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Mark C

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Another thread here on BF has recently revisited the question of "legalization" of polygyny, and raised a number of related, and perhaps even confusing, issues.

While I might argue that (given what has been apparently done to the Constitution in general) such efforts are a "waste of time", that is hardly a real issue. After all, free people should be free to do with their own time as they choose.

It's helpful to know what it means to be "free", of course.

So there is a far bigger issue. While I frequently quote any number of Scriptures that bear on this topic (from Yeshua's teaching about "two masters", and "render unto Caesar that which is his" -- so whose are YOU? -- to Joshua's earlier admonition to "choose this day...Whom you will serve")...
...sometimes I get the impression that people don't seem to see "what could be the harm" of accepting Caesar's "blessing" (or 'recognition') for their marriage, or accepting an apparently harmless "benefit" from the State, or acknowledging even an unconstitutional "power" to "define" something (like 'marriage') -- where NO such power is given under our law!


I hope that a real, and very current, example may help.

First a bit of history.

Remember the "Prohibition" of alcohol? (The "18th Amendment", and the "implementing legislation" called the "Volstead Act" of 1920.) To prohibit the consumption of something that was NOT an "enumerated power" in the Constitution (Art. I, Sec. 8, etc) literally once required an Amendment AND an "act of Congress"! Have you ever wondered why not only prohibition, but regulation (FDA, etc) of other things no longer requires that same little 'legal' nicety? (Ditto something as blatantly obvious as firearm prohibition, which, coincidentally, came shortly thereafter, for similar rationale.)

The answer ('jurisdiction', "choice of law", "presumption", "private law", and so on) seems far more complex than it should be; this is by design. (After all, if you are legally incompetent to "represent yourself", you thus need someone Better Than You to handle it for you...)

But ultimately it boils down to a choice. In Whom do we REALLY "trust"? (By your fruits, it shall be seen.)

Back to current events:

Colorado recently passed a referendum "legalizing" so-called "medical marijuana". Some folks see this as a great step toward "freedom", since now they can once again get something that last year they could NOT. (But they forget history: their fathers COULD get "any green herb" or other thing that a free people could once grow in their own garden. What happened, again?)

All they have to do now is go get yet another "license".*

And this "license" (from "Caesar") is a bit unique. It is DIFFERENT from most other licenses, like those to SELL liquor, for example. This one explicitly licenses the PURCHASER. Call it "just another step" down the well-worn path!

No problem, you say? (To which I point out, as did Jefferson and Madison, that every "usurpation of liberty" is done in steps, small steps even, so that what were once "Rights" are eventually converted into "privileges", subject to regulation by your master -- whether you recognize him as such or not. Ask your legal representative what that means. :twisted: )

Now -- look up something called "Codex Alimentarius".

Medical marijuana -- SURPRISE! -- is yet another "Trojan horse", a "gift" that ultimately costs far more than the promised blessing from that false master will ever deliver. **

Presumably well-meaning people have once again been fooled. Thinking that they are expanding "freedom" by "legalizing" something that cannot Lawfully be prohibited to begin with - they blindly play into the hands of the very Beast they claim to fight.

Believe me when I say that soon (VERY soon, in fact) you will find that echinacea, ginger, Vitamin C, Vitamin D, garlic, essential oils, and virtually any so-called 'herb' or 'dietary supplement' you can name will be licensed, regulated, taxed, and ultimately prohibited,(yes, even in "your" own garden) by the same insidious process, and "for your own good", by your 'master' in Washington, DC.

The fact that no such power is enumerated in that quaint old parchment document is, of course, immaterial. The strictures in the Bill of Rights, and the Bible, don't matter at all - for the same reason. The fact that the very act of prohibiting a once-free people from growing their own herbs, their own food, or choosing how to handle their own health is itself prohibited in all those "laws" is equally immaterial.

Why? Freedom of choice, of contract. Both of our sets of "Supreme Law" documents guarantee that choice. YHVH Himself (see Deuteronomy 30:15-20) has made it repeatedly clear, and Yeshua taught it, directly and through many parables.

"Friendship with the world is enmity with God," and those who choose to serve the prince of this world, and prefer his blessings to those of the Father, "already have their reward".

I sometimes joke that this world is an "open Book test". The choice is ours to make. Choose wisely.



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* More than one, actually. Purveyors ALSO require a license, of course!


** Consider James Madison's advice:


"It is proper to take alarm at the first experiment on our liberties.
We hold this prudent jealousy to be the first duty of citizens,
and one of the noblest characteristics of the late Revolution.
The freeman of America did not wait till usurped power had strengthened
itself by exercise, and entangled the question in precedents.
They saw all the consequences in the principle, and they avoided
the consequences by denying the principle."

Whether one is "fer or agin' " the use of pot is not even remotely the issue, of course. The question is Who we serve, and why we so often fail to recognize, as Madison warned, the principles involved in that "usurpation of power" by another master. William Penn said it this way, "Those who will not serve God will serve tyrants."
 
Hello brother,

One thing I find has not been addressed by any of us (those who embrace polygyny) is that of legal jursisdiction over marriage. Apart from the fact that believers should abide by Scripture regarding relationships, this will never be completely happen as long as there are sinners. So, let us say that "Caesar" totally allows for polygyny. However, a family has a big blow up, and everyone goes their separate ways, and no matter how much counsel is given, they all refuseto be reconciled. How is this legally handled? What is your suggestion? I have a few thoughts on this topic - not to say that I have a total answer yet, but this is something that seriously needs to be addressed by us, don't you think?
 
However, a family has a big blow up, and everyone goes their separate ways, and no matter how much counsel is given, they all refuse to be reconciled. How is this legally handled? What is your suggestion? I have a few thoughts on this topic - not to say that I have a total answer yet, but this is something that seriously needs to be addressed by us, don't you think?

Good question, Randy, but I do contend that the answer is within Scripture. And most of post-Biblical Amerika-in-rebellion won't like it any better than they do His Truth about marriage.

To whom are they submitted? (See Romans 6:16, below)

If they have submitted themselves to "Caesar" (or Egypt, or Babylon, or 'the king', or whatever --- and it really doesn't matter whether or not polygyny or any other such issue is involved), then "Caesar" has jurisdiction. No argument, and Caesar knows it. Those who submit to a jurisdiction by taking its license have agreed to abide by the terms of the contract. They'll get "divorced" in accord with Caesar's rules, and will quickly find that Caesar will tell them what he chooses to do with his children (see Exodus 21:4 again) and which property he will give to whom.

They "have their reward".

At the risk of [continuing to appear] controversial, I will add what I submit should be obvious in that respect. If "all" in a "family" utterly "refuse to be reconciled" then one thing is clear: the "head" of that "house" is neither YHVH nor a husband who is submitted to Him.

Such bad examples are used by the 'prince of this world' as excuses to show why God cannot be trusted and there simply MUST be a "safety net", provided by...guess who.

But I really wasn't trying to open an "alternative" marriage thread, because the principle here really is far bigger, which was why I used the health example.

I know Who owns me. I know what He says will "bless" me with health. But those who are slaves to "another master" are about to find out that he owns not only their children and their homes, but their bodies as well.

I only wish I was kidding, because He never has been. We really CANNOT serve two masters.




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Romans 6:16

Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?
 
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What constitutes as "serving"?

How do you define "serving"?

First, I don't "define serving" -- but the Bible does, by using the Hebrew word עָבַד
("abad") which literally means to till, to work, to labor, and to serve.

But read Romans 6:16, quoted above. There are obviously earlier statements (since the original was in Hebrew) but few more clear, in the context of "service to".

To serve is to obey.

When the Bible references anything having to do with serving, isn't that just a relative instruction that just applies to not serving "certain" things?
[...idols...money...]

The word "relative" is a tip-off to the fact that a bit of "political-correctness" is attempting to slip into a statement. Like it or not, His Truth is in fact absolute, or it's not His.

Since idols, like money, "do not speak", some discernment is thus in order for understanding. But He makes the point over and over again, so that it is clear. We are to "serve Him only". (Matthew 4:10, Luke 4:8, referencing Deut. 6:13) The essential 'definition' of idolatry is to put something else before Him; literally 'in His face'.

Are American leaders living in sin...

I detest such phrasing; it's too easy to be accused of being "judgmental" without acquiescing to such subjective and misleading terminology.

Are American leaders...serving their districts, states, and country?

Far better question, and it makes the above distinction clear. So I'll resist the temptation for a cynical, but arguably merited, response and note that any such "blanket" answer suffers from inaccuracy.

WHO are they allegedly "serving"?

If it is NOT God, it is by definition something else. Clearly, 'they' cannot serve two masters.

EVERYTHING else follows from a correct understanding of Who we should serve, and "Him only". Every other question you ask is equally clear, if and only if you read the rest of Scripture in proper context: who is 'the prince of this world'?
What does "friendship of the world is enmity with God" (James 4:4) mean?

As to what "form" of marriage I practice, given that I have answered the question multiple times, in multiple ways, one legitimate answer is now "who wants to know and what business of theirs is it?" I have shown at length (and been ignored, evidently) that the term "legal marriage", in a nation of MEN and NOT OF LAW, is a malapropism. But since you're so cock "sure" that I "and every other married American are enjoying those marital benefits" and have the unmitigated GALL to accuse me of taking what is not mine, and not "practicing" what I claim to believe...I'm going to answer ONCE more, more politely than you deserve:

...no, I am not.

Instead, upon prayerful reflection, I am going to say it this way. Your continued string of ASSUMPTIONS, baseless claims, and hypocritical accusations make it clear why my Savior called some supposed leaders "hypocrites", and warned that those who turn from the world to follow Him would be "hated".

You exemplify why some people should be properly told, as other threads here have observed, that "my marriage is none of your $#&! business". I did NOT ask your permission, seek your blessing, nor accept your "favor". Nor do I need your "help". It is why I do NOT "submit myself" to men such as yourself, much less identify them as "leaders"..either spiritually, or politically. I have "come out of" a system full of such hubris --
"false accusers"..."having a form of godliness but denying the power thereof"...
..."from such turn away".
 
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My original intent in this particular thread was to address the issues of "strings attached" to certain so-called "benefits" of the socialist "safety net". In particular, there are a number of issues associated with licenses and other permissions that I contend (to paraphrase the Declaration of Independence) amount to a "long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object".

Since that concept, and the connection with "health" and free choice, seems to have been lost in the noise here, perhaps a better place for this kind of discussion might be in a "Health" specific thread:

viewtopic.php?f=33&t=1057

(Health supplements, the Codex Alimentarius, Mandated Vaccines, and the like)
 
By receiving a marriage license, the recipients of the license are giving the license-giver the authority to regulate their marriage. This is truly ceding authority form God to man. Only God has the authority to regulate marriage, as it is an institution ordained by Him. Getting a marriage license may seem like a small, inconsequencial step to take, but little steps lead to big problems. In 13th century Scotland, the English Lord of a region had the "authority" to take a man's bride on the marriage night to "promote his seed". It must have been o.k. because it was mandated by the authorities, right? Wrong, of course.

Considering taking an insurance discount: When I signed up for my insurance, they didn't require me to show a marriage certificate to get a marriage discount, and I doubt they checked all 50 states' marriage records to verify I was legally married. If a marriage discount is offered, there is certainly nothing wrong with taking that discount, because the state doesn't say you're married, your covenant before God and with your spouse says you're married.

Considering the tax issue: Again, I don't believe that I ever had to show proof of a marriage license to take the married exemption. Does the federal government only recognize marriages "ordained" by the State? I'm not a tax law expert, so I can't answer that adequately.

I think the heart of this issue is that we shouldn't be pandering to the government to legalize any type of marriage, as this gives power to the government that they don't deserve.
 
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You don't just take it upon yourself to go ahead and illegally do something that would jeopardize or risk you and your family being prosecuted especially for a practice that is NOT a requirement to serve God.

Ah, here is the problem. For our family, polygamy is very much a requirement to serve God. While God does not call everyone to polygamy, He most definitely called our family to it, and not obeying God for fear of disobeying a "law" would be sin in our case. Does this mean we yell from the mounain tops our lifestyle? No. The Bible says in Proverbs, "The prudent man concealeth knowledge." There is no reason to tell people our business if it isn't their business.

We are asking the Lord for direction and discretion on how to handle this possibly sticky situation. I know that He will guide my husband with wisdom and direction. Until then, we'll live our lives for the glory of the Lord.
 
You don't just take it upon yourself to go ahead and illegally do something that would jeopardize or risk you and your family being prosecuted especially for a practice that is NOT a requirement to serve God.

Deut30 did a fine job of pointing out the error of the above hubris. But I feel remiss in not pointing out the Scriptural ignorance of such a claim as well.

It is not just merely wrong to claim that ANYTHING which God ordains in His Word, and not just ONCE, but REPEATEDLY, is "NOT a requirement" to serve Him! It is a clear violation of the prohibition against idolatry (think about it) and the explicit strictures of such things as Deuteronomy 4:2, and 12:32. (and see the End of the Book as well!)

Who are you to rewrite His requirements! The Pharisees were called "Hypocrites" by the Savior Himself for exactly the same heinous pride.

But the statement is utterly WRONG, as well!

There are AT LEAST THREE explicit places in Scripture which without question CAN REQUIRE a man to take more than one wife!

The "Law of the Levirate" in Deut. 25:5 is the most well-known, and obvious, among those who have any familiarity with the issue. But there are others! The requirement for a man who defiles a virgin (note that his marital status is NOT an issue) to take to wife (and NEVER put her away) is another.

But the requirement of I Cor. 7 (esp. v 10-16) is perhaps the one most relevant in today's 'post-BIblical' culture. Husbands whose wives treacherously "depart" from them are "not under bondage"; many have, and will, marry a second wife rather than "burn" in sin. But Paul was hardly writing any "new" command there when he interpreted the obvious to the Corinthians: such a man literally has two wives, whether the one in rebellion ever returns or not.

Some people have expressed "fear" of persecution because this society does not respect the Word of God, or His Law. It is important to remember that, by far, the most repeated commandment in all of Scripture is "Fear NOT!"

We are warned that those who follow Him WILL be persecuted, and even that "the world" will "hate" us. He warned us that it would not be easy, and even said more than once that those who would not love Him and His Word more than the world were not worthy to follow after Him.

Any man who takes it upon himself to attempt to love and cover even a first wife should be aware of the obligation he seeks to enter. Those who in fear love the world more than they do Him have no business thinking about even doing so once, much less for a second wife.
 
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