Up to Jerusalem

[Shadowjak's Dancer]

Ha.
Wearing the yarmulka in Israel has a different meaning than in the states.
In the states it often means "I'm a Jew"
In Israel it means "I'm an Orthodox Jew" so you'll probably find Israelis who believe in G-d and keep shabbat and kosher will scorn at you if they see you doing something "unorthodox" since the Kippah to them says "I'm Orthodox" and the Orthodox will scorn at you when they see you doing something unorthodox because they'll think "sinner" since the kippah on your head signals to them "I'm one of you".
May wanna keep the hat over the kippah to keep everyone on their best behaviour instead of
unintended international incident

l'Shannah Tovah

May wanna mind your own bloody business. You're really beginning to annoy me. To think that I need to change how I wear my Kippah because you or anyone else happens to have an opinion!

Get real. If I wear it every day in the USA, I must be somehow ashamed to carry on in Israel? Grow up, dude.

 

[IshChayil]

May wanna mind your own bloody business. You're really beginning to annoy me. To think that I need to change how I wear my Kippah because you or anyone else happens to have an opinion!

Get real. If I wear it every day in the USA, I must be somehow ashamed to carry on in Israel? Grow up, dude.

Wow practicing what you are preaching?
Thank you for that jarring message, nice way to start my day; Lash out at the brother who is trying to help you and others.

I was trying to be helpful since you are a tourist - often "Messianic" visitors from USA get themselves into to trouble by slapping on a kippah when they don't know even how to say things like "New Year" in Hebrew; since there is no command to wear a kippah, and it means "I'm orthodox Jew" to Israelis.

It was a sincere attempt to save you some embarassment and from embarassing the Messianic movement and a being a bad witness to Jews...

Didn't mean to be "bloody annoying" - sheesh
Please, get back to your sermonizing about the "carnival showiness" of the Messianic movement as you so intricately know the movement...
***reflections***
trying to figure out what got you so angry in this holiday season of personal reflection I think what ticked you off was my correcting your Hebrew publicly. You know me a bit, in the past I corrected you on things like that privately, it's just that you kept writing Yom TeruaKH (means "training day" instead of Yom TeruaH "New Year" "day of blast sounds" on more than one post teaching others so I decided to gently correct it publicly as well. I also thought the kippah/yarmulka insight to Israeli culture vs. American Jewish culture would help others as well as this is a classic mistake Americans make in the land; Israelis are different than American Jews to them the kippah/yarmulka is not about identity they know who they are, it's all about religious identification (as I wrote in my bloody annoying post).
I apologize if trying to give you these cultural hints about Israelis came off as annoying. Not my intent at all.
I think you can check your response as it's a bit hot. I didn't call you a bad person or anything.
As my dad says, "Gut Yontif"! (Happy Holiday)

 

[Shadowjak's Dancer]

You have had a very pompous attitude trying to go around and school everyone about the (your) right way of doing things. The first time had to do with that Jacob being called a deceiver discussion.

I previously lived in Israel for a year and a half. It is not my first rodeo. I don't give a rat's tattooed butt-cheeks about your opinions.

As I said in the other thread, I am actually a bit dyslexic. Go ahead and disregard my humble acceptance of your correction when you were actually right, if you think that is edifying.

I am not here for you. I don't wear my kippah for you, or for the orthodox.

You can feel free to discontinue responding to my posts on these boards.

 

[IshChayil]

You have had a very pompous attitude trying to go around and school everyone about the (your) right way of doing things. The first time had to do with that Jacob being called a deceiver discussion.
I previously lived in Israel for a year and a half. It is not my first rodeo. I don't give a rat's tattooed butt-cheeks about your opinions.

"Jacob the Jew",
we had numerous private dialogues about Yiddishkeit, etc. where I shared with you about my legal connection to the land; Why wasn't it germane then in those numerous emails about Hebrew and Jewishness and Israel to mention you had actually visited Israel ever in your life, let alone "lived in the land for a year and half"??? You only told me you were planning a trip this Sukhot. Interesting it only comes up now (that you actually LIVED there for a year and a half).
... of course I wouldn't have offered you tips now had you previously claimed this. Sorry my tips were so intolerable.

You accepted my offer to teach you Hebrew then you just stopped responding when I sent you the questionnaire to determine your level. I've been trying to help you for some months now...why the anger?

As I said in the other thread, I am actually a bit dyslexic. Go ahead and disregard my humble acceptance of your correction when you were actually right, if you think that is edifying.
I am not here for you. I don't wear my kippah for you, or for the orthodox.

I apologize about the dyslexia, since I never saw you swap letters in your English posts, I did not know dyslexia was affecting only Hebrew and not English; and I also did not know dyslexia caused people to use a new letter and sound in a word altogether. I thought it was about letter ordering getting messed up. Anyway I thought you were joking invoking "mild dyslexia" since I saw you write the word the same way in 3 different places. Maybe this is a bit ADHD in me as a Hebrew teacher to not be able to let that go after the 3rd time in the 2nd post of seeing "training day" instead of "new year" . I didn't want others to repeat it that way and look bad.

Regarding the kippah (Jew hat), you told me months ago in our chats that you got very angry when Orthodox guys would question you about your Jewish lineage so I thought you may need to be shielded/warned not to wear the kippah in Israel; I thought to protect you from this anger during the yamim noraim and also not make the Messianic movement look foolish; it really hurts our ministry to Jews.
This is a mitzvah, you'd do well to learn it as you could learn to respect your elders / scholars, what in the world did you learn about Jewish culture?

You can feel free to discontinue responding to my posts on these boards.

If a Hebrew correction and a tip about how Israelis view kippot (from an actual Israeli) drives you to such rage I'm truly sorry for you.
It would do you well to learn to receive correction from a brother older in Torah than yourself; especially such mild correction and in the form of "hey look out for that ok?" tone.
Maybe there are more important things to focus on in these days of repentance than the hats we wear...

ט֭וֹבָה תּוֹכַ֣חַת מְגֻלָּ֑ה מֵֽאַהֲבָ֥ה מְסֻתָּֽרֶת׃ uncovered correction is better than secret love
Proverbs 27:5
***after thought***
Look it's Days of Awe, I think this is spiritual. Can you please look at the history of this thread, reread my posts (before you became hostile with "mind your bloody business" and the like) and ask yourself if what I wrote really qualified for any kind of anger response on your part? Just be honest with yourself "do I really wanna be abusive to someone who is just correcting my hebrew and giving me tips about his country?"
I'm hoping you'll write back that you bare a diabetic with low blood sugar or something like.
Shabbat shalom

 

[IshChayil]

We've been saving up for a couple of years to go. When we first started planning I came to understand why people will join travel groups with those they don't know. Its expensive. Some times travel groups are the only way to be able to afford to.

We lead tours, I've been working on a "camping tour" for the budget minded. we'll minimize stays in hotels and maximize camping! See the land like Abraham did.
Lemme know when you wanna roll

 

[andrew]

Uh, oh. Is there a Biblical Families expedition to the Holy Land in the works?...

 

[IshChayil]

Uh, oh. Is there a Biblical Families expedition to the Holy Land in the works?...

That ... would ... be ... awesome

 

[andrew]

Well, if the world doesn't end tomorrow we might want to appoint a feasibility team to do a little recon and make a proposal....

 

[Shadowjak's Dancer]

"Jacob the Jew",
we had numerous private dialogues about Yiddishkeit, etc. where I shared with you about my legal connection to the land; Why wasn't it germane then in those numerous emails about Hebrew and Jewishness and Israel to mention you had actually visited Israel ever in your life, let alone "lived in the land for a year and half"??? You only told me you were planning a trip this Sukhot. Interesting it only comes up now (that you actually LIVED there for a year and a half).
... of course I wouldn't have offered you tips now had you previously claimed this. Sorry my tips were so intolerable.

You accepted my offer to teach you Hebrew then you just stopped responding when I sent you the questionnaire to determine your level. I've been trying to help you for some months now...why the anger?



I apologize about the dyslexia, since I never saw you swap letters in your English posts, I did not know dyslexia was affecting only Hebrew and not English; and I also did not know dyslexia caused people to use a new letter and sound in a word altogether. I thought it was about letter ordering getting messed up. Anyway I thought you were joking invoking "mild dyslexia" since I saw you write the word the same way in 3 different places. Maybe this is a bit ADHD in me as a Hebrew teacher to not be able to let that go after the 3rd time in the 2nd post of seeing "training day" instead of "new year" . I didn't want others to repeat it that way and look bad.

Regarding the kippah (Jew hat), you told me months ago in our chats that you got very angry when Orthodox guys would question you about your Jewish lineage so I thought you may need to be shielded/warned not to wear the kippah in Israel; I thought to protect you from this anger during the yamim noraim and also not make the Messianic movement look foolish; it really hurts our ministry to Jews.
This is a mitzvah, you'd do well to learn it as you could learn to respect your elders / scholars, what in the world did you learn about Jewish culture?


If a Hebrew correction and a tip about how Israelis view kippot (from an actual Israeli) drives you to such rage I'm truly sorry for you.
It would do you well to learn to receive correction from a brother older in Torah than yourself; especially such mild correction and in the form of "hey look out for that ok?" tone.
Maybe there are more important things to focus on in these days of repentance than the hats we wear...

ט֭וֹבָה תּוֹכַ֣חַת מְגֻלָּ֑ה מֵֽאַהֲבָ֥ה מְסֻתָּֽרֶת׃ uncovered correction is better than secret love
Proverbs 27:5
***after thought***
Look it's Days of Awe, I think this is spiritual. Can you please look at the history of this thread, reread my posts (before you became hostile with "mind your bloody business" and the like) and ask yourself if what I wrote really qualified for any kind of anger response on your part? Just be honest with yourself "do I really wanna be abusive to someone who is just correcting my hebrew and giving me tips about his country?"
I'm hoping you'll write back that you bare a diabetic with low blood sugar or something like.
Shabbat shalom

Dude, you can insinuate that I am angry about you correcting my Hebrew mis-transliteration. Look at how I responded to that. Auto correct doesn't fix that stuff as readily as my other blunders.

So, why should I tell you that I lived in Israel? What business is it of yours? Have I told you the other countries and states I have lived in?

No. Why am I so obligated, suddenly?

Why do you think people must revolve around what you have taken it upon yourself to do for them?

I have heard so many Jewish opinions about the offensiveness of how others try to keep Torah or follow Biblical ideas and ideals. I once heard the term "bastardization" used.

I do not care what rabbi or Internet-grand-master-pubah-of-everything-that-Jews-find-offensive gets their feathers ruffled.
I am just glad so many people are coming to God. Yup, no dash in that word. Bother you, much?

There are bigger fish to fry. Get whiny, if you must, about how, when, and where I wear my kippah. I am gone up to Jerusalem to keep Sukkot as Torah commands.

I am keen to work on my Hebrew, sure, but found you otherwise very difficult to reason with in our messages about Jacob Avinu. I don't really want that kind of aggravation in my life right now.

Maybe one day I will have the luxury to care about not offending people.

Until that day, however, I have no need to justify myself to you or beg justification from you. You are Jewish whether I like it or not... you are in the same boat where it comes to me.

Yup, by the way, this was all written on Shabbat using electricity. Don't much care if that upsets you, either.

If you are in Israel, perhaps after Shabbat, maybe we can try to meet over coffee and discuss our differences of opinion in person. Otherwise, Shabbat Shalom.

 

[The Revolting Man]

Well that escalated quickly. I was very disappointed to see that.

 

[FollowingHim]

I agree. @IshChayil, do not respond further on this issue. I say this because you have a tendency to keep responding until you have enumerated every last point in detail and have the last word, this time leave it alone, this can only get uglier - leave this thread to @jacobhaivri for discussion of his trip to Israel. I know you're just trying to help, but people don't always want your help. Nor is it always needed.

 

[Shadowjak's Dancer]

I agree. @IshChayil, do not respond further on this issue. I say this because you have a tendency to keep responding until you have enumerated every last point in detail and have the last word, this time leave it alone, this can only get uglier - leave this thread to @jacobhaivri for discussion of his trip to Israel. I know you're just trying to help, but people don't always want your help. Nor is it always needed.

A soft word turns away wrath. Well spoken, @FollowingHim. You too, @ZecAustin. I will try to proceed with more grace. Thank you both for using words well seasoned and reasoned.

I needed that.

In other news, I welcomed in the Shabbat with a lovely ministry group in Ashqelon this evening after roasting most of the day on Tel Ashqelon. They have a heart for the poor and needy in the land and have opened facilities to help them while they get reintegrate into Israeli society.

There is a great need here, and these people have dedicated their lives to demonstrating the love of the Messiah.

In a Biblical Families specifically related note, my travelling buddy was highly amused when a shop keeper in Jerusalem looked at me and asked, out of the blue, "How many wives do you have?"

It made me smile.

 

[IshChayil]

I agree. @IshChayil, do not respond further on this issue. I say this because you have a tendency to keep responding until you have enumerated every last point in detail and have the last word, this time leave it alone.

Funny, as I recall you are the one who loves to get the last word and you freeze posting or delete posts to make that happen.
More unecessary moderating; I stopped responding to jacob-"the-Jew" and yes, those tips are important for anyone travelling to the land.

I agree. @IshChayil, do not respond further on this issue. I say this because you have a tendency to keep responding until you have enumerated every last point in detail and have the last word, this time leave it alone, this can only get uglier - leave this thread to @jacobhaivri for discussion of his trip to Israel. I know you're just trying to help, but people don't always want your help. Nor is it always needed.

A+ moderation. The only aggressor here was 1 party while the other kindly offered travel/safety tips.

 

[IshChayil]

Well that escalated quickly. I was very disappointed to see that.

Made me sad too Zec. It's spiritual. Look carefully at the wording.

 

[Mojo]

Gonna stick my foot in here and say that I'm not sure how Ish's "tour guide" suggestions warranted such a rebuke. There is possibly more backstory than we know, but hope that maybe travel fatigue is a factor?

I like both @IshChayil and @jacobhaivri as posters. This is nothing personal on my part. A persons style is their style.

I've been guilty myself of getting heated, so this is not pot calling kettle black stuff. After my last feud, I'm thinking perhaps private messages are the best avenue for these things.

Peace.

 

[FollowingHim]

@IshChayil, I called you out simply because in the back-and-forth that was going on @jacobhaivri had spoken last and it was your "turn" next, so asking you to stop was the most effective way to stop the whole thing. It is obvious to all readers that you were both at fault, this was not about you specifically. My post was a call for you to take the high road and be the one to stop the debate, rather than an attempt to pin the blame for the entire exchange on you.

Unfortunately I worded my comment poorly in the moment, and could easily have given the impression I was taking sides, which was not my intention. Having had this pointed out to me already, I was meaning to post a clarification last night, but neglected to, and you beat me to it. Sorry for wording this in an unclear fashion.

 

[andrew]

Gonna stick my foot in here and say that I'm not sure how Ish's "tour guide" suggestions warranted such a rebuke.

It didn't. jacobhaiviri was out of line and borderline abusive without justification.

I'm thinking perhaps private messages are the best avenue for these things.

They are. "Praise in public, criticize in private" is a rule so fundamental it saddens me that we have to review it here among grownups.

Everything else I have to say here will be handled via PM, save this:

Samuel is still the Lead Moderator here with a long history and track record as a thoughtful and judicious moderator. Nobody gets it right 100% of the time in any endeavor; what matters is how you recover. Samuel's initial effort to rein in the thread could have been phrased differently, but his follow up sets it right. Should anyone in future threads have an issue with @FollowingHim or @Verifyveritas76 or @aineo based on their moderation of a thread, I strongly recommend you avail yourself of the process laid out by Jesus in Matthew 18 for exactly that situation: Start your grievance process with a PM to the person who offended you.

 

[Shadowjak's Dancer]

I think the advice to follow Matthew 18 is the ticket for the day. I allowed this thread to devolve into a public argument, to my shame. I hope that all parties involved in continued discussion will accept my apology allowing that to happen, and help me to reign it back in to where it should be.

Thanks in advance.

 

[andrew]

Apology accepted, and proud of you for the stand up response.

As we get back on track, I know many of us are very interested in your experiences on your trip, and would love for you to continue the narrative.

 

[Verifyveritas76]

I'll just second what Andrew said and say that I was enjoying your posts @jacobhaivri. I do hope to see more.