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Thinking about a passage in Romans 7

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Bartato

Seasoned Member
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I wonder if anyone might be able to explain to me what you understand Romans 7:4 to be saying.

You all know that I don't consider myself part of the Hebrew Roots / Torah Observance emphasis movement.

I am however sincerely trying to understand your viewpoint, and consider it's merits. I wonder if you might be able to help me.

I'm not trying to pick a fight. I am seeking to better understand God's written Word.

I know for certain that some of you guys are extremely intelligent, and are very knowledgeable about the Bible.

Here is the passage I am looking at. I'm sure you are familiar with it, and have considered how to best understand it. I hope you might help shed some light for me.

"Therefore, my brethren, you also were made to die to the Law through the body of Christ, so that you might be joined to another, to Him who was raised from the dead, in order that we might bear fruit for God." (NASB)

Here is a little more context, and a different translation.

"Or do you not know, brethren (for I speak to those who know the law), that the law has dominion over a man as long as he lives? For the woman who has a husband is bound by the law to her husband as long as he lives. But if the husband dies, she is released from the law of her husband. So then if, while her husband lives, she marries another man, she will be called an adulteress; but if her husband dies, she is free from that law, so that she is no adulteress, though she has married another man. Therefore, my brethren, you also have become dead to the law through the body of Christ, that you may be married to another—to Him who was raised from the dead, that we should bear fruit to God. " (NKJV)

We know that Romans 7 isn't undermining, or discrediting the law. As Christ taught us in Matthew 5, not a jot or tittle of God's instructions will disappear. Christ came to fulfill the law, not to abolish it.

Christ, the Son, the incarnate Logos of God, is not going to contradict God the Father. Likewise, I believe Paul was a faithful servant of Christ, and was operating under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit. He won't contradict the instructions of God either.

It seems to me that the law referenced here is probably the covenant of YAHWEH received at Sinai and mediated by Moses. Perhaps it is more than that.

I've heard some people suggest that the "law" referred to "the traditions of the elders", not the actual law of instructions given by God.

The thing is that Paul compares the situation with marriage. When a woman is bound to a man by the law of marriage, we have a real God given law which restricts her, not merely the traditions of men.

The marriage bond is broken when either party dies. The law of marriage is permanent (it won't pass away), but the particular bond of one couple is ended at death. The law of marriage is good and right, but the widow is no longer bound by it to her deceased husband.

She is not totally free from the law of marriage. She cannot just run around having sexual relations with whatever men strike her fancy, but she is freed from the bond with the first husband, and is free to marry another.

Romans 7 is telling us that something dramatic has changed in the way we relate to God. Somehow, the particular bond has been ended by the death of Christ. Christ died, and we have also died in His death.

Covenants always have a covenant head, and a covenantal follower.

YAHWEH is Head of Israel and Judah. God the Father is the Head of Christ. Christ is the Head of the Church. Christ is the Head of every man. The husband is the head of the wife.

Paul seems to be saying that the Covenant Head of the Sinai Bond is YAHWEH, and that the Covenant Head has died in the death of Christ (because Christ somehow is YAHWEH). Therefore that particular union has ended. Now, the believer in Christ is free to be joined to Another Covenant Head. This Covenant Head is the resurrected Lord Jesus/Yeshua, the Christ.

The believer is not free to run wild, and do whatever he wants, gratifying the flesh. The believer is free to serve the risen Christ, and belong to Him. The believer is now ruled over by the Risen Christ, not his own sinful cravings, and not the law either.

Please understand, I'm not saying that we don't obey the Torah. After all, the Torah came from God.

In fact, I am inclined to think that the Second Person of the Trinity is most likely the One who met with Moses on Mount Sinai, and carved the instructions into the stone tablets with His own Finger. If this is right, the Son gave Israel the Torah.

How now then does Christ want us to live? We should listen to what He taught us during His earthly ministry. We should also listen to the instructions given by His faithful servants, the apostles in the rest of the New Testament. We must certainly also look to the Law and the Prophets. We should probably look first and foremost to the Torah, as that is where the basic original instructions from God are found.

Nonetheless, a dramatic change of leadership has happened. We were somehow under the law (which is from God, probably from the Son specifically). We have now died to the law, and been united to Another, to the Risen Christ.

We are always going to be under some type of dominion. The law has a dominion. Sin and lawlessness has a dominion. Christ the Risen Son of God has a dominion. The union that will bear good fruit to God is the one with the risen Christ.

Does this sound right? Am I missing something?
 
I think this would be better held as a private message discussion. Add whomever you think would add to the discussion you’re looking to have and that way it doesn’t detract or cause public dissent.
 
I'm happy for it to be here, what I don't want is people lecturing others on their viewpoints on this matter all over the forum. I have no problem with people asking questions they genuinely want answers to, and people giving them answers. If it goes beyond that I can easily shut it down.
 
Best of luck Bartato!
 
Bartato said:
I've heard some people suggest that the "law" referred to "the traditions of the elders", not the actual law of instructions given by God.
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That would be me, among others. (Mark 7, Matthew 23)

The word 'nomos' in Greek conflates both meanings. since BOTH the 'torah [instruction] of YHVH' and the 'traditions of men,' are rendered as 'nomos.'

It's in here four times, arguably conflated.

Or do you not know, brethren (for I speak to those who know the law), that the law has dominion over a man as long as he lives? For the woman who has a husband is bound by the law to her husband as long as he lives. But if the husband dies, she is released from the law of her husband.

And the last of those arguably means her husband's instruction. (or, 'halacha', in this case.)
Bartato said:
The thing is that Paul compares the situation with marriage. When a woman is bound to a man by the law of marriage, we have a real God given law which restricts her, not merely the traditions of men.
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But it is, in fact (certainly in AmeriKa, via a license) BOTH.
Bartato said:
Nonetheless, a dramatic change of leadership has happened. We were somehow under the law (which is from God, probably from the Son specifically). We have now died to the law, and been united to Another, to the Risen Christ.
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There is another, no less valid reading. And it follows from "choose this day Whom you will serve," with the reminder that you cannot "serve two masters."

When we die to the 'nomos' of mere men, and choose to no longer serve a Caesar whose image and inscription is now on truly fake 'not-money', in a system of commercial (commerce) bondage, we can and should choose to be "bondservants to the Most High."
 
PS> In America, sans the 'k', we have an entirely additional understanding, in that there are at least TWO, parallel, kinds of "Law", of men - one in accord with that of YHVH, another the prince of this world.

The "law of the land," vs "law of the sea," aka, law of the city, Roman civil law, and 'private law' -- as opposed to what we were once supposed to have, from the Declaration of Independence, protected by a "government instituted among men," to "secure those Rights," which were unanimously agreed to come from Him.

I believe the Founders understand that distinction in the terminology, "consent of the governed." The choice, guaranteed in Deuteronomy 30:15 and 19, is between life and death, blessing and cursing.
 
In relation to Romans 7:4 (died to the law):

Romans 6:23
For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life through Christ Jesus our Lord.

The curse of the law is death. Especially rebellion and intentional sin. Ephesians 2:1-3 goes into more detail:

1 Once you were dead because of your disobedience and your many sins. 2 You used to live in sin, just like the rest of the world, obeying the devil—the commander of the powers in the unseen world. He is the spirit at work in the hearts of those who refuse to obey God. 3 All of us used to live that way, following the passionate desires and inclinations of our sinful nature. By our very nature we were subject to God’s anger, just like everyone else.

The Messiah - who came as the Most High in the Flesh - paid that curse of the law for you. Through his bloodshed we have forgiveness of sins, and we can escape that judgement.
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You then have a choice of life or death:

Romans 6:15
15 Well then, since God’s grace has set us free from the law, does that mean we can go on sinning? Of course not! 16 Don’t you realize that you become the slave of whatever you choose to obey? You can be a slave to sin, which leads to death, or you can choose to obey God, which leads to righteous living. 17 Thank God! Once you were slaves of sin, but now you wholeheartedly obey this teaching we have given you. 18 Now you are free from your slavery to sin, and you have become slaves to righteous living.

We've been set free from the curse of the law (death penalty) through the Lamb of the Most High (John 1:29). Both Paul and John testify that sin = transgression of the law. Yahushua the Messiah - who was the Heavenly Father in the flesh - didn't suffer and die for our lawlessness - so we can go back to living lawlessness. And 2 Timothy 3:16 instructs that the entire Old Testament (All Scripture) is profitable for correction, rebuke, and training in righteousness. Along with Romans 3:31 - We uphold the law through faith. And also Isaiah 8:20 and Isaiah 51:7. The Creator makes us Holy himself through His sanctification process - by the washing of water through his Word (Ephesians 5:26). Those that love and have faith in the Messiah - believe it was our own sin that caused his suffering - so we no longer wish to practice sin - but instead wishing to do his will. Submitting to His ways and not conforming to the ways of the world (Romans 12:2). And those that do submit to the Father in Heaven - he said it through the Son - "If the world hates you - know it hated me first." John 15:18.

Another way to describe it is like this - marrying an ex-prostitute. She's extremely grateful and loving - being washed clean and having a husband and a chance to turn her life around. You're going to wash her clean spiritually as well - with the Word - it's your house - your rules. She has a choice now. She can either leave her life of sin behind (died to the law of sin and death) - or live righteously as your wife - submitting to your will. If she goes back to practicing sin - well you can read Hebrews 10:26 or 2 Peter 20.
 
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Bartato said:
In fact, I am inclined to think that the Second Person of the Trinity is most likely the One who met with Moses on Mount Sinai, and carved the instructions into the stone tablets with His own Finger. If this is right, the Son gave Israel the Torah.
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I also believe the Son can be found throughout the Old Testament. He was the one that appeared to Moses in the burning bush. That wrestled with Jacob. The one that spoke with Abraham's 2nd wife - Hagar. Among other places. And in the Gospel of John - we receive confirmation - that the Messiah is the Word (Torah) made flesh. And He said - Before Abraham was - I AM. He lived out the Torah, and he rebuked those that were adding and taking away from His Torah (law/instructions); and He (Christ) even said we're to keep the law of Moses in Matthew 23:1-3 (keeping the law of Moses of course means - not adding or taking away from it). And he said blessed are those that do the law in Luke 11:28. James also confirms this in James 1:25:

But if you look carefully into the perfect law that sets you free, and if you do what it says and don’t forget what you heard, then God will bless you for doing it.

If something is perfect (Psalms 19:7 says that the law is perfect) - it doesn't need additions or reductions. Actually - adding or taking away from Torah is considered to be sin. It was a sinful problem in the 1st century. It's a far bigger problem today.

When Paul instructed believers in the faith to refrain from marriage and buying property in 1st Corinthians - he did so as his own personal recommendation, because of the troubles and persecutions they will likely face. He wasn't making a new law or commandment. But he makes it clear this is his own recommendation (for that period of time). He goes back to the Torah in 1 Corinthians 7:28:

But if you do get married, it is not a sin. And if a young woman gets married, it is not a sin. However, those who get married at this time will have troubles, and I am trying to spare you those problems.

The notion that the law has been done away with makes zero sense considering all the apostles kept quoting and teaching from it:

1 Corinthians 14:34
Women should be silent during the church meetings. It is not proper for them to speak. They should be submissive, just as the law says.
 
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Earth_is- said:
In relation to Romans 7:4 (died to the law):

Romans 6:23
For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life through Christ Jesus our Lord.

The curse of the law is death. Especially rebellion and intentional sin. Ephesians 2:1-3 goes into more detail:

1 Once you were dead because of your disobedience and your many sins. 2 You used to live in sin, just like the rest of the world, obeying the devil—the commander of the powers in the unseen world. He is the spirit at work in the hearts of those who refuse to obey God. 3 All of us used to live that way, following the passionate desires and inclinations of our sinful nature. By our very nature we were subject to God’s anger, just like everyone else.

The Messiah - who came as the Most High in the Flesh - paid that curse of the law for you. Through his bloodshed we have forgiveness of sins, and we can escape that judgement.
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You then have a choice of life or death:

Romans 6:15
15 Well then, since God’s grace has set us free from the law, does that mean we can go on sinning? Of course not! 16 Don’t you realize that you become the slave of whatever you choose to obey? You can be a slave to sin, which leads to death, or you can choose to obey God, which leads to righteous living. 17 Thank God! Once you were slaves of sin, but now you wholeheartedly obey this teaching we have given you. 18 Now you are free from your slavery to sin, and you have become slaves to righteous living.

We've been set free from the curse of the law (death penalty) through the Lamb of the Most High (John 1:29). Both Paul and John testify that sin = transgression of the law. Yahushua the Messiah - who was the Heavenly Father in the flesh - didn't suffer and die for our lawlessness - so we can go back to living lawlessness. And 2 Timothy 3:16 instructs that the entire Old Testament (All Scripture) is profitable for correction, rebuke, and training in righteousness. Along with Romans 3:31 - We uphold the law through faith. And also Isaiah 8:20 and Isaiah 51:7. The Creator makes us Holy himself through His sanctification process - by the washing of water through his Word (Ephesians 5:26). Those that love and have faith in the Messiah - believe it was our own sin that caused his suffering - so we no longer wish to practice sin - but instead wishing to do his will. Submitting to His ways and not conforming to the ways of the world (Romans 12:2). And those that do submit to the Father in Heaven - he said it through the Son - "If the world hates you - know it hated me first." John 15:18.

Another way to describe it is like this - marrying an ex-prostitute. She's extremely grateful and loving - being washed clean and having a husband and a chance to turn her life around. You're going to wash her clean spiritually as well - with the Word - it's your house - your rules. She has a choice now. She can either leave her life of sin behind (died to the law of sin and death) - or live righteously as your wife - submitting to your will. If she goes back to practicing sin - well you can read Hebrews 10:26 or 2 Peter 20.
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Thank you @Earth_is-

So would it be fair to say that we have died to the law in the sense that we have been reconciled with, and accepted by God based on the Person and saving work (sinless life, substitutionary death, bodily resurrection, and ascension) of Jesus Christ?

Now, having been reconciled with God in Christ, we belong to Him, and as obedient children will learn obey God's teaching, which is primarily found in the Torah.

We "died" in the sense thar Christ is the Foundation of our relationship with God. Christ the Man, is the Way to the Father (rather than obeying the instructions found in Torah).

We did not die to the law in the sense that we are still instructed to listen to, and carefully obey the instructions of the Torah.

Does that sound reasonable?
 
Mark C said:
That would be me, among others. (Mark 7, Matthew 23)

The word 'nomos' in Greek conflates both meanings. since BOTH the 'torah [instruction] of YHVH' and the 'traditions of men,' are rendered as 'nomos.'

It's in here four times, arguably conflated.

Or do you not know, brethren (for I speak to those who know the law), that the law has dominion over a man as long as he lives? For the woman who has a husband is bound by the law to her husband as long as he lives. But if the husband dies, she is released from the law of her husband.

And the last of those arguably means her husband's instruction. (or, 'halacha', in this case.)

But it is, in fact (certainly in AmeriKa, via a license) BOTH.

There is another, no less valid reading. And it follows from "choose this day Whom you will serve," with the reminder that you cannot "serve two masters."

When we die to the 'nomos' of mere men, and choose to no longer serve a Caesar whose image and inscription is now on truly fake 'not-money', in a system of commercial (commerce) bondage, we can and should choose to be "bondservants to the Most High."
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Thank you @MarkC,
I realize that "nomos" can refer to both divine law, and human law. It seems to me that here in Romans 7, it isn't merely referring to man made law.

It seems pretty likely that there is also some sense in which we have become disconnected from one covenant relationship (probably the Sinai covenant) via death, and have entered a second and different one with the God Man in the Flesh.

This is different from the question of whether we should obey the instructions given in Torah. I think it is quite reasonable to say that we should obey Torah, because we belong to Christ, who gave us Torah.

"God, who at various times and in various ways spoke in time past to the fathers by the prophets, has in these last days spoken to us by His Son, whom He has appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the worlds;" (Hebrews 1:1-2 NKJV)

The Torah, the prophets, and the Logos all have the same Source.

Those who continue to despise God's instructions, and live to gratify the flesh, never been united to Christ. They have neither seen Him or known Him. They have chosen to serve the world, the flesh, and the devil, and chosen to reject the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ.
 
Bartato said:
We did not die to the law in the sense that we are still instructed to listen to, and carefully obey the instructions of the Torah.

Does that sound reasonable?
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Generally, yes, to most of the above.

I'm not enamored of translating 'torah' as 'law', as you know...and the reason is hopefully clear in that last sentence.

We don't "die to His instruction" in the sense that instruction is simply that. It's for our blessing. And it might be ABOUT how He made things to work.


Think about a man who dies. His dead body still obeys the "LAW of Gravity" - it falls over. As to the 'nomos' of mere men, and their traditions, he's pretty well beyond that.



And - separately - the second point I made regarding what is called, in legalese, "choice of law," it applies in the realm of "jurisdiction."

Who is our Master? Who do we serve? When we "die to the 'law' of mere men, then what?
 
Bartato said:
Thank you @Earth_is-

So would it be fair to say that we have died to the law in the sense that we have been reconciled with, and accepted by God based on the Person and saving work (sinless life, substitutionary death, bodily resurrection, and ascension) of Jesus Christ?

Now, having been reconciled with God in Christ, we belong to Him, and as obedient children will learn obey God's teaching, which is primarily found in the Torah.

We "died" in the sense thar Christ is the Foundation of our relationship with God. Christ the Man, is the Way to the Father (rather than obeying the instructions found in Torah).

We did not die to the law in the sense that we are still instructed to listen to, and carefully obey the instructions of the Torah.

Does that sound reasonable?
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Yes - I agree. And here’s some more scripture to back it up:

Romans 8:7-9

7 For the sinful nature is always hostile to God. It never did obey God’s laws, and it never will. 8 That’s why those who are still under the control of their sinful nature can never please God.9 But you are not controlled by your sinful nature. You are controlled by the Spirit if you have the Spirit of God living in you. (And remember that those who do not have the Spirit of Christ living in them do not belong to him at all.)

Romans 7:12
So then, the law is holy, and the commandment is holy, righteous, and good.

This doesn't mean that the law has been changed. Or that there are two laws - one for the Gentile believers, and one for Jewish believers. But to the contrary - we're all united together with Christ as the Head -- Galatians 3:28.

Such a thing would violate the Scripture, and the Messiah’s own words in Matthew 5:18 and Luke 16:17:

Luke 16:17
But even the smallest part of a letter in the law cannot be changed. It would be easier for heaven and earth to pass away.

Here’s the other Scripture:

Psalm 119:160
The sum of your word is truth, and every one of your righteous rules endures forever.

Psalm 19:7
The Law of the LORD is perfect, reviving the soul; the testimony of the LORD is trustworthy, making wise the simple.

If something is already perfect - it doesn’t need changes. It's a popular notion that the Father in Heaven simply "allowed" or "turned a blind eye" to things they dis-agree with like polygyny. But that's not what the Word says.

Yes - there is no temple, but our Messiah is our sacrificial Lamb and our sin offering. Remember there also wasn’t a temple in Daniel’s time when the people were exiled in Babylon. It was similarly destroyed. Did Daniel the prophet preach that the law was done away with, because there was no temple? One last thing I want to add - whomever wrote the book of Hebrews - in Hebrews 10:16 - the author quoted Jeremiah 31:33 - and it literally says that in the New Covenant the Torah is written in your heart. Check the Hebrew word for "law" in Jeremiah 31:33. It says Torah. And this quote from Jeremiah is found in the New Testament - Hebrews 10:16.
 
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Proverbs 28:9 -
"One who turns his ear away from hearing the law [the Hebrew word is 'torah'] -
even his prayer is an abomination."
 
Read Acts 15 again. It is a set of MINIMUM necessary starting conditions, not an endpoint. After all, Moses (ie, His Torah) is taught in "every synagogue," in every city, every Sabbath. And you can't understand Galatians without recognizing that Paul was a consummate Torah scholar, who knew what His Messiah meant in Matthew 5:17-19. He NEVER called Him a liar.
 
MarkH said:
I would say that you have to have a solid grasp upon Galatians in order to understand Romans. Galatians connects with Acts 15:22-29 to address what laws the gentile Christians are to follow.
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Look at the language used in Acts 15:19-21:

And so my judgment is that we should not make it difficult for the Gentiles who are turning to God. 20 Instead, we should write and tell them to abstain from eating food offered to idols, from sexual immorality, from eating the meat of strangled animals, and from consuming blood. 21 For these laws of Moses have been preached in Jewish synagogues in every city on every Sabbath for many generations.”

Obviously, these are not the only things that are preached every sabbath. My question is why were those specific laws preached on every sabbath during that time?

1 Corinthians 10:7-8 GNT

Nor to worship idols, as some of them did. As the scripture says, “The people sat down to a feast which turned into an orgy of drinking and sex.” 8 We must not be guilty of sexual immorality, as some of them were—and in one day twenty-three thousand of them fell dead.

Worshipping false gods can sometimes include things like sexual immorality, bowing down to idols, and perhaps some type of blood drinking. We can read about that in the Old Testament - in Numbers 25 - when some of the Israelites that left Egypt were tempted by prostitutes from foreign nations to bow down to their idols, and worship their gods.

Those requirements in Acts 15 - would mean that the converting gentiles (who may of been involved in similar practices) - can not go back to their old pagan ways of worship, or pagan temples.

It also seems to me that the council was against placing too much of a heavy burden on them - for they were just starting to repent from their sinful ways. Paul mentioned this too - “You’re still on milk. You’re not ready for meat yet.” You have to crawl before you can walk. And walk before you can run. Same thing spiritually.

We are to rightly divide the Word. Certainly Acts 15 isn’t saying that the 10 commandments no longer apply, right? Things like coveting, murder, sabbath keeping, and honoring mother and father.
 
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Acts 15 is interpreted by both sides of this debate in opposing ways, and both see their explanation as self-evident. One side says "see, we don't have to follow Torah, it's there in black and white - we're even told Moses had been preached every sabbath forever yet it hasn't been effective in establishing God's kingdom so we now have a better way". And the other says "this is just a set of minimum starting conditions, of course we still have to follow the rest also, we're specifically told that Moses is preached every sabbath so everyone should know that also". Both cite the exact same passage and think it proves opposite points. In other words, both sides interpret it according to their presuppositions, reading their pre-existing opinion into the text, while genuinely believing that they are just reading the text and believing what it says in plain language. Both are doing eisegesis, while both genuinely believe they are doing exegesis and will be highly offended by any suggestion that they are not.

Incidentally dear reader, this is me demonstrating how to most efficiently offend everybody. If you want to have no friends, watch and learn from the master! :)
 
FollowingHim said:
Acts 15 is interpreted by both sides of this debate in opposing ways, and both see their explanation as self-evident. One side says "see, we don't have to follow Torah, it's there in black and white - we're even told Moses had been preached every sabbath forever yet it hasn't been effective in establishing God's kingdom so we now have a better way". And the other says "this is just a set of minimum starting conditions, of course we still have to follow the rest also, we're specifically told that Moses is preached every sabbath so everyone should know that also". Both cite the exact same passage and think it proves opposite points. In other words, both sides interpret it according to their presuppositions, reading their pre-existing opinion into the text, while genuinely believing that they are just reading the text and believing what it says in plain language. Both are doing eisegesis, while both genuinely believe they are doing exegesis and will be highly offended by any suggestion that they are not.

Incidentally dear reader, this is me demonstrating how to most efficiently offend everybody. If you want to have no friends, watch and learn from the master! :)
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I have been efficiently offended!

But let's remain logically consistent then:

20 But that we write unto them, that they abstain from pollutions of idols, and from fornication, and from things strangled, and from blood.

28 For it seemed good to the Holy Ghost, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things;
29 That ye abstain from meats offered to idols, and from blood, and from things strangled, and from fornication: from which if ye keep yourselves, ye shall do well. Fare ye well.

So, everything else is A-OK!
 
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