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Utah watching?

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/nat ... cmpid=rss1
Utah's attorney-general is keeping an eye on a B.C. court case examining Canada's polygamy laws, as the state struggles to deal with tens of thousands of fundamentalist Mormons who believe in multiple marriage.

But the state has taken a different approach to dealing with the closed polygamous compounds that dot the region's mountainous landscape, limiting prosecution to clear-cut cases of abuse and reaching out to fundamentalist Mormon communities to ensure children and women have access to help.
 
Realy? How convenient is that! So it's illegal to be polygamist in Utah, there are thousands and instead of prosicuting the openly polygamist you go after clear cut abuse cases. Abuse Cases! I think our countries both have anti abuse laws, non of which are about polygamy, to me this proves the involidity of polygamy laws.

I am against abuse.
I am against molestation.
I am against child brides.
These things are illegal in Canada and the USA

Even more contaverstial, I am against Mormonism. Sorry if I offended those who are but many here are not. But mormonism is legal through freedom of religon, a choice given by god since the begining of man kind.
 
Sorry if I offended those who are but many here are not. But mormonism is legal through freedom of religon, a choice given by god since the begining of man kind.

Really? :shock:
 
The article was very informative to me. I didn't know about the history of polygyny in Utah and Arizona. I like the fact that Utah's AG says they find that the raids are more harmful to the children than the lifestyle.

If you looked at the comments underneath the article, that told me all I need to know. The world at large uses the word polygamy to define the underage marriage and child abuse that we all hate with such vehemence. I think if we could find a way to separate the term from the popular belief people would just say "whatever floats your boat." But because people associated polygyny with all those abuses, it is hard to get anything but a gut level response of anger and disgust.

I think we should stop using the word polygamy. Plural marriage is just as bad. Polygyny is so close to polygamy that it doesn't help. I think that we should call it Biblical Marriage only. That way it doesn't automatically evoke these hateful and hurtful reactions.

SweetLissa
 
I don't know Lissa,

Regardless of what it's called, when the world sees a man, two+ women, and a bunch of children in a family, they'll think the man is a pervert, the women are brainwashed slaves, and the children are abused. People don't like the Bible these days either. Even a lot of Christians can't be bothered to read it. It's male leadership (and ultimately God's leadership) that is so despised by our feminist culture. Biblical marriage is a direct assault on the latter. Renaming things won't change the way people feel any more than labeling Creationism as Intelligent Design will convince public schools to allow for even the possibility of God's existence.

You've probably noticed that polyamory (which is just fornication and adultery relabeled) is on the rise and nobody seems to care, but the minute someone calls for lifelong multiple marriage under strong male leadership, there's a nuclear meltdown! Being the tip of the spear is difficult; being a Christian in more than name only is too. The Bible promises persecution, hatred from the world, and spiritual warfare to all who follow Christ. Therefore, the Biblical Families movement should be prepared to do battle. The battle must be fought with Christ's love and compassion flowing through us, but it is and always will be a battle nonetheless.
 
Joe, you have said a mouth full there for sure.

It is indeed the hatred of authority that drives much of the issues. Children do like parental authority because of sin. Families do not like each other at times and women and children at times hate male/headship authority at times. Men often hate being under pastors/elders who have rule over them in the Lord. Joined men and fathers often hate being under a spiritual leader. People in general hate and despise governmental authority. This type of spirit is running wild among Christendom. Immature saints, babies in the Lord, and pagans who profess Christ but do not truly know him hate authority.

Indeed the world was created for a man, Jesus Christ who is God in the flesh. People ultimately hate his headship over the universe.

As for terms, the terms marriage, husband, and wife are actually secularized terms created out of the Roman statist system. For example the English term wife developed around the 10 to 13th or so century in Europe when Rome had a stronghold over religious and political sectors.

This carried through over into Colonial America then into the United States. The problem then is exacerbated by the fact that translators today use the statist Roman terms to translate the word wife and marriage in our English translations.

Technically speaking if we want to be exact and literal to the original languages, and non-offensive to the Roman State system of today (which includes many Christians who use it), we should not use those terms unless we have used their system. The biblical term gameo from the Greek means to merge, to join, to come together, to become part of the other. The Hebrew term laqah simply it its most base form means "to take, to grasp."

Then when we come to the Greek the word gamos and gameo we can see one base form of the meaning is to have sexual relations, to enter into the conjugal state. But a key to this is that term is at times connected to a legal status.

But there is ANOTHER term used by Christ that is a non-legal status term. It is suzeugnumi. This is the term used by Christ when he says, "let what God has JOINED together man not separate" in Matthew 19. The term means together, yoke, pair, to unite, to join together.

So we have two ideas in the Bible and two ideas in culture.

Biblically the two terms gamos and suzeugnumi mean to unite together. If the legal systems of the day support the union then it can in that day and age wherever the people live they can use those legal terms. But if the legal structures do not agree with the biblical terms then people can unite but just not with or in use of the legal terms. In other words, there is a two layers approach here. Marriage, wife, etc in our culture are English created terms of the 10 to 13th or so century that carry over into today's legal state systems. Those who use the state marriage licenses use their system. I find that system more and more troubling though especially since most all states now have the no fault divorce clause, along with others issues. How can we ever agree to that? We can't if biblical! More so, now we see the state defining their systems as marriage with male homosexuals, something God clearly condemned. So again as biblicists we cannot agree to that either.

So is there a Christian way around it? Certainly. Those who do not use the statist licensure system can still in the words of Christ suzeugnumi with each other (ergon is part of it in that it is mean to work together, to yoke to one another), or join together. We ought to therefore indeed use different terms.

Terms like:
union
covenant union
Christian cohabitation
synergists or synergy
mate
Covenant partner
Christian covenant partner
Christian union
Covenant life partner
so and so forth as others could be thought of to capture the thought.

What ought to happen is up coming Bible translators who make new translations of Scripture they ought to discard for Christians the term husband, wife, and marriage and go back to translate those words literally without legal language playing or bleeding into the translation. They can translate the term aner as man or if by context a "joined man" or a covenant bonded man or a united man. When they come to the word gune for woman they can translate it if needed by context as a united woman, covenantally bonded woman, or a joined woman. This would get rid of the statist influence over the chosen words of the Bible.

If the states want to set up their own licensure systems for some who desire that then so be it.

But Christian, and all people here in this land, today can legally cohabitate without threat of the state punishing it under criminal law. Christians can covenant together without the need of the state licensure system.

It is only a matter of time before the term marriage is useless to us anyway. I think it ought not to be the preferred term today when it is defined as a system where people can walk away with no reason at all. The no fault divorce rules is one reason why so many adopted and pushed for the "Covenant Marriage laws" that did pass in some states. But again, that is still one step short of the right answer. The right answer is for saints to form their unions by way of contract and not through a licensure system as defined the way it is by the state. In essence when people take the legal systems today they are in one sentence saying they need this license by the state to unite with this person. But in doing so they also take to themselves the rules of the state such as no fault divorces and whatever else that attach to it.

There are better ways and there are now better ways to term the relationship, such as with the simple terms listed above.

As corrupt as the ideology is today behind the legal system I do not know why any woman would want to be degraded by the use of the term "wife." It is a higher position and a more holy position to a helpmate, or a covenant woman, or a covenant life partner than the term wife today as so defined by many of the states. If I were a woman and someone called me a wife under the state legal definition I'd be mad and just plain out offended. A woman of God is precious and she is a companion, mate, partner, helpmate, and is precious in every way. The legal systems of the day have degraded her to a status far below what she really is in the eye of God and to a righteous man. A woman today under the statist system has to fear that at any point her man can just say we no longer get along so I want out and the courts will honor that in many places. A wife today as the homosexual crowd grows can be either a male or female depending upon the roles taken by those in other legal unions.

So why desire those terms? I see no use for them and they cause more trouble in the long run for those who use them and for those who try and go through that system while trying to maintain biblical standards.

Christ gave us a system where people can be joined together outside of legal structures. These unions are valid, holy, and becoming more and more the norm in this culture. We would do better therefore to re-translate these terms in our Bible back to its most literal meaning and let the state have its own system for those who desire to be a part of the licensure system.
 
I think we should all keep a careful watch on how Canada and Utah handle these cases - obviously abuse should be prosecuted. There are several FLDS families near me and the wives were all of legal age when they married, the kids are well taken care of, well-behaved and enrolled in our local (pretty decent, actually!) school system, take part in community and athletic activities, and the families run honest, ethical farms and businesses. I pray these families never come under the scrutiny of the State. It broke my heart to see what happened to all those kids on that Texas compound - children ripped from their mother's arms, placed into foster care, and exposed to all kinds of horrible things they wouldn't have, had they been left right where they were. Listening to the moms talk about the effect of television, junk food, fast food, sleazy clothing, and vulgar media imagery, and how these things upset and confused their kids was just heart-wrenching. Some of the kids came home with food allergies and behavioral problems.
I always remember, if they can go after the FLDS, they can go after anybody. Scary. How the state can justify trying to break up families, I just don't know...
 
There is also a case in Texas against Wendell Nielsen. His attorney, Kent Schaffer, is probably going to contest the constitutionality of the bigamy and anti-polygamy laws in this trial. While this approach has been tried before in Utah, it is likely to succeed this time because of a number of recent developments in the courts regarding marriage in general as well as increasing public support. It may take an appeal or two, but I think he will get to a court that will rule these obsolete laws unconstitutional.
 
There hasn't been much coverage on Wendell Nielson here in Texas...Warren Jeffs is still brought up every now and then. The only discussion of late has been who is running their church...living here in Texas when the YFZ compound was raided and then living in Utah last year, I heard about it alot. The coverage from the media sure is different here in Texas than it is in Utah.


Shannon
 
Warren Jeffs will be found guilty of taking child brides...Wendell Nielson married consenting adults which is why it will be a good case to test the bigamy and anti-polygamy laws with. Most I talk to think this WILL be the case that gets these laws taken off the books. Anything you can find on the Wendell Nielson case as it develops would be greatly appreciated.
 
Hi everyone, I've not properly introduced myself. I realize this post is not the place to do so, so I will refrain for the moment and focus on the matter at hand.

I was born and raised in the LDS church. I grew up in the heart of Utah and I am quite familiar with the teachings of the LDS church. I can appreciate statements about abuse, molestation, child brides and the like. I also understand the animosity towards the Mormon faith. I myself am no longer a member.

I don't condone Utah State or the Country's stance on the matter, because more often than not, there are rules that are always broken, and those that are made, to benefit those in power.It's frustrating and sickening really.

It's also interesting that Utah authority seems to focus on child abuse more than anything when it comes to polygamy. Would it be possible that it's because Utah had the highest statistic of child abuse cases in the nation? Hmmm.

I read the posted article which was very informative. I appreciate the posting.

I too believe it is important to keep a careful watch, with what is happening; but don't let it be a hindrance, to what you believe to be true for you.

Just an FYI- here is Document for those that might be interested, from the Utah Attorney General's office called "The Primer" http://attorneygeneral.utah.gov/cmsdocu ... Primer.pdf
This might give some information to those of you wondering a bit about the Utah/Arizona Polygamy background.

Also a link to the LDS Mormon Polygamy Law which talks about contradictions in teachings
http://www.i4m.com/think/polygamy/polygamy_illegal.htm
 
I was just reading some of the information at the links you posted...broke my heart to read some of it - the persecution people have faced due to the ignorance of others has been incredible. I have no doubt why some people have become militant over the issue of polygamy; I would too if the government tore my family apart. I only hope that some of those in power have realized the huge mistake these "laws" were.
 
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