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Tidying up the FAQs

FollowingHim

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The Frequently Asked Questions sections on this website, in my opinion, are long overdue for a thorough overhaul. Some of the posts are excellent, others are probably not needed. And it fills up far too much space at the top of the main page of the forum, meaning you have to scroll down past it before you can discuss anything.

I would like to tidy these up as we find the time, to make sure that
- all questions that really are asked frequently are answered there
- every answer is robust
- no issue that is rarely asked is mentioned there.
- and they take up far less space

So, what are the "frequently asked questions" that should be answered in the FAQ section? What were the most burning questions you had when you first found this forum? Are they already answered well there, or does a new post need to be written?

All suggestions would be much appreciated.
 
You know I do see the "Hello everyone I understand what the bible says but my husband is taking it serious and I might just die" sentiment come up a lot. Maybe a sort of set response to address the feelings (ew) that women have when suddenly thrust into an unfamiliar situation by their zealous husbands.

I know all this is probably handled behind the scenes by the ladies of the forum, but maybe it can be addressed in some rudimentary form in the FAQ.

I see that jealousy is already is already addressed, but that seems to be only one color in the kaleidoscope of complex emotions (ew) that torment these girls.

It would probably have to be in the woman to woman section. I know I certainly don't have anything helpful to add. Just maybe a longish essay about why they technically shouldn't be allowed to feel like they do.
 
I think that is a good idea Slumberfreeze. Once I have retreat stuff taken care of I will take some time to look into posts regarding the "renewing of our minds" or emotions. That way you can reference the FAQ in the future and not deal with all those feelings. :)
 
I myself was unaware until recent that polygamy = marriage multiplied. So maybe something that concisely explains what it's about because people have normally far too many misconception even before starting to read anything..
 
FollowingHim2 said:
ZecAustin said:
You always see a lot of men asking how to convince their wives.
This one's easy, it only needs one word response.

PRAY

Only bigger, and bright red.

I don't think that's how the average man takes it, unfortunately. It would be certainly nice if that's what it was but I'm afraid it isn't.
 
I notice that there isn't anything concerning the legality of polygyny. I've written extensively about that in the past, if any of you guys want any of it shoot me a message.

I've got one answer that will probably help clean up a few faqs, along with a Biblical point that may clean up a few others.

Answer Concerning:

FAQ: Isn't Monogamy God's Ideal
FAQ: Didn't Jesus Teach Monogamy?

Related FAQ's impacted by this:
FAQ: Might God Have Planned PM From the Beginning?
FAQ: Doctrines of Demons
FAQ: Why Not Adam, Eve, and Suzie?


Essentially, every single question about monogamy vs polygyny assumes a dichotomy that does not exist because the Bible doesn't actually mention monogamy or polygamy, it talks about marriage, which is based on a standard of commitment. In fact, marriage is actually defined as a standard of commitment and we judge all other relationships by that standard of commitment. I think some of y'all will like this.

The hint I got was in Matthew 19. We all know the story, The Pharisees came to Jesus and asked what the grounds were for divorce. Jesus quoted Genesis 2:24 and said "what therefore God has joined together let no man separate." In other words, there are no grounds for divorce. The Pharisees came back at Him and said "Yeah? Well why did Moses say we could?" Jesus told them Moses *permitted* it for the hardness of their hearts, but from the beginning it has not been this way.

That was the clue stick that hit me.

What Jesus pointed to is that Genesis 2:24 is the authority for a man to begin a marriage, not the authority to end a marriage he has begun. In other words, what Genesis 2:24 doesn't say is just as important as what it does say. Now, let's take that and watch what happens:

Genesis 2:24 Authorizes the man to initiate marriage.
Genesis 2:24 Contains no authority to end a marriage.
Genesis 2:24 Contains no restrictions on how often marriage can be initiated.

Therefore: The man is authorized to initiate marriage that is permanent (he has no authority to end it) but not exclusive to the first wife (there is no restriction on him taking any subsequent wife). The woman is married with exclusive commitment to her husband as long as he lives. We can rephrase it as

Marriage is permanent but non-exclusive commitment by the man in return for the woman's exclusive commitment for his lifetime.

That is the standard of commitment for ALL marriage and the reason why the monogamy-polygyny dichotomy is false. However, history tells us there was a really good reason for doing it the way God did it. That word boils down to accountability, because the current substitute of permanent and exclusive commitment by both doesn't work because in such a monopoly situation the wife has zero accountability.

God's standard of commitment got thrown out by the church starting around 500 AD, and the unbiblical standard that replaced it was one in which the man gave permanent and exclusive commitment in this thing called "monogamous marriage." In other words, the wife got a monopoly situation which eliminated all competition from other women and along with the elimination of competition, all exogenous motivation to perform and accountability for performance was also eliminated.

Experience tells us that God's standard is required in order for what we think of as monogamy to work correctly because it gives the wives the motivation to please their husband with the competitive threat of another woman being brought in to do what she won’t do (or does poorly). This is accountability that is not present in the modern version of exclusive-commitment monogamy. Under God's standard, lacking a monopoly if she fails to perform and supply decent service to her one customer, he is free to bring another competitor into the market to supply him with what she isn’t. And if that happens there is nobody to blame but her, she cannot escape the accountability for her failure. The husband honors his vows of permanent commitment, the marriage is not destroyed, the children continue to live with both their biological parents and if anything the marriage is better off because of the increase in the labor supply.

Under the current "design" when the pressure builds up enough, the family is dismantled and the parts are distributed. The vows are violated and because the husband is the head of the family, no matter how it happened he bears at least a portion of the blame. Due to the legal climate, under the standard of permanent and exclusive commitment by the husband the wife cannot be held accountable for her behavior in the marriage or her responsibility in destroying the marriage.

So, the real answer to the question about whether monogamy is the gold standard is that it's the wrong question. The real question is whether God's standard for marital commitment is best and the answer is yes. That also answers the uncomfortable Biblical examples of polygyny featuring or assuming rival wives. Men are almost always fine with one good wife and when we see more than one wife at the lower levels it means there was a problem, but the system is working correctly and the family stayed intact and no vows were broken. OTOH, when we see multiple wives/concubines with leaders or otherwise powerful men, it doesn't mean the wives failed, it indicates he wanted more than one and had the capacity to have more than one.

I think a few of the FAQ's can be cleaned up a bit with one application of Scripture.

Romans 4:15 says "Where there is no Law there is no violation."
Romans 5:13 says "Where there is no violation there is no sin imputed."

Put them together and you have "Where there is no law there is no violation, and without a violation of law there is no sin imputed."

That was the hammer. Now we look at the Anvil.

Deuteronomy 4:2 and 12:32 both command not to add to the law or subtract from it. Period.
Christ said not the least stroke or shading of the pen would pass away from the Law until all things are complete. Since we don't have a new heaven or a new earth, I'd say all things are not complete.

Therefore, it cannot possibly be claimed that polygyny is a sin without violating the law against adding to the Law and subtracting from the Law. Essentially that means if someone holds the position that polygyny is wrong for others (their conscience can convict them that it's wrong for them- that's OK) then they are in violation of Scripture for adding to and subtracting from the Law as well as judging their brothers in violation of Romans 14. When someone demands that the poly family justify its existence or "prove" what they are doing is not a sin, the appropriate response is to flip the script, point out that the person making the demands is in rebellion against God's Word and ask them to repent.

Making that point doesn't really work for most of the folks that condemn poly relationships because their mind is made up and can't be changed, but it provides an irrefutable answer and I think it does go a long way toward helping folks in a plural marriage know that they stand on solid moral ground.
 
If you go here: viewforum.php?f=16
It's the Marriage and Family Discussions area. There's heaps of 'Overcoming objections to plural marriage' that may cover some topics you're thinking of Eristhophanes.
I think that these should be removed from where they are and combined with the FAQ section perhaps with more robust single answers rather than lots of comments.
 
Eristhophanes said:
Men are almost always fine with one good wife and when we see more than one wife at the lower levels it means there was a problem, but the system is working correctly ...

Eristhophanes, what are you referring to here? I keep hearing that the reason why a man takes another wife is for the same reason as he took the first one so why would you say that it's to fix an obvious problem?
 
Lila said:
Eristhophanes said:
Men are almost always fine with one good wife and when we see more than one wife at the lower levels it means there was a problem, but the system is working correctly ...

Eristhophanes, what are you referring to here? I keep hearing that the reason why a man takes another wife is for the same reason as he took the first one so why would you say that it's to fix an obvious problem?

The situation in the Bible is not the same that we see today and unfortunately this isn't a twitter-style answer. Sorry. But I did try to make this a complete answer. <grin>

Today, I observe that for some men, poly relationships literally jump in their lap or crawl into their bed. If he accepts her, the woman he is already with doesn't normally protest. In socio-sexual terms that man is of sufficiently high value that women will willingly share him rather than lose him. If the women in this situation are in their twenties and good-looking (they have options) then that man is probably in the top 5% of all men. As women age what they are attracted to in a man (in general) changes from a focus on raw masculine dominance to more of a focus on provisioning and comfort traits. For women in their thirties, the top 10% of men could accomplish this. By the time women hit their 40's, perhaps the top 15% of men could manage to attract women willing to submit to a polygynous relationship.

(By definition, any time you see a man today with more than one wife he is in the top 10%, unless- in very rare cases -the 1st wife is incredibly extraordinary and subverts her "rights" in favor of obedience to Scripture in an area that is completely contrary to the culture and church tradition. I have only met 2 such women in all my life)

I am really only talking about the high-value men because fundamentally, in this day and age, it's all about attraction and there is NOTHING to keep a woman in a marriage if she doesn't want to be there. It is literally easier to end a marriage than a cell phone contract. In addition to that, the laws are now skewed sufficiently in favor of women that the incentives are aligned to literally reward women for destroying their marriages. So, in terms of observations on polygyny with regard to the modern day, it's all about attraction. The idea that a man and woman were married and the relationship was so bad that the husband had to get another *concurrent* wife is ludicrous today because that can and does happen all the time... but in the interval between the relationship going south and getting another wife is a divorce. In other words polygamy (many marriages- serial monogamy) rather than polygyny (many wives).

Lower tier men might desire more than one concurrent wife, but practically speaking it's impossible for them, regardless of what the Bible says.

That was not the case in the OT times, when adultery was literally a death penalty offense and marriage was for life. (Yes, Moses permitted divorce, and then Christ forbid it to Christians but this isn't the place for a discussion of divorce.) At that time the standard of marriage was clear: the man gave the woman permanent but non-exclusive commitment and in return for that the woman gave him (enforced) exclusive commitment. Should her performance not measure up, he had the option to take another wife, but at a cost of household conflict. Observe that even the heathen Chinee understood this: the pictogram for trouble is 2 women under 1 roof. Taking another (rival) wife raised the level of conflict in the home and if the man was willing to endure that, he was free to do so. Because of the social structures in place, I would say that unlike today, at least half of the men at that time could attract another wife. Then too, all it took was money to negotiate marriage to a second wife with her father or simply to purchase a virgin to be his concubine.

This situation is where you get the references to the rival wife or the man who had two wives, one loved and the other hated. God's design for marriage requires permanent commitment, but not exclusive commitment. Whatever the problem was in the relationship, his final "tool" to fix things was to bring in another wife. However, keep in mind that the option of polygyny is a solution for many problems, some of which may have nothing to do with misbehavior or infertility on the part of the first wife.

Deuteronomy 22 lists the various judgments on the crime of what we call rape, but there are two classes of women not even mentioned who should have been: widows and legitimately divorced women. Does God love these women so little that He provided them with no protection under the Law against rape, or is it that under God's design these women, once free from their marriage, were expected to re-marry quickly. In that case the numbers would be so insignificant that they aren't worth mentioning and I think Scripture supports that. I argue that this is the case and it is part of God's plan that women be married. That being the case, there is absolutely no reason a woman must be judged on her "sexual market value" (youth, looks) for marriage because men are not restricted to a single wife.

A young man with a young wife could add a much older woman to the family because she is in need (a destitute widow, for example) and she has valuable household management skills. It isn't about sex. Yes, they both obtain conjugal rights, but so what? She's protected, provided for and a valuable addition to the household. I know one family in which this is the case, the older woman in question being almost 30 years older than the husband. He has two wives younger than him and she guides them and instructs them. When he's downrange (up to 9 months at at time) she's in charge of the home. That woman will never cross the threshold of a nursing home, she will die surround by her people who love and respect her. Which is as it should be.

Men back then married second or third wives for many different reasons. They still do today, but often not for the same reasons.

One example is ignorance. Observe all the unintentionally polygynous families in which a Christian wife left (divorced) her Christian husband and he later married another woman. According to 1st Peter 3:1 and 1st Cor. 7:10-11, wife #1 is still married to him and he now has 2 wives. If wife #1 ever repents of what she did and wants to come home, her husband has no choice but to reconcile to her (Ephesians 5- "love her like Christ would, He never turns away a repentant sinner" and 1st Peter 3 "live with your wives"). All of which puts wife #2 in the rather interesting position of thinking she got into a monogamous marriage and then learning that it wasn't... and not only that, she was the second wife. I know a woman who is seriously struggling with this right now.
 
Eristophanes & Lila: Interesting discussion, but it's getting off-topic, if there's a particular topic you wish to discuss could you please start another thread for it? Here I'm really just wanting to figure out what topics people want covered in the FAQs.

So far we have:
1)"What does the Bible say about polygyny" / "Help defending Biblical polygyny". Eristophanes first post essentially addresses a key aspect of this.
2) Wife: "I know the Bible says it's ok but my husband wants to actually do it and I'm freaking out" (I'm not sure what the question is but that is a very common sentiment that should be addressed) - Julie has suggested she could address this.
3) "How do I convince my wife that polygyny is ok" (answer = PRAY, plus some other points)
4) "But isn't marriage between one man & one woman?" (answer: polygyny = marriage multiplied)
5) Legality of polygyny (ie in secular law) - needs to consider multiple jurisdictions, general approaches around the world, rather than specifics on US law.

And a bonus
6) Why women technically should be forbidden from ever feeling bad about polygyny (longish essay to be written by Slumberfreeze) - but it sounds like it would take a while to write though so maybe we could pass on that one :D

Some of these are already addressed in the FAQs, others will need to be rewritten.

Have I missed anything in this summary? Are there other key questions that should be answered? There must be more than five frequently asked questions!
 
Isn't God's ideal for a man to only have one wife? Adam and Eve, Deacons should only have one wife etc.

What about multiple husbands?
 
FollowingHim2 said:
Isn't God's ideal for a man to only have one wife? Adam and Eve, Deacons should only have one wife etc.

What about multiple husbands?

What I've come to realize is that the entire "polygyny vs monogamy" is nothing more than a straw man that moves the attention away from the definition of the underlying marital commitment, which is the definition of what marriage actually is.

Genesis 2:24 set a standard for all marriage as a commitment by the husband (who marries the woman) that is permanent and non-exclusive. No matter how many wives he might have, be it one or more, the standard of permanent and non-exclusive commitment on his part is absolute. The wife, by Law, provides permanent and exclusive commitment.

*Trigger Alert* The man marries (active verb) the woman and what Exodus 21:7; Deuteronomy 21:10-14 and Deuteronomy 22:28-29 are all clear on is that for the eligible virgin (not betrothed), her consent to marry is not required because she can be married against her will in the absence of all commitment and consent. Once married, by law, she is bound to her husband as long as he lives and her commitment to him is, by law, exclusive.

Given that during Biblical times there were a lot more marriages in which the woman was in fact married against her will and over her objections, that might account for the issues with adultery that keep popping up.

The Bible does not mention either monogamy or polygyny, only marriage. The entire idea of "monogamy" was invented by the church sometime after about 600AD and the idea of monogamy hides the fact that God's standard of marriage for the man is permanent and non-exclusive.

Can a woman have more than one husband? No, a woman cannot initiate marriage, only a man. Once married, her commitment is to her husband and sex with any other man is adultery. The principle that no man can have two masters also applies. A husband can have more than one wife because he is the head and he rules his wife or wives, but any woman who claims to have more than one husband is claiming to be the head of the men and she is claiming that she married them. FAIL.
 
Eristophanes - I along with most people here already know the answers to the questions I posted. The point of this thread is to put forth questions that are frequently asked by people that are seeking information on plural marriage and who are new to this website. The two questions I posted are the two I get asked the most. That and "Do you really think you could share Samuel though?" which is probably not a frequently asked question of others lol.
 
FollowingHim2 said:
I along with most people here already know the answers to the questions I posted. The point of this thread is to put forth questions that are frequently asked by people that are seeking information on plural marriage and who are new to this website.

I believe you, but I thought I'd restate that the real issue is the foundation of marriage, which is the standard of commitment; not the support and examples down the line. Since I'm not writing these FAQ's, I thought I'd make the point here.


FollowingHim said:
3) "How do I convince my wife that polygyny is ok" (answer = PRAY, plus some other points)

From everything I have seen and heard, this all boils down to standards of marriage.

1500 years ago the church threw out God's standard of permanent but non-exclusive commitment by the man and replaced it with permanent and exclusive commitment. This was reinforced with the introduction in the formal vows of marriage to "forsake all others." This is completely appropriate for women but not for men. However, once vowed, as long as the marriage is legitimate the vows hold even though the vows are voluntary.

A healthy study of Genesis 2:24 is in order because between tradition and church teaching the lie that marriage is an exclusive commitment on the part of the man, it's a lie most people believe. No amount of contrary opinion will shake that, only the Word of God.

However, there is an issue that I don't think gets addressed here, although I could be wrong.

Under Genesis 2:24 the standard of marriage (according to Christ in Matthew 19) is permanent commitment. Then Moses changed that to allow divorce, only by the man, in the event his wife committed porneia (sexual sin of the adultery/incest/idolatry flavor, but because she's married it comes down to adultery). Following that, in 1st Corinthians 7:10-11, Christ gave instruction to His servants married to one another, re-instituting the standards of Genesis 2:24, no divorce for any reason and no exceptions. Then the Apostle Paul gave instruction on believers who were married to unbelievers (forbidden in 2nd Corinthians 8), citing abandonment by the unbeliever as the standard to be loosed from the marriage.

Because of the belief that marriage is a permanent and exclusive commitment, it was like redesigning a hot water heater with no pressure release valve. As history has shown us, marriage is no longer permanent and within the church the standard of the law has been expanded to include just about everything and in general people don't care.

So, what about the woman who is married to a man and leaves him? According to 1st Corinthians 7:10, she is still married (regardless of what some state-court judge thinks) and he is still her husband. He is not forbidden to take another wife (and thinks that legally, he is no longer married and can take another wife) and does so. At some point in the future the wife comes to her senses and wants to come home. According to Ephesians 5 he is to love her as Christ loves the church and Christ never turns His back on a repentant sinner. Likewise, 1st Peter 3:7 commands men to live with their wives. He really doesn't have a choice but to be reconciled with his 1st wife, but he also has a second wife.

Essentially they discover they've gotten into a polygynous marriage. I know one woman (2nd wife) who is in this position and while Cupcake (1st wife) hasn't come home, the realization of what Scripture says is kind of hanging over her head. She's flipping out and I point out that her husband has responsibilities in this and fighting it is actually trying to block his obedience to God.

There is a whole lot more polygyny out there than anyone can imagine.
 
FollowingHim said:
There must be more than five frequently asked questions!

The thought occurred that perhaps thinking of the FAQ as only trying to answer questions that are asked is being too narrow.

What, specifically, would you like people to know that they might not think to ask? I've heard people walk into a restaurant they've never been to and when asked what they want say "give me whatever everyone else is having." They want something good and figure that's what's popular, but they don't know why or anything else about the issue... they just figure the regulars know what's good.

Turn that type of situation around. What do you want people to know about Biblical Marriage?

One of the things I've been coming back to recently is that both Genesis 2:24 and Genesis 3:16 are almost completely ignored by the Church. WRT Genesis 3:16, there is an interesting twist to what isn't said that might well be answered well by this group. He said "your desire shall be for your husband and he shall rule over you." OK, she has a desire to be ruled. Implicitly the text is telling men to be fit to rule. The NT focus is willing and cheerful submission of wives and for the husband's to love their wives, but the foundation on which that sits is Genesis 3:16. Wives you know you have to submit to your ruler, but because you're a Christian do it cheerfully and willingly. Husbands, you are to be fit to rule, but don't just rule her, love her.

Again, I suspect some here might be able to offer excellent insight to that.
 
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