures. It does not more or less than introduces different peoples to the Good news, and lets them celebrate it in their own

The Persian, Roman, Egyptian, English and multiple empires became empires by conquering distant lands. These lands and peoples were all of differing races and ethnicities. The success of maintaining order and peace came from instituting a common culture, government, and language. As evidenced in scripture, Rome allowed the Jews and other ethnicities to practice their own ethnic traditions and languages, as long as they adopted certain civil practices, and did not usurp the Roman rule. In Africa, Jamaica, or India, you can still see the lasting cultural stamp of the English, but the ethnic traditions never really died, even when England ruled.

Pax Romana?
Hellenism?
The sun never setting on the British Empire?
I call that survive and thrive.

The squabbles of the differing ethnicities of the early gentile church had to be tempered by adopting a common BIBLICAL CULTURE. This was one of Paul's lasting contributions to the early church. The different traditions of the various Orthodox churches of the East are a lasting testament to unity of culture, while maintaining distinct ethnic variations. Coptic Christians vs Assyrian vs Armenian vs Greek, etc. all testify to a unity of certain Orthodox distinctives, but variations based on ethnic preferences.

I agree that isolating and segregating ethnicities within Christianity will eliminate a lot of strife, but the sin nature of man will never allow for a squabble free church. The ability for races and ethnicities to unify under the umbrella of Christ has been a lasting testament to the power of the Gospel.

I am not a member of the majority race or ethnicity in the United States. Would you refuse my membership in your fellowship so that I can celebrate it in my own way and not have to interrupt your culture?

 

[rockfox]

The squabbles of the differing ethnicities of the early gentile church had to be tempered by adopting a common BIBLICAL CULTURE. This was one of Paul's lasting contributions to the early church.

I'm not sure I'd credit Paul with that and I certainly don't think it good. This 'biblical culture' wasn't something established in the truth of the scriptures, but a mix of Greek and Hebrew thought; founded not in a the leading of the Holy Spirit but by men being unable to die to the cultural ideas of their world.

 

[Mojo]

I'm not sure I'd credit Paul with that and I certainly don't think it good. This 'biblical culture' wasn't something established in the truth of the scriptures, but a mix of Greek and Hebrew thought; founded not in a the leading of the Holy Spirit but by men being unable to die to the cultural ideas of their world.

I may be misunderstanding your point, but aren't the Corinthian epistles an example of Greco-Roman mindsets and mores being challenged by Paul? Doesn't he expound on a more Hebraic/biblical mindset when it comes to sexual issues?

Are you saying a biblical culture is Torah only?

 

[rockfox]

I may be misunderstanding your point, but aren't the Corinthian epistles an example of Greco-Roman mindsets and mores being challenged by Paul? Doesn't he expound on a more Hebraic/biblical mindset when it comes to sexual issues?

Are you saying a biblical culture is Torah only?

I think I misunderstood the intent in your statement; and you used 'early church' in the way I'd use 'first century church'.

When I think of 'the early church' and the culture it adopted I think more of 'the early chruch fathers' and 'christendom' and it has distinct differences from NT and OT thought. A lot of our problems today, in the ways the church has diverged from the Bible, date all the way back to the beginning when Greeks were brought into the fold and could not leave their Greek philosophies behind.

I do see Paul challenging Greco-Roman thought, and also Pharisaic Hebrew thought; both in the same way Christ did, pointing back to the foundational truths.

 

[Mojo]

And for more clarity:

I am using "ethnicity" in a way most would define culture in anthropology (unique traditions, foods, customs, etc.).

I am using "culture" in an organizational theory mindset (i.e. workplace culture).

In any organization (the Church included) you have individual components that have their own sets of values and motivations. They often keep those values/ motivations intact in their personal lives, but adopt the values, language, routines of the organization they belong to when they are active in that organization. We've all heard workplace lingo that is unique only to one department, or one floor. Some people adopt 'work wives' or 'work dad' in an attempt to normalize the relationships people have at work. When they go home, they take off one robe, and put on another {Imagine Mr. Rogers changing into his boat shoes and sweater. } and function in their home routines and vernacular.

Foreign ethnicities cannot coexist peacefully when they insist that their cultures be acknowledged as equal or superior to the host culture, or refuse to adhere to the majority of it. They must adapt to the broader culture in all civic and interpersonal interactions in public, but are free to practice other unique ethnic traditions in private. Some may have to be abandoned altogether, though (honor killings).

Ask any of us who did not belong to the majority racial group when growing up, or who had immigrant parents or grandparents. You had home life, and you had public life (school, work). There were private ethnic traditions and there were public cultural traditions. It was a double life at times.

The problem is that today's immigrants do not realize that the dysfunctional systems that they are leaving to come here are not systems (cultures) that will advance this nation. Adopting the American culture is the surest thing they can do to ensure their success in this country. If they don't like it......leave!

 

[andrew]

My grandparents were German immigrants, and I live in a community that up until the wars of the 20th century had German-language newspapers and church sermons preached in German. We have endeavored to preserve an appreciation of our German heritage and ethnicity, while fully integrating into the Anglo (English language, English legal traditions, etc) culture of the United States. @Mojo, I agree with you 100%.

 

[rockfox]

I am using "ethnicity" in a way most would define culture in anthropology (unique traditions, foods, customs, etc.).

Typically genetics are a part of ethnicity. It also takes into account culture. The two are irrevocably intertwined because culture serves as a fence around a community and they intermarry and become more like each other and less like everyone else.

We have endeavored to preserve an appreciation of our German heritage and ethnicity, while fully integrating into the Anglo (English language, English legal traditions, etc) culture of the United States.

There is something ironic here in that while they have lost their German ethnicity to a degree, becoming more Anglo, I've heard it commented they've also retained some of their traditions stronger than the origin peoples did (esp. around Octoberfest).

 

[Mojo]

Typically genetics are a part of ethnicity.

Hmm. Maybe in Greek etymology.

In modern application it gets sticky. In the U.S. census, or other types of surveys, Latino/Hispanic are divided into two categories. I can't remember the terminology, but black Hispanic and white Hispanics need to be differentiated from race because most blacks from the Caribbean (Dominican Republic, etc.) consider themselves to be Hispanic. They speak Spanish, play Spanish music, and eat Hispanic foods. Genetically, they may be different, but have the overwhelming majority of the customs similar to each other.

In American professional baseball, the number of players described as black is at an all time low since desegregation, but racial blacks are still a significant amount. The black Latin players aren't thrown into that mix because they aren't American born (ethnicity).

It's confusing.

 

[rockfox]

No one ever said life was simple or there weren't exceptions.

Within ethnography there are varying opinions and approaches, especially among the modern 'race is a social construct' crowd. However genetics is very often a part of it.

 

[rustywest4]

I agree with ya big time @Mojo!

 

[Mojo]

No one ever said life was simple or there weren't exceptions.

Within ethnography there are varying opinions and approaches, especially among the modern 'race is a social construct' crowd. However genetics is very often a part of it.

I'm not a proponent of the Rachel Dolezal (sp?) idea of racial identity.

In the realm of nature vs. nurture, I'm going to lean almost entirely on nurture when it comes to ethnicity. I've known too many native born Africans or Caribbean born blacks who have almost no connection to African AMERICAN culture.

 

[rockfox]

Nature vs. nurture is a never ending debate that is unlikely to be resolved in my lifetime.

For me, it is not either or but both and. There are feedback loops between the two. There are significant genetic effects on many things like personality, aggression, IQ, time preference (maybe?), and the like which manifest in significant cultural differences. However culture also exerts pressure on genetics by affecting mating choices and what gets passed on.

 

[Mojo]

Nature vs. nurture is a never ending debate that is unlikely to be resolved in my lifetime.

For me, it is not either or but both and. There are feedback loops between the two. There are significant genetic effects on many things like personality, aggression, IQ, time preference (maybe?), and the like which manifest in significant cultural differences. However culture also exerts pressure on genetics by affecting mating choices and what gets passed on.

Can't disagree. But it is imperfect.
In Gods economy, though, there seems to be only Jew/Gentile, sheep/goat, saved/lost.