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Torah observant vs Torah centric

Bartato said:
For starters

Revelation 5:13-14
"And I heard every creature in heaven and on earth and under the earth and in the sea, and all that is in them, saying,

“To him who sits on the throne and to the Lamb be blessing and honor and glory and might forever and ever!”
And the four living creatures said, “Amen!” and the elders fell down and worshiped."
Click to expand...
Sorry haven't been on the site in a while. Just checked in and saw @Pacman called me out so I read up to this piont in this thread.
So Pacman is right. In Greek, any time an English translation renders that someone "worshipped" Yeshua the Greek verb at play is Proskuneo which maps through the Septuagint to the Hebrew word Mishtachaveh (prostrate down). Now this word represents the idea of prostrating down (as Avraham did before the Sons of Cheyth when buying the cave Hamachpeylah for his wife's body). We also see this used when Bathsheva and the prophet Nathan came to King David in his old age they Mishtachavehd (LXX says Proskuneo'd) in front of him. Now Nathan is not worshipping king David nor is his wife. So I did an indepth study on this a few years back (can try to find the video if anyone is interested) and EVERY single time your English bible says someone "worshipped" Yeshua, it's the verb Mishtachaveh (Proskuneo). This is what one would expect when 3 wisemen come to give homage to a King (baby Yeshua). For he truly is the King. Now the act of prostrating down Can constutite an act of worship in the same way that singing can be an act of worship; singing, however can be that you just like the words of Eminem so you are rapping away. Same with prostrating down; it can be part of worship, or doing obeissance before a king, or simply demonstrating humility as Avraham did to the (possibly pagan) sons of Cheyth.
So is there another word used in the Greek Apostolic writings which means more definitely "worship"? Yes there is. That word is Latra-e-u; it maps to the Hebrew word 'avad which has a graeter meaning of "to serve" as when Joshua says "choose this day whom you will serve." This leads into a much longer sermon about what worship really is (ie service to the L-rd). Now this word is the word which is used in the Hebrew term "avodah zarah" (foreign worship / strange worship ie serving other gods). The Levitical "service" Hebrew: 'avodah is related to the same verb. So the question is, do we ever see the word Latra-e-u applied to G-d in the Apostolic writings? Yes. Is it ever applied to Yeshua? No. Do we ever see any example of "worship" other than the ambiguous prostrating down applied to Yeshua from any of the Disciples? No.

So we learn the proper protocol to worship G-d in the way His son taught us to worship AND pray to him: "Our FATHER who is in heaven...." thanks to the Messiah for teaching us the proper protocol of prayer .. to the FATHER.

There is a hierarchy to our G-d. Father is over son (clearly the language of being seated at the right hand should make this undisputable) and the Holy Spirit is subservient to the son. Hope this helps.
I'll try to check in more often.

**edit 30 seconds after posting** I forgot to mention, I think in Old English "worship" also just meant bowing down? Like couldn't you "worship a king"? I wouldn't be surprised if this contributed to the modern translations emulating the old while the word is not used this way colloquially any more today.
 
IshChayil said:
Sorry haven't been on the site in a while. Just checked in and saw @Pacman called me out so I read up to this piont in this thread.
So Pacman is right. In Greek, any time an English translation renders that someone "worshipped" Yeshua the Greek verb at play is Proskuneo which maps through the Septuagint to the Hebrew word Mishtachaveh (prostrate down). Now this word represents the idea of prostrating down (as Avraham did before the Sons of Cheyth when buying the cave Hamachpeylah for his wife's body). We also see this used when Bathsheva and the prophet Nathan came to King David in his old age they Mishtachavehd (LXX says Proskuneo'd) in front of him. Now Nathan is not worshipping king David nor is his wife. So I did an indepth study on this a few years back (can try to find the video if anyone is interested) and EVERY single time your English bible says someone "worshipped" Yeshua, it's the verb Mishtachaveh (Proskuneo). This is what one would expect when 3 wisemen come to give homage to a King (baby Yeshua). For he truly is the King. Now the act of prostrating down Can constutite an act of worship in the same way that singing can be an act of worship; singing, however can be that you just like the words of Eminem so you are rapping away. Same with prostrating down; it can be part of worship, or doing obeissance before a king, or simply demonstrating humility as Avraham did to the (possibly pagan) sons of Cheyth.
So is there another word used in the Greek Apostolic writings which means more definitely "worship"? Yes there is. That word is Latra-e-u; it maps to the Hebrew word 'avad which has a graeter meaning of "to serve" as when Joshua says "choose this day whom you will serve." This leads into a much longer sermon about what worship really is (ie service to the L-rd). Now this word is the word which is used in the Hebrew term "avodah zarah" (foreign worship / strange worship ie serving other gods). The Levitical "service" Hebrew: 'avodah is related to the same verb. So the question is, do we ever see the word Latra-e-u applied to G-d in the Apostolic writings? Yes. Is it ever applied to Yeshua? No. Do we ever see any example of "worship" other than the ambiguous prostrating down applied to Yeshua from any of the Disciples? No.

So we learn the proper protocol to worship G-d in the way His son taught us to worship AND pray to him: "Our FATHER who is in heaven...." thanks to the Messiah for teaching us the proper protocol of prayer .. to the FATHER.

There is a hierarchy to our G-d. Father is over son (clearly the language of being seated at the right hand should make this undisputable) and the Holy Spirit is subservient to the son. Hope this helps.
I'll try to check in more often.

**edit 30 seconds after posting** I forgot to mention, I think in Old English "worship" also just meant bowing down? Like couldn't you "worship a king"? I wouldn't be surprised if this contributed to the modern translations emulating the old while the word is not used this way colloquially any more today.
Click to expand...
Yes I would like to see the video
 
Pacman said:
Yes I would like to see the video
Click to expand...
Ok I'll search for it ... Hoe I named it meaningfully. In my new channel I always timecode the subjects but on the old channel usually it's just a Torah portion name hehe.
 
PeteR said:
Shalom @IshChayil good to see you here, achi. I pray you and your family are well!
Click to expand...
Same to you akhi! Glad to see you are a mod here now; truly an Israelite without guile :)
 
IshChayil said:
So Pacman is right. In Greek, any time an English translation renders that someone "worshipped" Yeshua the Greek verb at play is Proskuneo which maps through the Septuagint to the Hebrew word Mishtachaveh (prostrate down). Now this word represents the idea of prostrating down (as Avraham did before the Sons of Cheyth when buying the cave Hamachpeylah for his wife's body). We also see this used when Bathsheva and the prophet Nathan came to King David in his old age they Mishtachavehd (LXX says Proskuneo'd) in front of him. Now Nathan is not worshipping king David nor is his wife. So I did an indepth study on this a few years back (can try to find the video if anyone is interested) and EVERY single time your English bible says someone "worshipped" Yeshua, it's the verb Mishtachaveh (Proskuneo). This is what one would expect when 3 wisemen come to give homage to a King (baby Yeshua). For he truly is the King. Now the act of prostrating down Can constutite an act of worship in the same way that singing can be an act of worship; singing, however can be that you just like the words of Eminem so you are rapping away. Same with prostrating down; it can be part of worship, or doing obeissance before a king, or simply demonstrating humility as Avraham did to the (possibly pagan) sons of Cheyth.
So is there another word used in the Greek Apostolic writings which means more definitely "worship"? Yes there is. That word is Latra-e-u; it maps to the Hebrew word 'avad which has a graeter meaning of "to serve" as when Joshua says "choose this day whom you will serve." This leads into a much longer sermon about what worship really is (ie service to the L-rd). Now this word is the word which is used in the Hebrew term "avodah zarah" (foreign worship / strange worship ie serving other gods). The Levitical "service" Hebrew: 'avodah is related to the same verb. So the question is, do we ever see the word Latra-e-u applied to G-d in the Apostolic writings? Yes. Is it ever applied to Yeshua? No. Do we ever see any example of "worship" other than the ambiguous prostrating down applied to Yeshua from any of the Disciples? No.
Click to expand...
Just noticed this. Thankyou @IshChayil for that.

What I found interesting is that latreuo (Strongs G3000) is usually translated "serve" - it's actually hardly ever translated "worship". This helps us to understand what worship actually is - it is service, obedience. It's got nothing to do with singing songs, so it really isn't a "religious ceremony". It's just how you live your life.

So if we forget the English word "worship", which is confusing as it is used to translate both things, we are left with two things we can do with regards to God:
- Bow down. Express a willingness to submit & obey. Proskuneo
- Serve. Actually follow through with that and do the obedience. latreuo.

So the two words are quite different and yet go together very closely, and by understanding their actual meanings we could understand scripture much more clearly. Why can't translators just translate what such critical words mean consistently instead of complicating it by using the same English word for multiple things? The endless frustration of any Bible study...

But I then wonder - is not bowing down a promise that you will serve, and implies that you will then go on to actually serve? If you did not then follow that through with service, would the bowing down not have been a lie? So in that sense, we are to serve (latreuo) Yeshua.

It's just that because He in turn serves the Father, we are serving the Father through Him. In the same way that you obey the commander-in-chief by obeying the general he has appointed to lead the army. You can legitimately say both that "I serve the general" and "I serve the CinC".

So I don't see any contradiction here between serving/worshipping Yeshua and serving/worshipping the Father. They're actually the same thing in practice.
 
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