Discussion in 'Links of Interest' started by Shibboleth, Oct 4, 2017.
That's my take each time I read the scriptures about Adam and Eve.
Basically, before the fall we have a righteous man leading a righteous woman.
After the fall we have an unrighteous man leading an unrightous woman. With all of the problems that that entails.
I wish more saw it that way.
I believe that some of the roots of feminism were legitimately promoted by how women have been treated over the untruth that she did it all on her own and Adam was the victim.
Which verse does that come from?
Were they righteous before the fall? They were good, as in a good creation. But not having the knowledge of good and evil can we fairly say they were righteous?
But I can say this with some certainty about the creation story: woman is rebellious and envious while man is weak and appeasing. Before AND after the fall.
3947 [e] wat-tiq-qaḥ וַתִּקַּ֥ח and she took Verb
6529 [e] mip-pir-yōw מִפִּרְי֖וֹ from its fruit Noun
398 [e] wat-tō-ḵal; וַתֹּאכַ֑ל and did eat Verb
5414 [e] wat-tit-tên וַתִּתֵּ֧ן and gave Verb
1571 [e] gam- גַּם־ also Adv
582 [e] lə-’î-šāh לְאִישָׁ֛הּ to the man Noun
5973 [e] ‘im-māh עִמָּ֖הּ with her Prep
398 [e] way-yō-ḵal. וַיֹּאכַֽל׃ and he did eat Verb
Before the fruit there was no actions that would state anything other than only pure submission. Here's a question if Adam was not righteous would G-d have physicaly walked with him?
“Though these three men, Noah, Daniel, and Job, were in it, they should deliver but their own souls by their righteousness, saith the L-rd G-D”
"Though these three anashim—Noach, Daniel, and Iyov—were in it, they would deliver but their own nefesh by their tzedakah, saith Adonoi Hashem."
The prophet Ezekiel cited three examples of the most righteous men in all human history, all sinners. All men who submitted to the L-rd.
G-d's people are righteous when they are in a right relation with him, when they are considered by G-d, as the Judge of the world, as righteous when they are being and doing what he requires in HIS covenant. That is what Adam doing was before the fruit.
Thanks @Kevin - for as long as I can remember, I've always read Gen 3:6 as subsequent incidents, splitting here:
Gen 3:6 And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat,
and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat.
(Even based on that, I don't think I have or could even imagine any different conclusions from the ones that have already been drawn.)
I see G-d instructing Adam ( 2:16-17 is before the creation of Eve 2:18-25 and they seem to have separate identities in the whole of ch 2). If so, it would be Adam's responsibility to instruct Eve, (so that's where I've particularly put his failure).
If the serpent, being noted for its subtlety, attacked at the weakest point, it would have made sure Adam wasn't around at the time.
From a quick look at the next few occurrences of 1571 [e] gam- גַּם־ it seems it can describe events that are in sequence as well as events that happen at the same time?
I've got another question on the Hebrew in Gen 2 if you're up for it...
I'm up for it. There are a guys here better with Hebrew than I am but I don't mind putting in the work.
That's my understanding.
I was also trying to transfer over translations from My Sword Bible and Hebrew Bible Concordance but my tablet is acting up. What I posted lines up with all my text books anyway.
Their righteousness was untested righteousness until the serpent challenged Eve. There always seems to be a test:
for Israel: Deu 8:2 And thou shalt remember all the way which the LORD thy God led thee these forty years in the wilderness, to humble thee, and to prove thee, to know what was in thine heart, whether thou wouldest keep his commandments, or no.
even for Christ: Heb 4:15 For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.
Thank you very much. I can assure you your Hebrew is a lot better than mine I'l put it up later in a separate thread. It actually raises several questions, (only one is on the Hebrew) and I want to think about how I should frame it.
@Kevin answered, and I agree, Adam was there with her, but even if he wasn't, I think this verse would have applied:
If a woman also vow a vow unto the Lord , and bind herself by a bond, being in her father's house in her youth; And if she had at all an husband, when she vowed, or uttered ought out of her lips, wherewith she bound her soul; And her husband heard it, and held his peace at her in the day that he heard it: then her vows shall stand, and her bonds wherewith she bound her soul shall stand. Num. 30:6-7
The ultimate point on which we agree is that Adam did not protect and cover her by taking responsibility.
BTW, good discussion. Enjoying it.
I have never heard of this and would love to find out more about it. Do you by chance remember where you heard or saw this?
@Littles I don't remember where I heard that, and have yet to find confirmation that it's even true. I did find this article, but it is only talking about something imagined.
I'll keep looking, but I might aught to just edit my comment to reflect the lack of evidence.
AKA: how to sleep around and have girlfriends you're shagging for a while while calling it 'marriage'.
Good answers to my question, thanks.
I recall that the Nevada thing was merely a proposition, not enacted into law yet. But I could be wrong.
My impression from the text is that Adam was there and it all happened at once, but thats just an impression. But I see no reason why the serpent couldn't have made his appeal to her while he was present. Adam was weak enough to not reject the fruit, so it is in character that he couldn't end the conversation and take her out of the situation. Few men have the balls to do that today either with ungodly influences in their families lives.
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