Just calling it like I read it. From the meaning of his name,(which means the supplanter, manipulator, deceiver, cheater) to the character of his life until he becomes Israel (one who has wrestled with God)
Is it disrespectful to call it as men more wise than I have called it?
Is it not dishonest to try to whitewash the sins of the fathers in an effort to "honor" them.
Jacob was a deceiver and manipulator extraordinaire until the day that he wrestled with God and learned to let Him have his will done as HE sees fit. After that he began to have favor (power) with God and man without the manipulation that so marked his days till that point.
I find it very interesting how Hosea 12 compares Jacob with Ephraim. Even post-mortem, Hosea notes that YHWH will punish Jacob according to his ways and according to his doings (or works) will he recompense him. Hosea gives Ephraim a comparison that even though they have been like Jacob was, that if they will turn to the LORD that he will have mercy upon those who have held deceitful balances in their hand and who love to oppress or gain the upper hand.
Ephraim feedeth on wind, and followeth after the east wind: he daily increaseth lies and desolation; and they do make a covenant with the Assyrians, and oil is carried into Egypt.
The LORD hath also a controversy with Judah, and will punish Jacob according to his ways; according to his doings will he recompense him.
He took his brother by the heel in the womb, and by his strength he had power with God:
Yea, he had power over the angel, and prevailed: he wept, and made supplication unto him: he found him in Bethel, and there he spake with us;
Even the LORD God of hosts; the LORD is his memorial.
Therefore turn thou to thy God: keep mercy and judgment, and wait on thy God continually.
He is a merchant, the balances of deceit are in his hand: he loveth to oppress.
And Ephraim said, Yet I am become rich, I have found me out substance: in all my labours they shall find none iniquity in me that were sin.
I take no offense from anything in this thread, I think its been a great thread. I also agree that those who are polygyny minded are often allowed a higher level of understanding as they seek to follow truth. However, I am also aware that truth is no respecter of persons. Jacob is not excluded from the truth about his actions in Scripture nor are they whitewashed. Not so that we can use those facts to dishonor him, but as Solomon says, so that we, as wise men, may learn from even a . . . . ., well, an imperfect man. By doing anything less than aligning ourselves with evident, obvious truth, no matter where that leads, we destroy our own credibility and veracity and bring dishonor upon the one we claim to follow as well as any peripheral causes that we champion.
OK brother, you made some bold and frankly very very erroneous claims about the Hebrew name of Jacob.
First let me share that when I read Genesis, I only read it in the original Hebrew language without a dictionary. Not an interlinear, or parallel, or anything but the original recipe. I don't need to stop and think about the meanings of the words, I just read and understand.
I’m not saying this to beat on my chest, but just so you can see where I’m coming from and how it shocks me to see these claims about this word.
I'm not sitting at a desk with a lamp on an some dictionary from the 1800's trying to find connections for names.
So allow me please to address each of the meanings you ascribed to the name יעקב Yaakov (Jacob).
You wrote:
“Just calling it like I read it. From the meaning of his name,(which means the
supplanter,
manipulator,
deceiver,
cheater) to the character of his life until he becomes Israel (one who has wrestled with God)”
I’ll now address each of these meanings you ascribed to this word Yaakov.
- Supplant-obsolete word in English so I’m forced to go to the dictionary where I like what I see ”to take the place of and serve as a substitute for especially by reason of superior excellence or power”
- Manipulator-wrong, no lexicon makes this claim. Maybe you are using strongs or some other errant, ancient pseudo-lexicon? Strongs is just absolutely horrid and it’s a crime it’s still sold at all. If it didn't have the name of G-d in it I'd recommend you burn it for firewood.
- Deceiver -where in the world are you seeing this as a definition for Jacob? There is another word עקב Akove which means a path in the ground with the idea that you can be tricked by a false path. Is that where you got this? I'll explain bellow the error of such methods.
- Cheater - I cracked open my 4-volume HALOT lexicon (and for sure cheater is nowhere in that bad boy, neither are the other definitions you listed). HALOT (Baumgarner) is a modern scholarly Hebrew dictionary that makes use of modern scholarship in the area of Ugaritic (a Canannite language similar to Hebrew).
Here are some meanings your strongs or outdated BDB probably didn’t tell you related to our father Jacob’s name:
Eykev -
reward (as he was a reward to his father Yitschak for living a good life)
Akov -
steep,hilly (not so useful here but just to be thorough) So maybe He was tall? lol
Akav -
follow (maybe because he followed the first one)-this seems the most reasonable
The scholarship in Strongs concordance is just horrendous. I can’t speak to the Greek but I as a student of Greek I can say that no Greek student ever references STRONGS for that either, usually if they are using an antiquated resource it’s Thayer which has some credibility.
Look I’m not “
over reaching” here when I tell you “deceiver”, "cheater", "Manipulator" are absolutely not part of that name, implied or otherwise.
It means
heel,
follow, trace steps or reach, because he quite literally was holding his brother’s ankle.
EVIL BABY! So his parents called it like they saw it. “
Ankle grabber”. It’s like calling someone “Reddy” because he was born reddish. We don’t later say LOOK he is a murderer because of bloody color at birth.
About
Hebrew Roots (linguistic not the movement):
You have to be very careful with your etymologies. Just because you find some negative word that derives from a root used in a name; you need to realize Hebrew is not English and there is a LOT of antisemitic baggage in church tradition.
Let me give you an example. We are told that Yeshua is
the word correct?
At least by John that the LOGOS (word) came and pitched His tent among us, became flesh etc.
OK well
word in hebrew is
דבר DaVaR. But the exact same root also means pestilence
דבר DeVeR.
So can we then say that Yeshua had some attribute of pestilence because the root word means that?
שלום Shalom means peace but the same root means avenge
שלם (SHiLeM) in some contexts.
So true peace only comes by revenge? See how dangerous it is to apply English-style comparisons with Hebrew?
I've used these examples to show the absurdity of attributing to our father Yaakov the concepts of "deceiver" and such even if there were some other word with the same
root with that meaning.
My point is, you can’t just play fast and loose with word roots in this language, and you certainly can’t impugn someone’s character because another word that has the same root has some negative meaning. In all fairness, when we do that, we’re “
over-reaching”
(couldn’t help myself)
So I implore you to look at the life of the man.
The only example anyone has been able to give me is a 1 time deal where mommy put the lad up to it. So you label him “deceiver” for that? Wow imagine in our own lives if this standard is applied.
Joleneakamama and ZecAustin have already addressed this incident with mommy so I won't elaborate more.
I also find it appalling that the tone from someone earlier was to side with Laban over Jacob like Laban was the one ripped off. Now I say this next part in love guys. Is it possible, that you’ve inherited some antisemitic positions from the Gentile church?
This doesn’t impugn your character, just the sources of some of these traditional views. People liked to make Jacob out to be a “bad guy” because he’s the father of the Jews.
You wrote: “Jacob was a
deceiver and
manipulator extraordinaire…” wow.
Yet the only examples you guys listed were his 1 incident with his father where he was coerced by his mother (hardly an extraordinaire when
he did zero of the planning in this 1 time event), and in his dealings with the pagan, idolater, liar, wife-swapping, evil Laban.
I say your sources’ traditions are the traditions of men; men who were Jew-haters because there is no way else someone could derive such a conclusion from a plain reading of the biblical text.
We don’t pray to our fathers so let’s stop with the undeserved hyperbole saying Jews are worshiping our ancestors. There is so much ignorance in Gentile Christianity when it comes to Judaism and when I hear this nonsense and pseudo-scholarship repeated it makes me sick.
My post is long enough so I don't think I'll tackle your Hosea reference which is about all of Israel anyway (Ephrayim descendant of Jacob etc).
After we close the lid on bad etymologies we can move on to deal with that if it's really important to you. For now I don't want to get distracted.
I really hope we can come to accord in this. I value your comments and I'm sure in many areas you have much more wisdom and knowledge than I do. I just think in this one small area there is something for you to learn here.
Peace and love to you all
