Meat Where is that 'temple' now? The one that the "Abomination of Desolation" takes place?

[Mark C]

Finally,

Muslims and Jews who reject Ἰησοῦς are therefore antichrist, while misguided or fake Christians are displease the Lord in a different way.

Not necessarily. And @Michael Moon is on the right track.

The question is, and remains, "which 'christ'?" Or which Risen Messiah? And are they "preaching another jesus, whom we have NOT preached?"

And my real "bone to pick" boils down to this: if some (of any stripe) are literally calling Him a liar, and teaching an "alternative" to the Real One, and, yes, risk hearing "I never knew you...depart from Me..."
...is it EVEN possible (since some claim to be guided by a 'holy ghost') that they are blaspheming that "Ruach Hakodesh"?

I suspect we might agree that such could be even more serious.

 

[FollowingHim]

I agree with a lot of what you say @Mark C, but here is where we part ways:

To paraphrase Bartato, I am pointing out that "such 'christ-ians' who reject the actual Son of Elohim are 'anti-messiah'...
just like He Himself said.

Terminology, and 'the Name' (as given, I note, since it does have meaning) are important, but not the real issue. His character is, and whether or not he 'lied' and changed His mind, and His Instruction.

God looks at man's heart, not his outward actions only. What he is interested in is sincerity, not getting all the details right. As such, I believe that God will accept a deeply sincere but theologically mistaken Catholic, before a nominal Christian who happens to do all the things right (whatever that means, interpret as per your own understanding) for cultural reasons but never really knew Him in his heart. The latter may hear "I never knew you".

I am obviously aware of this next point, but believe you take it far too far:

The question is, and remains, "which 'christ'?" Or which Risen Messiah? And are they "preaching another jesus, whom we have NOT preached?"

Obviously when people teach incorrectly about Him, they can be said to be "preaching another jesus, whom we have not preached". But that does not mean another Jesus actually exists - there is no other. This simply means that the preacher was wrong. It does not mean that the people who heard him will end up following a different Messiah - it means that they'll attempt to follow the true Messiah but have some of the details wrong (e.g. they may have an incorrect understanding of what His instructions are regarding the law). But they're still trying to follow him, as there is only one of him.

Anyone who tries to follow Messiah, is for Messiah. Anyone who intentionally rejects him is anti-Messiah.

Obviously some of those who follow will have things wrong, and many who reject him will also do so because their understanding of him is wrong. These details are important and very worthy of correction. But neither changes who is for Messiah and who is anti-Messiah.

 

[Earth_is-]

I agree with a lot of what you say @Mark C, but here is where we part ways:

God looks at man's heart, not his outward actions only. What he is interested in is sincerity, not getting all the details right. As such, I believe that God will accept a deeply sincere but theologically mistaken Catholic, before a nominal Christian who happens to do all the things right (whatever that means, interpret as per your own understanding) for cultural reasons but never really knew Him in his heart. The latter may hear "I never knew you".

Would such a person truly remain a Catholic? If that person is seeking the truth - reading his Word - sooner or later they're going to come upon major contradictions between what the Roman Catholic requires a person to believe (otherwise - expect an anathema), and what the Word truly says.

And yes, there are people that come to that conclusion. What do they do? Do they remain in the system that calls the Messiah a liar? That provokes him to anger through their human traditions they've implemented throughout their church? They leave that false church system. A man can not serve two Masters. If a man loves his son or wife or father more than Yahushua - he's not worthy of Yahushua. How much more so for a whoring church system that calls him a liar, causes its people to provoke him to anger, and has raped hundreds of thousands of children?

Matthew 5:20
“But I warn you—unless your righteousness is better than the righteousness of the teachers of religious law and the Pharisees, you will never enter the Kingdom of Heaven! (They were guilty of adding and taking away - choosing human traditions/law over YAHUAH'S laws.)

This is why the road is so narrow. Roman Catholics are part of the lost sheep of Israel. Paul confirms it in his letters to the Romans. You send your kid to college for 4 years - they return back "woke." Imagine sending Israelites (Northern Kingdom) to Exile to the pagan nations - when even before their exile they were acting like pagans - you think they would magically stop acting like pagans? Of course not - they would only increase their paganism to such a degree - you can't distinguish between a gentile and a lost sheep of Israel. The same exact sins that Northern Israel committed against YAHUAH - are the same sins being practiced within the Roman Catholic Church. Protestants are closer to the truth - but there is bad leaven there too. This is why only a remnant - a very narrow road - make it into this Kingdom. And from that small remnant - the smallest family will grow to a thousand people. A thousand people - a mighty nation. Torah will be the law of the Earth, and Righteousness will reign.

 

[FollowingHim]

Would such a person truly remain a Catholic? If that person is seeking the truth - reading his Word - sooner or later they're going to come upon major contradictions between what the Roman Catholic requires a person to believe (otherwise - expect an anathema), and what the Word truly says.

Is Christianity about theological perfection, or serving our Lord in our daily lives?

I'm not thinking about the Catholic theologian who, like Luther, tries to better understand God theologically and comes to the conclusion that the church has things wrong. Theologians are a small minority of the church.

I am talking about the Catholic layperson who wants to serve God so throws their time into serving Him through practical ministry - e.g. helping the poor and sick, pro-life activism and so forth, not bothering themselves about questions of theological detail but just following the traditions they were raised in, as they put their time instead into serving their Lord to the best of the understanding they have been taught.

I believe that person is deeply loved by God. Probably more loved than the person who hides in their office studying and ultimately gets their theology absolutely perfect but because they were too busy studying has had far less of an impact on the world.

 

[FollowingHim]

Because when you think about it, that hypothetical Catholic has actually obeyed Jesus more - has followed Him more (thinking about what he actually did in his earthly ministry) - than the person who has buried himself in books working out what His instructions are rather than getting out there and just doing them. Maybe the person who buried himself in books has avoided sinning as much - but he's probably also avoided pleasing his Lord as much.

 

[Earth_is-]

Is Christianity about theological perfection, or serving our Lord in our daily lives?

I'm not thinking about the Catholic theologian who, like Luther, tries to better understand God theologically and comes to the conclusion that the church has things wrong. Theologians are a small minority of the church.

I am talking about the Catholic layperson who wants to serve God so throws their time into serving Him through practical ministry - e.g. helping the poor and sick, pro-life activism and so forth, not bothering themselves about questions of theological detail but just following the traditions they were raised in, as they put their time instead into serving their Lord to the best of the understanding they have been taught.

I believe that person is deeply loved by God. Probably more loved than the person who hides in their office studying and ultimately gets their theology absolutely perfect but because they were too busy studying has had far less of an impact on the world.

I do think there will be some, because Scripture points to that direction:

Ezekiel 36:24-27 (regarding the 2nd exodus)

24 For I will take you out of the nations; I will gather you from all the countries and bring you back into your own land.
25 Then I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you will be clean. Your filth will be washed away, and you will no longer worship idols. 26 And I will give you a new heart, and I will put a new spirit in you. I will take out your stony, stubborn heart and give you a tender, responsive heart. 27 And I will put my Spirit in you so that you will follow my decrees and be careful to obey my regulations.

An idol doesn't actually have to mean a carved image. A sports team can be an idol. Anything can be really.

End of the day - he will save whom he saves. He won't save or he won't save. A catholic could be part of the Kingdom, but an Israelite may not be. Vice versa.

Ecclesiastes 12:13-14
King James Version
13 Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man.

 

[Earth_is-]

When the book of Revelation talks about the Mother of Abominations - I truly believe it's referring to the Roman Catholic Church System. If that is the case, then consider this verse:

Revelation 18:4
Then I heard another voice calling from heaven, “Come out of her, my people. Do not take part in her sins, or you will be punished with her.

This is the type of stuff they are involved in:

Spanish Church sexual abuse affected 200,000 children, commission finds

The country's first in-depth public inquiry into abuse linked to the Catholic Church presents its findings.

www.bbc.com

Because people remain in her - she remains strong and rich. If the people would leave her - she would lose her power and riches.

She uses her people and her good works to shield herself from the wickedness she's involved in. This is the same tactic that is used in Freemasonry.

If I was living in the wrong time and place - the Roman Catholic Hierarchy would burn me alive at the stake as a heretic. Many would turn their cheek in blindness. It's the same thing they are doing with the perhaps millions of children being sexually abused. Many are turning the other cheek, and don't want to know. Why? Because then their "Holy Church" wouldn't be very "Holy." They might as well be the one's keeping the door locked for their priest. It's a wicked and corrupt organization. Just look how they've painted the Messiah:



We can just plant the seed for the people inside of her - the Scripture - which is the truth - and YAH willing they come out of her, so they don't share in her plagues. Remember to be patient - because likely "He" was patient with us.

 

[Mark C]

I agree with a lot of what you say @Mark C, but here is where we part ways:

God looks at man's heart, not his outward actions only.

"The human heart is deceitful above all, and desperately wicked - who can know it?"

That same prophet (YermeYahu/Jeremiah} had just before written these 'words in red':

"[those] ...'Gentiles' [goyim] shall come unto thee from the ends of the earth, and shall say, Surely our fathers have inherited lies, vanity, and things wherein there is no profit.

Shall a man make gods unto himself, and they are no gods?

Therefore, behold, I will this once cause them to know, I will cause them to know mine hand and my might; and they shall know that My name is YHVH."

I can't help but suggest that they can, and do, craft a 'christ' in their own image. (Yahushua, IMHO, said they would, too.) Which is relevant to what follows in a bit.

What he is interested in is sincerity, not getting all the details right. As such, I believe that God will accept a deeply sincere but theologically mistaken Catholic, before a nominal Christian who happens to do all the things right (whatever that means, interpret as per your own understanding) for cultural reasons but never really knew Him in his heart. The latter may hear "I never knew you".

Who He accepts, and Who He tells, "depart from Me, I never knew you," is above my pay grade.

I don't claim to know their heart. (He also says things like "I will heal whom I will heal," etc)

I only know, and teach, what He SAID, and Wrote down for us. And maybe 'blow a shofar'.

[You know this, I recognize, but it bears repeating for others. I don't claim to tell people that they're "damned," or "going to hell;" just that He promises blessings for obedience to Him. And His Word is True.]

I am obviously aware of this next point, but believe you take it far too far:

Obviously when people teach incorrectly about Him, they can be said to be "preaching another jesus, whom we have not preached". But that does not mean another Jesus actually exists - there is no other.

So far, so good. And I continue to point out, re: the Real One, that "His mama never, not even once, called Him 'jesus.'"

So why does Yahushua Himself warn (Matthew 24, etc) about false 'christs' and say "see that you are not deceived"? *EVEN* - note - the 'elect,' if it went on long enough.

This simply means that the preacher was wrong. It does not mean that the people who heard him will end up following a different Messiah - it means that they'll attempt to follow the true Messiah but have some of the details wrong (e.g. they may have an incorrect understanding of what His instructions are regarding the law). But they're still trying to follow him, as there is only one of him.

Anyone who tries to follow Messiah, is for Messiah. Anyone who intentionally rejects him is anti-Messiah.

OK, still largely in agreement. Do some who intentionally call Him a "liar" know that's what they are doing? Are they culpable?

Look at Matthew 23 again in this context. Why did He - repeatedly - call the 'Pharisees' (who even 'sit in Moses' seat, kinda like a 'papal analogy' ) - "hypocrites."?

Those warnings, I continue to contend, apply well to BOTH 'whoring houses'.

Obviously some of those who follow will have things wrong, and many who reject him will also do so because their understanding of him is wrong. These details are important and very worthy of correction. But neither changes who is for Messiah and who is anti-Messiah.

I'm not sure how to react to that part. If they don't know Him, can they stay on His "narrow path"? (He says the way that leads to destruction is broad, and "many" will go that way!)

And why then does Paul warn, "work out your OWN 'salvation' (His name, note!) with fear and trembling"?

I don't think, on some issues, that we're that far apart. But I am lead to warn, as I contend He did, that, "the Way is narrow," and "few there be that find it."